How to get your F35 fighters for free

[Zebo]

Not really Turkey taking Cyprus in 1974 and evicting 180,000 Greek Cypriots from their homes in the north... there are more but this is one example of this "dividing line" UN fail.

I guess you "forgot" about your muslims brothers raping and taking though.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I hardly begin to know where to start addressing the total ignorance and stupidity of JediYoda, who on another thread claimed to be the educator of the ignorant.

But we can start with his quote of, "I would hardly call the 1900s ancient history. WWI caused nations to be destroyed and others to absorb their land.

WWII as well.

Korean war?

vietnam war?

all wars where land was split.

all relatively recent.

Now lets take them one by one.

1. WW2?
A war basically caused by the greed and failures of WW1, the so called war to end all wars because the carnage was so great due to increases in human technology. It was the US and Woodrow Wilson who proposed the idea of the League of Nations, and it was the US congress that refused to ratify it. Meanwhile the draconian terms imposed on Germany totally left it a basket case as a global depression later gripped the world.
Which lead to fascist dictators in Germany, Italy, and Japan reviving their economies by military spending, and then using their better and more modern armies in war of conquest
that richly paid off in stealing the land and stealing the natural resources of weaker nations. 20 20 hindsight, had their been a strong league of nations to stop them, that would not have happened, but without US participation the League of Nations was ineffectual. So the war to end all wars was swiftly followed by another larger war that dwarfed the carnage of WW1. And in the aftermath of WW2, mankind finally gained the nuclear weapons that could make a future WW3 the war to kill all humans many times over. But still JediYoda misses the point, WW2 was that dividing line between ancient and modern history where the whole world all realized we needed a UN with the starting concept that land gained by conquest was illegal. We can all yump up and down and say the UN has not been all that effective, but its a hell of a lot better than a totally ineffective League of Nations.

2. The Korean War?
Which was somewhat pre ordained by a cold war split of the unified Korea into two nations. To some extent some of the root blame was the Western failure to keep S. Korea at military parity with North Korea as it became apparent N. Korea was arming
rapidly with the help of China. One fine day N. Korea invaded South Korea and was soon
decimating N. Korea, embarrassing the Soviet Union in the UN as they met. Then the Soviet Union made a mistake they will never make again, they boycotted the UN, temporarily lost their veto in the security council, and the entire free world made it a UN position to expel North Korea from South Korea to prevent any gain of land by conquest.
Soon the USA best remaining General, Douglas MacArthur was landing in South Korea, armed to the teeth, and soon North Korea army was in headlong retreat back to North Korea. But instead of saying honor satisfied, problem solved, Truman and MacArthur were soon making the the same damn mistake North Korea did by gaining enemy territory contrary to UN doctrine. As they kept driving North towards the North Korean capital. And then, surprise surprise, they topped the next hill and found the whole Red Chinese army heading at them. And MacArthur did not stop retreating until he was almost back to square one. A bloody statemate followed for three years, and now some 60 years later, no territory was won or lost, nothing is or was solved, North Korea and South Korea are still at each others throat, and how JediYoda can site that as proof of anything is beyond me.

3. The Vietnamese wars.
Again post WW2 cold war stupidity on steroids splits divided Vietnam into a North and South. As its former S. Vietnam colonial occupier in France tried to again set up shop at its same old stands. As mainly North Vietnam continued Vietnam's proud 3000 + year old history of tossing the foreign power out. As a low level guerrilla war ignited in South Vietnam against the French at exactly the same time France was facing the same problems in Algeria. Finally, circa 1953, France made a military blunder at Dien Bien Fu, had a large part of its army cut off and trapped by the Viet cong, and was soon sailing home as all of the former colonial powers were the big post WW2 losers. Next North Vietnamese government target was the corrupt government of the South with a goal of uniting Vietnam. As the USA somewhat slowly became the next fool nation to oppose an almost unstoppable force of Vietnamese unification. As JFK joined a long list of fools in Truman and Eisenhower that underestimated the stupidity of trying to divide Vietnam. But JFK was somewhat the fool who militarily engaged at the penny level and might have been wise enough to get out when the stakes got higher. But Kennedy died for other reasons, and for LBJ it became an ego problem. And proceeded to be a total idiot paving the way for a bigger idiot and serial liar in Nixon. Who tried LBJ tactics and got LBJ results. Finally Nixon threw in the towel, adopted the McGovern peace plan, called it peace with honor, as we joined the French in sailing home totally defeated. Now Vietnam is again united, but can we really call it a land gained by the victor in war, because Vietnam was one nation right after WW2 and is now one nation again?

