How to Talk to Your Jewish Friends About Israel

[Rockinacoustic]

I don't see any end in sight. The aggressive actions being taken by both sides is truely hurting any chance for peace. While I believe Israel has every right to defend itself, it cannot expect any progress being made by infiltrating Lebanon to stop Hezbollah. Yet at the same time they cannot just let both radical terrorist organizations and willing arabic countries push them to the ground. The same can be said for the other side too, it's a mix of two different ideologies both claiming the same Holy Land. This situation is a catch 22 and unfortuantley as long as these two ideologies continue to co-exist, I can't see a peaceful end in sight...

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: dna
Well, that's what were dabating isn't it? Whether 750k people just up and left because a single massacre.
Seems overblown to me, unless, as Begin said, the good old Arab media sought to exploit the event, and backfired, royally.
If you wish to argue that, then I can simply say that the Jews should have run a long time before that, since the Arabs started conducting attacks on them well before Deer Yasin.

Again, there was a lot more to it than just that attack, as what I quoted explains.

But if you want more general terms, how about:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?"

Originally posted by: dna
By the way, just because Erskine Childers didn't find a recording, doesn't not mean it didn't happen..

The records show the oposite of what you claim happened.

 

[Cooler]

I am jewish and I dont talkabout it to my jewish friends.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The records show the oposite of what you claim happened.

You have yet to counter all the other things, such what Khaled al-Azm or King Hussein wrote. I guess they were also Zionist agents, eh?

Khaled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Khaled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387:

"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."

Jordan's King Hussein, Associated Press, Jan 1960:

"Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner. They have not looked into the future. They have no plan or approach. They have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, criminal."

 

[kylebisme]

How about that quote from David Ben-Gurion I posted before:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?"

http://www.brightonpalestinecampaign.org/pdfs/Articles/Jews%20For%20Justice.pdf

Surely you aren't going to try and tell me he wasn't a Zionist.

 

[imported_dna]

Sure, after the war in 1948 Israel did end up with more than what the Partition Plan has allocated.
The man was simply was saying how he thought they looked at the situation. I'm surprised the Palestinians never claimed tha the Brits stole their land after WW1.
Your real problem is that you'll be hard pressed to prove that any Palestinian lost any property pre-1948; I'd really like to see some evidence of Jews going into a village, kicking everybody out, and then taking over the land. Now that is stealing, which is quite different than abandoning your property.

In any case, it's time for you to address the quotes I provided.

 

[alejandroAT]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

Any idiot who would use the term "jewish-nazi" needs to go back and learn history, reread what a "nazi" is, and more importantly what the Nazis did. There is absolutely no comparison between jews and nazis. My guess is you're one of those parotting turds, who is perfectly happy to throw around shock mantra just to piss off the people you ignorantly argue with.

-Max

this is exactly why this thread started. because evrytime someone is critical agaisnt israel, jews come out and start swearing and insulting and calling ppl turds and what have you. People are very very tired of this behaviour. Just because some monsters did horrible things to your ancestors that doesnt give you any right to do the same to another race of people and come out morally clean. People call israle nazzi because of things like phosphorus bombs that israle is using in lebanon. Have you seen a victim of a phosphorus attack? its just like a gas chamber!!!! You burn from the inside out and your remains are scourged beyond recognition. BUT YOU WONT COMMENT ON THAT WILL YOU???? NOOOOO.....god forbids....Israel is always right. All hail god's chosen people that their moral and sense of justice prevails above all.

i have nothing against jews, mind you. I have alot of beef agaisnt Israel but not against jews. I have the basic intelligence to refrain from making large generalisations. As far as i'm concerned the jewish ppl is victim to the manipulative forces that control the state of Israel. I just hate to see this people come to the point where they support fully the crimes that their generals are commiting. Fear does that. Americans were taken to invade Iraq under fear. After they snapped out of it they saw the error of their ways and now they do not support it anymore. Hell, they even confront the goverment on press confereneces. I just hope that jews wake up and confront their goverment too before things turn worse. recent poles have shown that this is already in effect. You avergae israely citizen cannot tolerate phosphorus burned babies killed in their name.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
People call israle nazzi because of things like phosphorus bombs that israle is using in lebanon.

I'll comment on it, just provide some proof.

