How to Talk to Your Jewish Friends About Israel

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
So much for his grand spin.

He wasn't answering your useless question.

I was talking about TheSnowman, and the questions aren't useless, but quite revealing that these people want to bitch and whine about rights an justice; however, when you counter them with something real and concrete -- poof -- they vanish. He already posted several messegase while ignoring what I asked him to address.

Ain't that right TheSnowman?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: kobymu

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: kobymu

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Quite the opposite, I don't want to see the rest of the world devolve back to a continuing land grab with any resistance sighted as justification of collective punishment and military occupation. Holding the rest of the world to the same criteria as Israel would quite simply be World War 3; do you all have such low moral standards as to want that?

*cough*Iraq*cough*.

I ask if you want WW3 and your answer is "Iraq"?

You blaming Israel that it is starting WW3 because Israel:

Not at all, I'm simply pointing out what would happen if we held the rest of the world to the standards of Israel, and asking if you all really want that.

 

[Aisengard]

dna, I wasn't talking about your question, I was addressing TheSnowman after the first line.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Not at all, I'm simply pointing out what would happen if we held the rest of the world to the standards of Israel, and asking if you all really want that.

The standers which Israel is expected to act upon or IS acting upon?
Do I want, what exactly?
*scratch head*

That confused the hell out of me.
Can you rephrase that?

 

[kylebisme]

The standards by which Israel does operate on, I'm asking if you would like the rest of the world conduct itself as Israel does. More directly; do you think it would be good to have all nations commandeering whatever lands they choose and sighting any resistance to that as justification for collective punishment and military occupation?

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The standards by which Israel does operate on, I'm asking if you would like the rest of the world conduct itself as Israel does. More directly; do you think it would be good to have all nations commandeering whatever lands they choose and sighting any resistance to that as justification for collective punishment and military occupation?

If said country is being actively attacked by act of terrorism and guerilla warfare while being supported by other countries that publicly announce that said country should be wiped out of existence and are launching their attacks from sovereign territory of another country (hizbala), AND by so called soldiers and militia (Palestinians) that are supposed to guard their one borders but instead are dedicating their entire resources to building and launching small and medium rockets into said country sovereign territory in a never ending, almost on a daily basis, while being supported by other wealthy countries, then sure, but I don?t think there is another country like that.

/edit

do you think it would be good to have all nations commandeering whatever lands they choose

If that land is a no-man-land i.e. the sovereign country to which that territory belongs to doesn?t take responsibility on what goes on over there AND that territory is in effect governed by an armed organization, and for whatever reason (even if it's a good one) is bent on harming other however they are. Then absolutely yes!

sighting any resistance to that as justification for collective punishment and military occupation?

that?s not what happened nor was it the reasoning for the military operation.
What military occupation are you referring to?

 

[imported_dna]

kobymu, you must not be familiar with his rhetoric -- he's talking about the occupation of Palestine, which he also portrays as as land-stealing.
The way this discussion is going, then he's bound to use his favorite word -- "oppression" -- without any context.

 

[theeedude]

The sad thing is that Arabs could benefit greatly if they were to make peace with Israel and start normal trade relations. You know, China may not like Taiwan either, but they do make a lot of money in cross straights trade. Taiwan provides the know-how, and China provides the cheap labor. It could be the same way in the middle east. Eventually, everyone would be better off. Of course now, it's too far gone, I think. It would take a radical shift in Arab thinking, from the victim mentality, to the let's make the best of the situation mentality.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: dna
kobymu, you must not be familiar with his rhetoric -- he's talking about the occupation of Palestine, which he also portrays as as land-stealing.
The way this discussion is going, then he's bound to use his favorite word -- "oppression" -- without any context.

I'm not worried about that, besides now that you posted what you did, it will required people to step it up, and offer a meaningful argument, instead or beaten to death rhetoric, and maybe then this discussion will actually start to be interesting.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: kobymu
I'm not worried about that, besides now that you posted what you did, it will required people to step it up, and offer a meaningful argument, instead or beaten to death rhetoric, and maybe then this discussion will actually start to be interesting.

I sure hope so, but so far they are abstaining; one is the innumerate I had the debate with earlier in the thread, while the other, as you can see, is just plain ignoring the issue.

Nevertheless, I think I have the counter for this "common knowledge", but it won't be easy -- we're talking about 60 years of bitching & whining from the other side that has been imprinted in the mind of many people in the west, which they regard as facts.

It's a sad ignorant, innumerate world.