Then there is the other thing to note, as long as any land gains are sanctioned by treaty and ratified by the UN, its vastly different than land gained by simple military conquest. And as view at the map of Europe before after WW2, it looks remarkably the same. During the cold war, 1950 to 1992, Germany was split, Yugoslavia reunited under Tito and now is again divided, nations like Latvia and Estonia are now again free to chart their own course, and all 50+ million deaths in WW2 have basically accomplished basically nothing.

And no JediYoda, Israel has no rights to gains by military conquest.

Lol first of all, I wrote that not jedi yoda.


Secondly, no one here needs your wall of text to tell us history we already know.


As always, you diverted from what I said and literally wrote a page of useless shit.

Those were simply clear examples of how, in modern times, land has changed owners and we are not taking about ancient land grabs

 

[theeedude]

Should have used that money for CA high speed rail.

 

[P4man]

hamas isnt the only side that is agressive towards israel.
hamas isnt the only faction of palestinians.

the palestinians attacked LEGALLY BUILT israeli settlements before the creation of the jewish state in the british controlled palestinian area.

no one here claims hamas started the issues.

like I said, check you history.

How is that a response to my post? So you are saying its okay for Israel to commit war crimes and keep committing them (against all palestenians), and we should support them in doing so, because some fractions of palestenians may have committed others once upon time? Its okay to steal land, bulldozer houses or shoot up an aid convoy because of what some arabs did 10 or 70 years ago. Is that the basis of your whole argument? Perhaps you should tally civilian deaths and injuries of either side before making such arguments.

whatever you defense to suicide bombs, rocket and mortar attacks all on civilians, is to yourself.

but I do, and so do others, have the right to call you insane.

Im not defending suicide bombing, and there is no legal basis for targeting civilians. Suicide bombing has all but stopped for the last decade, that doesnt seem to have caused any change in Israeli behavior. Perhaps on the contrary even.

Rocket and mortar attacks, Hamas claims are aimed at military targets, but they dont have GPS guided cruise missiles. Last time they killed Israeli civilians, they apologized for that and stated that wasnt their intend. Israel does have sophisticated weapons, and still manages to kill orders of magnitude more innocent Palestenians with them 'by accident' as if its somehow an accident civilians die when you shell an overpopulated 14 Km wide gaza strip with 14000 155mm artillery shells. Comparing that with Quasam rockets is a bit a sick joke really.

-Israel is a democracy, with it's leaders voted into power.

F.W. de Klerk was elected too. When are people going to stop confusing elections with democracy? Israel is an ethnocracy rather than a democracy. And even it were truly democratic, it doesnt excuse it for anything. Quite on the contrary, it gives it a far graver responsibility.

2. Israel in its charter of creation calls for peace with its neighbors
Hamas calls for the destruction of the jewish state

Oh that makes it allright.

3. Israel was attacked on the second day of its creation.
Hamas was created for the purpose of creating a palestinian state "from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River."[15] in essence, their only purpose that. they want a fight

4. Israel is not considered a terrorist entity.
Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the US, EU, Japan, and Canada.

5. Israel formed an alliance with the US as early as possible, while the arabs formed with russia. The cold war ensued. Israel gave soviet tech to the US. Israel proved itself as a strong ally.

