How to Talk to Your Jewish Friends About Israel

[imported_dna]

Wow, talk about a book from the Nazi playbook; check out the cartoons they have in the papers right here.

 

[morkinva]

The Ringworm Children

[...]

In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba, flew to America and returned with seven x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.

They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60 million liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today.

To fool the parents of the victims, the children were taken away on "school trips" and their parents were later told the x-rays were a treatment for the scourge of scalpal ringworm. 6,000 of the children died shortly after their doses were given, while many of the rest developed cancers that killed thousands over time and are still killing them now. While living, the victims suffered from disorders such as epilepsy, amnesia, Alzheimer's disease, chronic headaches and psychosis.

[...]

 

[ElFenix]

i very much doubt that arabs are anti-semites

 

[imported_dna]

I've never heard about this Ringworm thing, but a commentator on that page already raises doubts:

My father, who died when I was 13 (heart damage from Rheumatic fever when was a juvenile) had very thin hair. Do you know WHY he had thin whispy hair. Because as a youngster he had ringworm and it was treated with x-rays. Not in Israel but here in the US. IT WAS A STANDARD TREATMENT AT THE TIME.

As a child myself, when we were buying shoes, know how shoe stores did it? They had x-ray devices so the fit of the shoes (whether toes were being dsplaced, etc.) could be checked. Not for poor kids but the high end stores where the kids of the middle and upper classes were fitted for shoes.

The doctors, the shoe stores, etc. were not "experimenting on kids" but following what at the time was THOUGHT to be best practice. We now treat radiation more seriously, restrict exposure. I call into question that the author of the original article is really ignorant of the fact that these things WERE considered "best medicine" at the time.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
i very much doubt that arabs are anti-semites

Well they didn't gang up with the Nazis and flush the Jewish people from Palestine anyway, unlike one Zionist group shamefully tried to do the Palestinians:

n 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

 

[imported_dna]

Lehi was on the fringe, an extremist, small group; just the fact that they thought of helping the Nazis tells you something (at that point perhaps they didin't know what Germany was doing).

Anyway, your claim of "tried to do" is quite lame, since the paragraph you quote doesn't even mention a plan with the Nazis to get rid of the Arabs. Additionally, look at the facts: today there are more Arabs in Israel, than there were in 1948, while the Jewish population in the Arab countries has been reduced to no more than 1% of what it used to be.

Get your facts straight before accusing all the Jews in Israel of this "alleged" plan to ged rid of the Palestinians.

However, thanks for giving me the chance to post this, of how history repeats itself:

2006 - Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah:

"I have a special message to the Arabs of Haifa, to your martyrs and to your wounded. I call you to leave this city. I hope you do this. ... Please leave so we don't shed your blood, which is our blood."

1948 - Palestinian journalist describes Arab leaders action in 1948:

"To the [Arab] Kings and Presidents: Poverty is killing us... yet you are still searching for the way to provide aid... like the armies of your predecessors in the year of 1948, who forced us to leave [Israel], on the pretext of clearing the battlefields of civilians... "
(Fuad Abu Higla, columnist official PA daily Al Hayat Al Jadida, in an article before an Arab Summit, critical of Arab leaders for a series of failures. Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, March 19, 2001)

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: dna
Anyway, your claim of "tried to do" is quite lame, since the paragraph you quote doesn't even mention a plan with the Nazis to get rid of the Arabs.

They proposed the alliance, and then after the Nazi's turned them down they went ahead and flushed the flush most of the Palestinians out of what became Israel all the same. But as history shows, they tried to do it with Nazi support. And they knew what the Nazis were doing, that is why they suggested they could assist in evacuating the Jewish population of Europe. Again, quoted from the Wiki article:

common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi).

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: morkinva
The Ringworm Children

So other than so LAUGHABLE claims by antisemites and Israeli bashers, what was the point of that article?

There was not in fact a full understanding of safe radiation levels at the time, and the death rate was not close to what was claimed in the article, and assertions about it being a form of eugenics or "genocide" are ROFL type funny except for the fact some people are apparently taking it seriously.