 

[SpeedZealot369]

It's so strange how people on Anandtech are so opiniated and yet probably no nothing of what really goes on in the mideast. Makes me sick really.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The standards by which Israel does operate on, I'm asking if you would like the rest of the world conduct itself as Israel does. More directly; do you think it would be good to have all nations commandeering whatever lands they choose and sighting any resistance to that as justification for collective punishment and military occupation?

Which lands are you talking about? Gaza and the West Bank? Or do you follow the Arab line that ALL of Isreal is commandered?

A better question for you: what should Israel do? When terrorist kidnap their soldiers and launch rockets into their territory, what do you think the correct response is?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The standards by which Israel does operate on, I'm asking if you would like the rest of the world conduct itself as Israel does. More directly; do you think it would be good to have all nations commandeering whatever lands they choose and sighting any resistance to that as justification for collective punishment and military occupation?

Which lands are you talking about? Gaza and the West Bank? Or do you follow the Arab line that ALL of Isreal is commandered?

A better question for you: what should Israel do? When terrorist kidnap their soldiers and launch rockets into their territory, what do you think the correct response is?

I think the best response would have had two parts. The first, a covert operation of some kind to rescue the soldiers if possible. The second part is to threaten Lebanon with massive retaliation if they don't keep their promise to get Hezbollah under control. Maybe engage the international community to help Lebanon hunt down Hezbollah if they claimed to lack the ability to do so. Hell, maybe Israel could have offered to help do so!

There are a lot of responses that would have worked far better on a number of levels than just a massive bombing campaign that seemed, at times, very generally directed.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: dna
I sure hope so, but so far they are abstaining; one is the innumerate I had the debate with earlier in the thread, while the other, as you can see, is just plain ignoring the issue.

Nevertheless, I think I have the counter for this "common knowledge", but it won't be easy -- we're talking about 60 years of bitching & whining from the other side that has been imprinted in the mind of many people in the west, which they regard as facts.

It's a sad ignorant, innumerate world.

Then we will educate them, one by one, except for those that do not wish to learn, them we will leave to their ignorance.

Originally posted by: senseamp
The sad thing is that Arabs could benefit greatly if they were to make peace with Israel and start normal trade relations. You know, China may not like Taiwan either, but they do make a lot of money in cross straights trade. Taiwan provides the know-how, and China provides the cheap labor. It could be the same way in the middle east. Eventually, everyone would be better off. Of course now, it's too far gone, I think. It would take a radical shift in Arab thinking, from the victim mentality, to the let's make the best of the situation mentality.

One problem, oil, they have it, the west wants it, and is willing to pay for it with enough money to fund all sorts of things, some are good like hospitals and universities, some are bad like weapons, and sometimes the west isn?t paying with just cash, but with other currency, like political influence (see Europe), the situation is at such of state that arabs have allowed themselves to relay on these rivers of black gold, relaying on them for giving them the means to build and maintain large metropolis filed with the best the west has to offer, relay on them enough with such a confidence to base their economy structure upon, they relay on them for far too much and for far too long.

But one day, this will change, either with new technology or the depletion of the oil reserves, whichever comes first, when that day will come, that will be the day that the scale will change. On the day that foreign currency will stop flowing in, they will face a different world then yesterday, a world that no longer relies on them, a world that is no longer willing to suppress it's disgust from their chosen way to practice their religion, their attitude towards their women, a world that is no longer willing to fund their governments politics, agendas, and their race to arms, and that will punish them severely if they choose to provoke them to much.

All Israel has to do is keep doing what it's doing. The rest will be resolved on its own.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: kobymu

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The standards by which Israel does operate on, I'm asking if you would like the rest of the world conduct itself as Israel does. More directly; do you think it would be good to have all nations commandeering whatever lands they choose and sighting any resistance to that as justification for collective punishment and military occupation?

If said country is being actively attacked by act of terrorism and guerilla warfare while being supported by other countries that publicly announce that said country should be wiped out of existence and are launching their attacks from sovereign territory of another country (hizbala), AND by so called soldiers and militia (Palestinians) that are supposed to guard their one borders but instead are dedicating their entire resources to building and launching small and medium rockets into said country sovereign territory in a never ending, almost on a daily basis, while being supported by other wealthy countries, then sure, but I don?t think there is another country like that.

Of course any country commandeering land is going to wind up being attacked by terrorists and gorillas, if not full armies; that is nearly as predictable as the laws of motion. Which is exactly why if the rest of the world started following Israels lead there we would have world war again, another giant free-for-all land grab.