6. Israel's technological advancement has, in joint effort with the US, created the iron dome technology (go look it up). and israel has made over a hundred of improvements to the f-16 jet fighter alone.
Palestinians, not so much.

it only makes sense for the US to support israel

No it doesnt. Not when the US will come to its senses and really see what sort of great ally Israel is to them. One that spies on them, tries to sink an unarmed US intelligence ship in a false flag operation trying to get the US to go to war for them; one that doesnt give a hoot about human rights, international law, UN resolutions or geneva conventions, thereby stripping the US of any moral authority and much of its diplomatic power, whilefueling anti American hate across much of the world and providing terrorists with a perfect recruiting tool.

An 'ally' that cares more about gaining a few extra square mile of land they claim the Bible promised them, than the position of the US in the world or the lives of US soldiers fighting Israels wars. It wont even comply to a simple request to stop building settlements for a short while, respect international law even if for a few months, unless it receives another $3 billion in military support and immunity for past war crimes.

Thats the sort of ally you get for over $100 billion support. Israel has done far more harm to US interests than any terrorists could ever dream to achieve (and getting paid handily for it). With friends like that, who needs enemies?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Lemon law states -- And no JediYoda, Israel has no rights to gains by military conquest.

But lemon law is wrong again...well unless he is eating those blasted mushrooms of his again!!

The problem you have if you can`t differentiate between Israel defending herself and Israel being the aggressor...


the UN Charter ONLY applies to how member or signatorie country are to treat each other if they were to go to war!!

The Un Charter says nothing, absolutely nothing about how members countries are to treat non - member countries!!

Look it up and prove me wrong......

I did look it up....

 

[JEDIYoda]

No it doesnt. Not when the US will come to its senses and really see what sort of great ally Israel is to them. One that spies on them, tries to sink an unarmed US intelligence ship in a false flag operation trying to get the US to go to war for them; one that doesnt give a hoot about human rights, international law, UN resolutions or geneva conventions, <--- you must be smoking the same mushrooms that Lemon law smokes! You have issues with israel yet you admit in other threads to being naive and stoopid when it comes to understanding the complex nature of the Israeli/Palestinian issue....
You also know nothing about the geneva convention and you sure as hell have no clue how biased the Un is against israel! Did you know that their is only one single UN resolution condemning Hamas and others for attacking Israel?? hasmas responded to UN resolution 181 by pledging to continue armed resistance against Israel.
Also most countries whether allies or not spy against each other...thats the just the nature of things!!

thereby stripping the US of any moral authority and much of its diplomatic power, whilefueling anti American hate across much of the world and providing terrorists with a perfect recruiting tool. <-- you cannot seriously believe that having Israel as an allie has caused the rest of the world to hate us......other countries have israel as an allie....
An 'ally' that cares more about gaining a few extra square mile of land they claim the Bible promised them, than the position of the US in the world or the lives of US soldiers fighting Israels wars. <-- go ahead open your mouth and insert foot..our soldiers have never fought a war for Israel or a war because of Israel.....I think it`s time that you went to the corner and was quiet...you are making people like lemon law look smart in comparison to the BS you are spreading....

It wont even comply to a simple request to stop building settlements for a short while, respect international law even if for a few months, unless it receives another $3 billion in military support and immunity for past war crimes. <--- hahaha you are a funny little man...rofl

Thats the sort of ally you get for over $100 billion support. Israel has done far more harm to US interests than any terrorists could ever dream to achieve (and getting paid handily for it). With friends like that, who needs enemies?

You are so full of BS dude that when you die you need to request that they give you an enema, so they night bury you in a matchbox!!

 

[P4man]

JEDIYoda, maybe we can continue this discussion when you've learned how to use quote tags, when you've learned how to spell and how to read. And more importantly, after you've matured enough to make a point without constantly lying about what I admit to or write elsewhere and once you've proven able to write posts that contain more substance than insults and ad hominens.