 

[alejandroAT]

well, i can start looking for it. give me some time. I had the "luck" to see it directly on the news, bodies and everything. We do get this sort of information over here. We dont have Fox network.........yet.

these links may tell you something and then again they may not according to what is your definition of "accurate" news and what is considered "proof". If you expect to get a written note from the Israel Army listing their bombs and ingredients then i m afraid you wont find it.
Some ppl may argue that these victims throwed it upon themselves so they could then accuse israel.......go figure.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/25/1442242
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14181.htm
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/072506A.shtml
http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2005...ael-used-white-phosphorus-lest-we.html
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77507

thiese links is what i found in 2 minutes time.

and i quote this in particular:

AMY GOODMAN: Independent journalist Dahr Jamail is in Beirut and has spoken to some of those doctors. We reached him earlier today.

DAHR JAMAIL: Yesterday, I went to the Beirut University Hospital. It's one of the larger hospitals in Beirut, and I was speaking with the assistant director there. His name is Bilal Masri. And he told me -- first off, we were talking about the casualty situation, and then this led into the white phosphorus situation in Southern Lebanon. And first off, he said that they were receiving very many casualties there, mostly from the south, being brought into them by the Red Crescent and Lebanese Red Cross, and that 55% of all the casualties in Beirut, according to Mr. Masri, were children 15 years or younger.

He then said another startling statistic, that 30% of all the casualties are dying. And this was an extremely high casualty rate, far higher than anything they saw during the Lebanese Civil War, meaning that of every one hit, 30% of the people are dying outright. And I asked him why, and he said that it's because the Israelis are using these bombs that can penetrate through bomb shelters, that there?s been so many refugees seeking shelter in basements or in bomb shelters, and the Israelis are bombing the bomb shelters. Warplanes are bombing the bomb shelters where refugees are hiding. And also there was such a disproportionate number of children being killed and wounded, because children, he said, were the least able to really escape when the bombings began. Children were the least able to really effectively run away and get to safety themselves.

can you imagine the situation if we didnt have the internet? You lot in the US would have absolutely no idea what was going on. The "dark side" holds the media by the cojones! A visiting american-jew (in greece by the way) was eager to arrive so i could fill him in on the situation!!!!!! he simply hadnt heard ANYTHING about the children, the bombed red cross ambulances, the works!

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
thiese links is what i found in 2 minutes time.

Yeah, I also hit the one (before asking you for proof) where the PM/President claimed it was used. However, I don't trust anything that guy says after he had his little air-raid revision.

You won't hear me saying that these people put something on themselves, but I don't see anything conlusive here; just a bunch of accusation. And after having photos "touched-up" by independent Lebanse journalists, the circus in Qana, allegations of helicopters attack on ambulances, and clear admission by foreign journalists that Hezbollah was putting on a show at every possible turn, well, then, I guess I'm a little skeptic.

Also, I'm not a doctor, so I can't asses the kid's condition (in the video), and since I've already seen a video where a doctor coached a Palestinian guy, I'm not gonna believe what this doctor say. Watch the video I gave you, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[alejandroAT]

you will find that your average muslim is much less likely to engage in lying than your average christian. These people are simple people, religious people, with a sense of honesty and fear of god which is uknown to us "westerners". You must know of course that fanatic muslims (suicide bombers and what have you) are an extremely small minority.

the following quotes seem to have been made by educated men far from hasty and irrashional behaviour:

Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds.

He has taken 24 samples from the bodies to test what killed them. He believes it is a chemical.

Cham said the bodies of some victims were "black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else."

We are seeing abnormal burns, different from wars we've seen in the past. The corpses of these victims are shrinking to half their normal size. You think it is the corpse of a child at first but it turns out to be a grown man," said Raed Salman Zeinedine, director of Tyre Government Hospital.
"We've never seen anything like it but what the causes are I don't want to speculate. We have no scientific answer."

EDIT::: watched the video.....i have to agree 100% that the whole situation outside the outpost was a badly staged circus. These fools are doing irreversible damage to the palestinian cause. They think they help their cause but they are uneducated fools. This is going to backfire badly. But i can also understand them a bit. It is their only weapon. They have been left to their fates by their useless leaders and they are caught in the middle.....thats all they can do. They cant fire their rifles at the israely cause then they'll get attacked by tanks. So they fire them at walls and then film an aleged conflict. They are dead wrong. But u have to understand that these scenes are not the same as the rubbles of destroyed cities and towns. The casualties and other reports that come from the warzone are being monitored by independent organisations and not western media groups out for a quick buck. The red cross ambulance that was bombed is not the same as this bunch of bad actors.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
you will find that your average muslim is much less likely to engage in lying than your average christian. These people are simple people, religious people, with a sense of honesty and fear of god which is uknown to us "westerners". You must know of course that fanatic muslims (suicide bombers and what have you) are an extremely small minority.

I'm sorry to shatter that naive image, but you should become familiar with the concept of Taqiyya. Unfortunately, the link I gave you doesn't really do justice to the use being done today, and that is a Muslim can lie to any non-believer; you should look it up.