Originally posted by: kobymu
If that land is a no-man-land i.e. the sovereign country to which that territory belongs to doesn?t take responsibility on what goes on over there AND that territory is in effect governed by an armed organization, and for whatever reason (even if it's a good one) is bent on harming other however they are. Then absolutely yes!

But that just sparks more hostility which leads to more taking of land and the cycle continues. There is no resolution in that, it is only prolonging the conflict rather than working towards peace.

Originally posted by: kobymu
that?s not what happened nor was it the reasoning for the military operation.

Surely you understand that the reasoning for the military operation started with clearing the land enough to create democratic state of strong Jewish majority. And I wasn't referring to a particular military occupation there or act of collective punishment for that matter, but rather the current well as the previous actions of Israel upon neighboring lands, those actions tend to promote animosity rather than resolution.

Originally posted by: kobymu
What military occupation are you referring to?

All of them, every one throughout this whole conflict including the ones that continue today. That goes for the collective punishment as well.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Surely you understand that the reasoning for the military operation started with clearing the land enough to create democratic state of strong Jewish majority. And I wasn't referring to a particular military occupation there or act of collective punishment for that matter, but rather the current well as the previous actions of Israel upon neighboring lands, those actions tend to promote animosity rather than resolution.

Less talk, more proof. I'm still waiting for your response buddy.

All of them, every one throughout this whole conflict including the ones that continue today. That goes for the collective punishment as well.

You mean like Saddam Hussein going into Kuwait?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Maybe engage the international community to help Lebanon hunt down Hezbollah if they claimed to lack the ability to do so. Hell, maybe Israel could have offered to help do so!

Fat chance of that ever happening -- just look how the allmighty French backed out of all their promises, and now Kofi Anan declares that the international force won't be doing anything to disarm Hezbollah; also, let's not forget that clown from the EU -- Larsen, I think -- which told Israel that if Hezbollah is smuggling weapons now, instead of shooting them, they should complain to the UN.... yeah, like that's gonna help.

Let's face it, there are too many fools in Europe that prefer the anti-Israel position, and advocate for UN involvement -- involvement which was good for nothing for the past 6 years when Hezbollah built tunnels, bunkers, and hoarded weapons. And when the fighting was on, what did the great UNIFIL force do besides providing safe-zones from which Hezbollah could fire rockets? It posted press releases that detailed IDF operations, which tantamount to assisting Hezbollah.

It's true what they said -- those UNIFIL people in Lebanon were there on vacation.

 

[kobymu]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Of course any country commandeering land is going to wind up being attacked by terrorists and gorillas, if not full armies; that is nearly as predictable as the laws of motion. Which is exactly why if the rest of the world started following Israels lead there we would have world war again, another giant free-for-all land grab.

By that reasoning you are suggestion that Syria should attack us, if you are really an advocator of peace wouldn't that be kind of counter productive?

Here is the real shocker, ready?
If Hezbollah wouldn?t have done what it did (kidnap the soldiers), we (Israel) would be by now deep in the disengagement planning. Hezbollah may have just ruined the Palestinians chance for freedom within the current Israel government 4 years term. Again, counter productive isn?t?

How come your reasoning (the Hezbollah should have attacked, because we are a commandeering country) always lead to further hostility and occupation? Isn?t there something, anything wrong with it when it achieve the exact opposite of what it attended to accomplish? No, because you are advocating peace, and advocating peace could not be wrong.

Well it is under curtain situations. Sorry.

But that just sparks more hostility which leads to more taking of land and the cycle continues. There is no resolution in that, it is only prolonging the conflict rather than working towards peace.

Let me tall you something, and this might comes as a surprise to you but: sometimes to prevent a war, you have to start a war. Hezbollah sole purpose is to create hostile activity toward Israel. Once you understand that, it would be easier to explain the rest, and if btw you disagree with my reasoning, please offer another explanation or purpose for Hezbollah existence.

Surely you understand that the reasoning for the military operation started with clearing the land enough to create democratic state of strong Jewish majority.

Which military operation are we talking about?

And I wasn't referring to a particular military occupation there or act of collective punishment for that matter, but rather the current well as the previous actions of Israel upon neighboring lands, those actions tend to promote animosity rather than resolution.

Missing context, elaborate please.

All of them, every one throughout this whole conflict including the ones that continue today. That goes for the collective punishment as well.

O.k. what about them? And same as above.

/edit
typos

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

I think the best response would have had two parts. The first, a covert operation of some kind to rescue the soldiers if possible. The second part is to threaten Lebanon with massive retaliation if they don't keep their promise to get Hezbollah under control. Maybe engage the international community to help Lebanon hunt down Hezbollah if they claimed to lack the ability to do so. Hell, maybe Israel could have offered to help do so!