Maybe then I will consider it worth my time to indulge you with a reply again. Until then feel free to think I put you on my ignore list because "you whooped my ass".

 

[Freshgeardude]

JEDIYoda, maybe we can continue this discussion when you've learned how to use quote tags, when you've learned how to spell and how to read. And more importantly, after you've matured enough to make a point without constantly lying about what I admit to or write elsewhere and once you've proven able to write posts that contain more substance than insults and ad hominens.

Maybe then I will consider it worth my time to indulge you with a reply again. Until then feel free to think I put you on my ignore list because "you whooped my ass".

When english isn't jedi's first language, I think you need to relax. Stop making excuses for not responding to his rebuttal.



Anyways, you have come very late in the game. Everything being discussed here has been discussed multiple times too many.


oh and I'd honestly like to know why you are involved in ME politics? Are you a muslim or an american christian, atheist, jew, etc?


before I can take your posts seriously, I'd like to know where you get your facts, because so far all I see are statements with no backing.

 

[Craig234]

where has the stimulus worked?!!!

unemployment isnt dropping, it has gotten worse since we blanket spent 900 billion.

Analysts such as the CBO say that the stimulus prevented the loss of millions of more jobs; economists agree.

Good economists IMO say the stimulus was too small, but that what there was was very helpful.

the housing market is shit

Welcome to a burst bubble and other policies reducing wealth of the middle class.

investments are down as hell.

how can you even claim it has worked?

Actually, they're way up from where they went down to, but of course there are still ongoing major problems. But the stimulus had a great effect.

Oh by the way, corporate profits in Q3 are said to be at their all-time high - though I only caught the radio news and couldn't check on things like if it's inflation-adjusted.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7679

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry...timulus-needed-right-says-stimulus-killed-rec

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/economists-say-stimulus-worked/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/business/economy/17leonhardt.html

http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/02/23/say-it-with-me-the-stimulus-worked/

http://citypaper.net/blogs/clog/2010/09/07/yes-the-stimulus-worked-no-really-it-did/

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_05/023981.php

THE STIMULUS WORKED -- PART MMCXVII.... A few months ago, Sen. Scott Brown (R-Mass.) insisted that the economic recovery effort that prevented a depression "hasn't created one new job." A reporter gave him a chance to clarify, asking, "It didn't create one new job?" The new senator replied, "That's correct."

For Republicans in general, this is simply assumed to be true. Indeed, the standard conservative line is that the stimulus actually hurt the economy.

The evidence to the contrary is so overwhelming, the debate is over.

The $800 billion U.S. stimulus package has had a slightly bigger effect on the U.S. economy than was projected when it was passed more than a year ago, the Congressional Budget Office estimated Tuesday.

Through the first quarter of 2010, the stimulus boosted employment by an estimated 1.3 million to 2.8 million jobs, about a quarter or half million more than projected. Gross domestic product was 1.7 to 4.1 percentage points higher than it would have been without the stimulus, the nonpartisan budget office said.

Similarly, the unemployment would be up to 1.5 percentage points higher in the absence of the stimulus, according to the non-partisan CBO.

Looking ahead, the CBO projects that as many as "3.7 million American jobs could be attributed to the Recovery Act by the end of the September."

There's a word to describe a recovery effort like this: success.

Facing the greatest economic crisis in generations, the nation had two choices early last year: the Democratic stimulus or the Republicans' proposed five-year spending freeze. We're all very fortunate the latter was in the minority.

 

[P4man]

When english isn't jedi's first language, I think you need to relax. Stop making excuses for not responding to his rebuttal

If it was just spelling, Id have gladly replied, same if its just a matter of being unable to use quote tags despite 14.000 posts (!) But Im quite happy ignoring him for all the other reasons.

Anyways, you have come very late in the game. Everything being discussed here has been discussed multiple times too many.