Also, take a look at the video links I posted in messages in this thread.

as for the video it doesnt seem to stream. i m waiting for it to download completely before watching it. Will comment tomorrow as it is already 6 in the morning and i have to withdraw.

You will see that it is most enlightening.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
Just because some monsters did horrible things to your ancestors that doesnt give you any right to do the same to another race of people and come out morally clean.

I'm sorry, i didn't realize the Israeli's had the intention to wipe out the entire palestinian population.

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
People call israle nazzi because of things like phosphorus bombs that israle is using in lebanon. Have you seen a victim of a phosphorus attack? its just like a gas chamber!!!! You burn from the inside out and your remains are scourged beyond recognition.

So each time an (insert country here) soldier shoots an (insert country here) soldier straight in the forehead, is he a "Nazi"? They did it thousands of times to the people they persecuted. War is not pretty, but comparing the advances in warfare today to parallels of war's past does not justify the rather "extreme" comparison you are making.

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
BUT YOU WONT COMMENT ON THAT WILL YOU???? NOOOOO.....god forbids....Israel is always right. All hail god's chosen people that their moral and sense of justice prevails above all.

No, Israel is not one bit right in their actions. Neither side is. They are two different societies that will never be able to co-exist so long as they both claim posession of the holy land, and I don't see thousands of years of religious ideologies being told otherwise anytime soon.

 

[winr]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Thank you Rockinacoustic,

But I am disturbed to see Israel lurch rightward---and its now far to the right of where it was in those heady days when peace looked possible--with Arifat on the verge of signing
a peace deal---------much water under the dam since-----what is your guesses on how to solve this arab Israelie problem long term?

Or to increase any hope in Israelie poltics that any solution other than a military one is possible?

Arifat was on the verge of signing a peace deal??

I havent heard that before.

Regards.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: dna
Sure, after the war in 1948 Israel did end up with more than what the Partition Plan has allocated.
The man was simply was saying how he thought they looked at the situation. I'm surprised the Palestinians never claimed tha the Brits stole their land after WW1.
Your real problem is that you'll be hard pressed to prove that any Palestinian lost any property pre-1948; I'd really like to see some evidence of Jews going into a village, kicking everybody out, and then taking over the land. Now that is stealing, which is quite different than abandoning your property.

In any case, it's time for you to address the quotes I provided.

I am adressing your quotes, "that man" was Israel's first Prime Minister and like said "we came here and stole their country."

 

[winr]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
*************************************************************************
you will find that your average muslim is much less likely to engage in lying than your average christian. These people are simple people, religious people, with a sense of honesty and fear of god which is uknown to us "westerners". You must know of course that fanatic muslims (suicide bombers and what have you) are an extremely small minority.
**************************************************************************
the following quotes seem to have been made by educated men far from hasty and irrashional behaviour:

Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds.

He has taken 24 samples from the bodies to test what killed them. He believes it is a chemical.

Cham said the bodies of some victims were "black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else."

We are seeing abnormal burns, different from wars we've seen in the past. The corpses of these victims are shrinking to half their normal size. You think it is the corpse of a child at first but it turns out to be a grown man," said Raed Salman Zeinedine, director of Tyre Government Hospital.
"We've never seen anything like it but what the causes are I don't want to speculate. We have no scientific answer."

EDIT::: watched the video.....i have to agree 100% that the whole situation outside the outpost was a badly staged circus. These fools are doing irreversible damage to the palestinian cause. They think they help their cause but they are uneducated fools. This is going to backfire badly. But i can also understand them a bit. It is their only weapon. They have been left to their fates by their useless leaders and they are caught in the middle.....thats all they can do. They cant fire their rifles at the israely cause then they'll get attacked by tanks. So they fire them at walls and then film an aleged conflict. They are dead wrong. But u have to understand that these scenes are not the same as the rubbles of destroyed cities and towns. The casualties and other reports that come from the warzone are being monitored by independent organisations and not western media groups out for a quick buck. The red cross ambulance that was bombed is not the same as this bunch of bad actors.

I must reply:
************************************************************************
Quote:

you will find that your average muslim is much less likely to engage in lying than your average christian. These people are simple people, religious people, with a sense of honesty and fear of god which is uknown to us "westerners"
*************************************************************************

This is simply not so, all people everywhere in the world are prone to lying or not lying.

I am a westerner, I am color blind, religious blind, gender blind.

I am light bright and almost white.

I respect all people , unless they disrespect me, then I ignore them, I dont hate them or whatever.