There already was an UN resolution calling for the disarming of Hezbollah BEFORE all of this started. Everyone ignored it.

Lets face it, in most cases the "interntational community" just plain sucks and the UN even more so.

Name one success story of the UN in recent history. And compare that to Dufar, or Rwonda, Somalia etc.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: kobymu

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Of course any country commandeering land is going to wind up being attacked by terrorists and gorillas, if not full armies; that is nearly as predictable as the laws of motion. Which is exactly why if the rest of the world started following Israels lead there we would have world war again, another giant free-for-all land grab.

By that reasoning you are suggestion that Syria should attack us, if you are really an advocator of peace wouldn't that be kind of counter productive?

There is no 'should's in what I said there, please trying understanding what I said again without adding one in.

 

[Screech]

Someone here does not seem to understand that the pattern is: war started by arabs-->land lost by arabs, as opposed to: war started by israel to 'commandeer land'-->land lost by arabs.

But seriously guys, this thread should have been dead a long time ago...

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I wish the militants in Israel would read their own history and remember that oppression only strenghtens the will of the oppressed. Jewish-Nazi is no longer an oxymoran when they use the same tactics to attain a goal.

Any idiot who would use the term "jewish-nazi" needs to go back and learn history, reread what a "nazi" is, and more importantly what the Nazis did. There is absolutely no comparison between jews and nazis. My guess is you're one of those parotting turds, who is perfectly happy to throw around shock mantra just to piss off the people you ignorantly argue with.

-Max

yup, the ugly truth is the arabs/muslims are closest to the nazi's with the history to back it up. and they are still infected and is a large part why there is no peace.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm
not to mention the basic insulting dishonesty of making such an assertion. if israel were like the nazi's the problem of the palestinians would have ended decades ago. terrorists like the palestinians exploit the self limitations of liberal western cultures and thats why it continues.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: screech
Someone here does not seem to understand that the pattern is: war started by arabs-->land lost by arabs, as opposed to: war started by israel to 'commandeer land'-->land lost by arabs.

I understand that many supporters of Israel like to claim that is the pattern, but history proves that not the case as nearly three quarters of a million Palestinians were run off their land before Israel even declared independence.

 

[Screech]

Some Palestininians were run off their land, and that was a tragedy, and a crime; most left after the Arabs told them to leave because the Arabs invaded...thus, the Arabs started the war.

All of Israel's "land-grabbing" wars have been defensive....yes, even '67.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Rainsford

I think the best response would have had two parts. The first, a covert operation of some kind to rescue the soldiers if possible. The second part is to threaten Lebanon with massive retaliation if they don't keep their promise to get Hezbollah under control. Maybe engage the international community to help Lebanon hunt down Hezbollah if they claimed to lack the ability to do so. Hell, maybe Israel could have offered to help do so!

There already was an UN resolution calling for the disarming of Hezbollah BEFORE all of this started. Everyone ignored it.

Lets face it, in most cases the "interntational community" just plain sucks and the UN even more so.

Name one success story of the UN in recent history. And compare that to Dufar, or Rwonda, Somalia etc.

Nope. The UN resolution was for Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah, not UNIFIL...

Fact is, most people here have NO CLUE about the UN, International Law and Peacekeeping Operations, nor take the time to at least READ the missions mandate. I'm not talking about you, just making a general statement.

Still, ignorant about everything, they feel like they can have an opinion...


Besides:

it's Darfur, not Dufar
The situation is so complex it's beyond the possibilities of internet fora discussion. It's a shame unspeakeble of. The UN guys down there right now are risking beyond imagination just to bring food and water to thousands of refugees without military security. Ask which countries are against a real, consistent and equipped (non AU) military peacekeeping force in Darfur...

it's Rwanda, not Rwonda. In Rwanda the few hundreds UN troops had no mandate to do anything different from what they did, that is: nothing. Now go buy a book and learn which countries voted against a different mandate, and why. Hints in the next paragraph...

Somalia. Here our mighty US military took the mandate from the UN, and soon found a big mouth is not enough to understand the complex african political landscape. So they got spanked in the ass big time, you should at least have see the Scott's movie (taken from an unaccurate and laughable book) and retreated before the end of the mandate, so that now (more than a decade after) Somalia is in the hands of radical muslim warlord.
Additionally after this poor experience the US voted against a UN peacekeeping force in Rwanda (together with France and UK) for fear another bloody debacle could occour.