By the way, the ACTUAL number who were treated in this way was about 20,000.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/310/6976/350/a

 

[imported_dna]

So the Lehi was also behind Nasrallah's message last month?
Interesting Indeed.....

Here are some more pictures of who learned from the Nazis.
And I see you missed that video with the Mufti meeting Hitler, which is a lot more significant than a fringe group meeting some junior Nazi in Lebanon.

 

[kylebisme]

I didn't suggest Lehi was behind Nasrallah's message last month, but rather pointed out the fact that they tried to team up with the Nazis.

 

[yllus]

I consider Israel's current actions to be in the best interests of peace, so I guess I have nothing to talk to my Jewish friends and coworkers about.

 

[imported_dna]

I'm starting to think you're as ambiguous and vague as Lemon Law. Furthermore, you are using some twisted logic to associate that event with the Nakba, even though I've already provided you many bits of information that show that the Arabs were urged to leave, just as Nasrallah has done so recently.

 

[kylebisme]

IF you find something I say abiguious, feel free to ask questions.

IF you find something I say ambiguous, feel free to ask questions. As for the expulsion of the Palestinians, when we left off on that you were simply speculation on justifications for massacre that started it, but the history is well documented, and to put it simply:

Menachem Begin, on the other hand, was unrepentant. He told The New York Jewish Newsletter in October 1960 that "The massacre was not only justified, but there would not have been a state of Israel without the victory at Deir Yassin."

Deir Yassin was not the first or the largest massacre of Palestinians, but the advancing Zionist forces used it to frighten unarmed Palestinians into fleeing for their lives. Thus started the eviction of more that 750,000 Palestinians from their lands in 1948. It iscarved in Palestinian collective memory because it has come to symbolize Palestinian dispossession.

http://www.deiryassin.org/byboard7.html

 

[tommywishbone]

Oh no... somebody has played the Holocaust card! Game... set .... match.

 

[ForumMaster]

i'll put it like this. i am not the only jew here but one of the few israelis. and you know what? i don't support 100% what israel does.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: tommywishbone
Oh no... somebody has played the Holocaust card! Game... set .... match.

When comparing Nazis to Israelis... I'd say it would be necessary to compare what the nazis did to what the israelis did.

Since the Nazis did the holocaust... you'd really have to bring it up as part of the comparison don't you?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
IF you find something I say abiguious, feel free to ask questions.

So why did you link the Lehi to the Nakba?

As for the expulsion of the Palestinians, when we left off on that you were simply speculation on justifications for massacre that started it, but the history is well documented, and to put it simply:

Repeating it over and over again doesn't make it true ? there's simply too much evidence to indicate that there was no expulsion. As for the link you keep repeating, well, I'll have to look into that, but if you'd like I'll be more than willing to pull out some Arab-led massacres of pre-1948.

 

[kylebisme]

Denying it doesn't make it any less than true, and Lehi played a major roll in chasing both the Palestinians and the British out of what became Israel. As for the website I quoted from, please do read up on it. Here is a page on the people who run it and here is a page on the deniers.

 

[imported_dna]

Here's a quote from Begin's book:

"To counteract the loss of Dir Yassin, a village of strategic importance, Arab headquarters at Ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by Irgun troops of women and children in the village. Certain Jewish officials, fearing the Irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this Arab gruel propaganda to smear the Irgun. An eminent Rabbi was induced to reprimand the Irgun before he had time to sift the truth. Out of evil, however, good came. This Arab propaganda spread a legend of terror amongst Arabs and Arab troops, who were seized with panic at the mention of Irgun soldiers. The legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of Israel. The `Dir Yassin Massacre' lie is still propagated by Jew-haters all over the world."

Myabe the specter Deer Yasin had some effect, but claiming that that is the sole reason
why hunderds of thousands left ? that's is just absurd.

Like I said, don't start pointing towards this or that event, because there were other causes that led up to it. It was the Arabs that started attacking Jews and forced them to arm themselves and to shield their buses (against bullet and grenade attacks).

The Arab Revolt of 1936-1939 is one example.