Peace :sun:

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Originally posted by: winr
I respect all people , unless they disrespect me, then I ignore them, I dont hate them or whatever.

:thumbsup: this thread needs more free-minded people

 

[alejandroAT]

Originally posted by: Rockinacoustic

Originally posted by: winr
I respect all people , unless they disrespect me, then I ignore them, I dont hate them or whatever.

:thumbsup: this thread needs more free-minded people

nicely said but completely off topic. Its the easiest thing in the world to say i like everyone and rid yourself of all critical thought and responsibility. We post here to criticise, put our opinions forward so that we may learn from others. If i say something that is not true, i would like to get an educated counter opinion so i may correct myself and be less ignorant in the future. saying something like "I respect all people , unless they disrespect me, then I ignore them, I dont hate them or whatever" is all very nice but completelly irrelevant. I do not mean to be disrespectful.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I am adressing your quotes, "that man" was Israel's first Prime Minister and like said "we came here and stole their country."

You keep taking his words out of context to suit your needs, so stop twisting them.

 

[imported_dna]

The casualties and other reports that come from the warzone are being monitored by independent organisations and not western media groups out for a quick buck. The red cross ambulance that was bombed is not the same as this bunch of bad actors.

First of all, you should've posted a new message; these edits are sometimes hard to pick up, and are, in my opinion, for the purpose of fixing spelling/grammar, or adding a link to a top level post. Good thing someone replied to your edit.

Anyway, your assertion that the reports are monitored is just hilarious; I've already mentioned the doctored photographs, and gave you a link to what is sure one of many over-estimates, as well as the media's insatiable appetite for sensational photos or headlines ? I can't recall ever seeing a headline stating "20 unaccounted for", while headlines like "20 dead after raid" were omnipresent.

The red cross ambulance is just as bad, since they claimed it was struck by a helicopter missile, and that was why ther was a big hole on the roof; however, truth is that in that hole the ventilation system was installed. Granted, the roof looked bad, but not helicopter-missile bad, which would have obliterated it.

Regardless, the AP and Reuters have proven just as money-driven as the Western media that you accuse; they did zero review of the pictures, or their description, which is assigned by the photographer. So far, both pictures and description have been found to be suspect.

Google Adnan Hajj, and you will see.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT

Originally posted by: Rockinacoustic

Originally posted by: winr
I respect all people , unless they disrespect me, then I ignore them, I dont hate them or whatever.

:thumbsup: this thread needs more free-minded people

nicely said but completely off topic. Its the easiest thing in the world to say i like everyone and rid yourself of all critical thought and responsibility. We post here to criticise, put our opinions forward so that we may learn from others. If i say something that is not true, i would like to get an educated counter opinion so i may correct myself and be less ignorant in the future. saying something like "I respect all people , unless they disrespect me, then I ignore them, I dont hate them or whatever" is all very nice but completelly irrelevant. I do not mean to be disrespectful.

I know, completely irrelevant on the scale we are talking about, but nonethless a good philosophy. Besides, if more people had his approach this thread wouldn't have made it past the first page

 

[Lemon law]

When it comes down to it, the Emily Post ediquittee advice is not to discuss politics and religion. Its just not all that polite in ordinary conversation.

But since this is a forum on just that subject---if you wish to avoid being flamed---don't express an opinion---but once you do, it goes with the terroritory that
some will disagree.

And since the subject of mid-east peace does effect our lives, even if we live thousands of miles away, every opinion has some validity.

We must somewhat also recognize that all will try to advance their points with seemingly logical arguments---but its often the case that some of us are biased as we
eagarly embrace ideas that support our position and reject ideas that don't. Which somewhat proves that we are all pretty emotional about this subject.

But as many Psycholgists are fond of pointing out, an emotion is as valid as a fact. We certainly have no shortage of emotional Israelies and no shortage of posters giving very valid reasons why Palistinians and Lebanese have reasons to be emotional.

But given the high emotion level, can we at least agree that unchecked emotions may well lead to unrational responces that prove a danger to world peace?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I am adressing your quotes, "that man" was Israel's first Prime Minister and like said "we came here and stole their country."

You keep taking his words out of context to suit your needs, so stop twisting them.

The context was posted previously and it suits the truth. Again:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?"

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The context was posted previously and it suits the truth. Again:

You just don't give up do you? Either provide the context, or shut up.

And don't forget to respond the quotes I provided, unless you'd like me to adopt your tactics of repetitive posting. (although I don't really think you have a reply)

(at least I have the decency not to clutter up the forum with the same quote over and over again)

 

[kylebisme]

The context is adressed in the Jews for Justice PDF I linked above.