Maybe so, but some fundamentals apparently arent known to everyone. Some things are worth repeating.

oh and I'd honestly like to know why you are involved in ME politics? Are you a muslim or an american christian, atheist, jew, etc?

Why does that matter? Would being a Jew or Muslim invalidate my points? Argue the points, not the man. But if it helps, Im not a direct sake holder.

As for why Im involved, I wonder why not more people are. I dont think there is a more important topic in the world as almost every issue on the planet is in some way related to the isreali/palestinian conflict. It affects everyone's lives.

before I can take your posts seriously, I'd like to know where you get your facts, because so far all I see are statements with no backing.

If you see me state something as fact that you didnt know or dont believe, feel free to point it out and Ill provide you with the backing.

 

[Freshgeardude]

If it was just spelling, Id have gladly replied, same if its just a matter of being unable to use quote tags despite 14.000 posts (!) But Im quite happy ignoring him for all the other reasons.

you should speak to LL, he loves to use quotes

Maybe so, but some fundamentals apparently arent known to everyone. Some things are worth repeating.


everything you have stated has been said before, nothing new

Why does that matter? Would being a Jew or Muslim invalidate my points? Argue the points, not the man. But if it helps, Im not a direct sake holder.

it matters because one thing is to have first hand experience. the other is to be some guy who observes everything from the outside and likes to put in their 2 cents.

I have first hand experience. i have been to the region, studied its history for over 10 years and unfortunately had a friend die from a suicide bomber.

sure, im 17but that doesnt make facts less true.

As for why Im involved, I wonder why not more people are. I dont think there is a more important topic in the world as almost every issue on the planet is in some way related to the isreali/palestinian conflict. It affects everyone's lives.

this i dont disagree with


If you see me state something as fact that you didnt know or dont believe, feel free to point it out and Ill provide you with the backing.

and I have every time. I see no facts being presented. I see no generally accepted historical sources.

every time I rebut your statement, you divert off topic

Go back to my posts and directly answer them. then we can actually talk

 

[P4man]

Missed this post:

lets talk geneva here. You are claiming israel is violating the agreement, but i think you forget who exactly are israel's neighbors.

people that like to live in the middle ages. 12 year old girls marrying older men.

being sentenced to death for "slandering islam"

tens of lashes and jail time for having 2 men in your home.

Typical stereotyping. Excesses happen, unfortunately, but they happen everywhere. Trying to picture the arab/muslim world like that is about as intellectually dishonest (or ignorant) as portraying western europe as a continent of catholic child abusers.

If you want to fight for human rights, then by all means, do, but be consistent and lets not pretend Gaza under Hamas is a worse regime than the Saudi dictatorship.

and lets not forget how israel's neighbors ignore the geneva conference when taking israelis as POW

I will not defend any violations of the geneva convention, no matter who commits them. Will you?

israel, in claiming these lands have used it as a buffer zone between itself and its attackers.

Well, if its buffer zone, then why is it moving 100.000's of civilians in to that bufferzone. Doesnt that somehow defy its purpose?

a missile from gaza to hit sderot takes 14 seconds. that is without a buffer. if a missile came from, say jordan or syria, it would be at least a minute, which is time to protect yourself.

But the missiles arent coming from jordan or syria, they are coming from within the "bufferzone".

Besides, lets keep some perspective here. Regardless of legality, do you think its justifiable to deny millions of people their right to self determination, keep them locked up in a prison called gaza, to demolish their houses and livelihood, kill them by the thousands for 4 decades, do ethnic cleansing just so you would get a MINUTE advance warning if Syria where to invade Israel? Really?

Besides Im not sure with what army Syria would try that with. That $100 billion support sure did provide an army thats more than capable of defending its borders.

the golan heights was an issue with israel from the beginning, this is why israel isnt so inclinded to just hand it back. the golan is a high point to israeli cities. before israel had the land, the golan was used by syria to attack the cities

Its 2010; missiles, helicopters and planes arent slowed down by a plateau. Moreover, again Israel is building civilian settlements there. How does that rhyme with a buffer supposedly to protect those civilians? Seriously, do you really think it has nothing to do with water?