 

[kylebisme]

From the Rebuttal of Deniers on the page I linked:

Erskine Childers, then an Irish journalist, in 1961 challenged the conventional wisdom that Palestinian refugees fled their homes in 1948 due to radio broadcasts by the Arab states and political forces urging them to leave. He did so by examining the actual records of the broadcasts in the British Museum. He found no such orders to leave, in fact he found orders to remain, and published the results of his examination in the London Spectator ("The Other Exodus," London Spectator, 12 May 1961).

And I'm not saying it was the sole reason by any means, but rather, as is explained later on the page:

The ZOA report also confirms that there was a clear motive by the Irgun to exploit civilian deaths for the sake of sowing terror among the Arabs so that they would flee. Finally, the Haganah also publicized the Deir Yassin atrocity (whether it was one is irrelevant) yet later incorporated the Deir Yassin attackers into its own fighting forces (note 74). Again, without having to listen to any Arab sources who might be said to embellish in that irrational oriental way, the Arabs of Palestine were confronted by a military that contained the same forces-?operating with impunity?that committed what the main Jewish authorities characterized openly as a horrible atrocity with 250 men, women, and children cruelly slaughtered. Would it require oriental logic or Arab rhetoric, or the elusive Arab evacuation orders, to cause Arab villagers to flee?

And of course there is much more to the history as well, but that does nothing to change the fact that approximately three quarters of a million Palestinians were driven from their homes in order to form Israel.

 

[imported_dna]

Well, that's what were dabating isn't it? Whether 750k people just up and left because a single massacre.
Seems overblown to me, unless, as Begin said, the good old Arab media sought to exploit the event, and backfired, royally.
If you wish to argue that, then I can simply say that the Jews should have run a long time before that, since the Arabs started conducting attacks on them well before Deer Yasin.

 

[imported_dna]

By the way, just because Erskine Childers didn't find a recording, doesn't not mean it didn't happen; all those quotes I gave you of prominent people (like Khaled al-Azm) say otherwise.
Remeber, there weren't 10 different TV crews at every spot, in the same manner that Hezbollah has arranged in this past conflict. Times were different back then ? you couldn't just pop a cassette into the tape-recorer and capture the sounds of your favorite radio station.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Originally posted by: ForumMaster
i'll put it like this. i am not the only jew here but one of the few israelis. and you know what? i don't support 100% what israel does.

Exactly, there is too much of a stereotype that just because one is Jewish, they are supportive of Israel.

This thread is totally twisted. There is a strong difference between the miliary action being taken by Israel against it's surrounding nations, and the killings made by the Nazi government of Germany where over 6 millions people were killed. Let us not forget that not only people of the Jewish Faith were killed (though the vast majority) but Gypsies, Homosexuals, Colored people, basically anyone who did not fit Hitler's image of a "perfect" human being were persecuted. Obviously the word "Genocide" means nothing to you people :roll:

 

[Lemon law]

To dna,

Consider the following-----------very few people have a complete undertstanding of history--or even close to it---and they react emotionally. Even to this day, there is no evidence to say Spain or Spanish agents blew up the battleship Maine in Havana harbor--more likely it was a boiler explosion ---yet remember the Maine was still the cry that started the Spanish American war. Nor is it probable that Marie Antonette ever said let them eat cake---yet just the rumor was enough to be enough to give the mob extra energy when the French revolution started.

You try to impose your version of revisionist history when emotions rule the day----has it ever occured to you that Israel just better start defusing the emotions and negative perceptions before things get out of hand.-------------does that simple request ever cross your mind????????????---ever.--------or does it ever occur to you that Israel has some people angry for a valid reason?????????-------ever.

I will grant that the arab side is also deeply wrong also-------but the Palistinians are still an Israelie problem-----and when their lot becomes a model for the arab world to emulate,
maybe this problem will die of its own weight.

 

[Lemon law]

Thank you Rockinacoustic,

But I am disturbed to see Israel lurch rightward---and its now far to the right of where it was in those heady days when peace looked possible--with Arifat on the verge of signing
a peace deal---------much water under the dam since-----what is your guesses on how to solve this arab Israelie problem long term?

Or to increase any hope in Israelie poltics that any solution other than a military one is possible?