I might believe that if Israel gave Syria the water rather than keeping it for itself. As it is, it provides 15&#37; if Israels clean water, and somehow I think that has more to do with its reluctance to return it and its insistence on ignoring security council resolution 497 than any military strategic importance. Look it up. Tell me this is about stopping syrian tanks.

id hardly call the arabs around israel and the palestianians victims.

they chose to attack in 48, 67, 73, 00, 06, and today.

Really?
Funny, I thought it was Israel that invaded Lebanon in 1982 and 2006, and Gaza in 2008. And if victims isnt the word for the people killed and raped in Sabra and Shatila or burnt by white fosfor, than would do we call them?

Not sure what happened in 2000 BTW

hamas allows groups within gaza to fire rockets and mortars. hezbollah is stock piling for the biggest war they have seen.

Well, that would be cautious wouldnt it. Considering how often Israel invades.

lebanon and egypt were smart and made treaties. lebanon almost did until hezbollah assassinated harari who was (according to historical accounts) less than a month away from signing a deal.

israel wanted to keep to itself from the beginning. those that came to israel were farmers and holocaust survivors. israel was fine with what it was given in 48, but if its going to be attacked, why wouldnt they want a buffer zone?

Right. Poor peaceful settlers. They never did any harm to anyone did they. Like this never happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

 

[Freshgeardude]

Typical stereotyping. Excesses happen, unfortunately, but they happen everywhere. Trying to picture the arab/muslim world like that is about as intellectually dishonest (or ignorant) as portraying western europe as a continent of catholic child abusers.

where in the last 100 years has a western society had someone killed for speaking what they beleieve in? or a 12 year old girl marrying an older person.

If you want to fight for human rights, then by all means, do, but be consistent and lets not pretend Gaza under Hamas is a worse regime than the Saudi dictatorship.

did I ever say that? they both are bad, living in the middle ages

I will not defend any violations of the geneva convention, no matter who commits them. Will you?

you say that, but you arent condemning the actions done by terrorist organizations, instead you make excuses.

Well, if its buffer zone, then why is it moving 100.000's of civilians in to that bufferzone. Doesnt that somehow defy its purpose?

overpopulation I guess. people want to expand.

But the missiles arent coming from jordan or syria, they are coming from within the "bufferzone".


not before

Besides, lets keep some perspective here. Regardless of legality, do you think its justifiable to deny millions of people their right to self determination, keep them locked up in a prison called gaza, to demolish their houses and livelihood, kill them by the thousands for 4 decades, do ethnic cleansing just so you would get a MINUTE advance warning if Syria where to invade Israel? Really?

lets remember who started this whole mess, the palestinians.

Israel only acts for its citizens.

Besides Im not sure with what army Syria would try that with. That $100 billion support sure did provide an army thats more than capable of defending its borders.
Its 2010; missiles, helicopters and planes arent slowed down by a plateau.

yet mortars are still being used.

Moreover, again Israel is building civilian settlements there. How does that rhyme with a buffer supposedly to protect those civilians? Seriously, do you really think it has nothing to do with water?

it probably also has to do with the water, but the issue came because the syrians tried to funnel water away.
I might believe that if Israel gave Syria the water rather than keeping it for itself. As it is, it provides 15% if Israels clean water
, and somehow I think that has more to do with its reluctance to return it and its insistence on ignoring security council resolution 497 than any military strategic importance. Look it up. Tell me this is about stopping syrian tanks.

its both.

Really?
Funny, I thought it was Israel that invaded Lebanon in 1982 and 2006, and Gaza in 2008. And if victims isnt the word for the people killed and raped in Sabra and Shatila or burnt by white fosfor, than would do we call them?

WHY DID THEY INVADE?

to protect themselves from constant attack.

Not sure what happened in 2000 BTW

Well, that would be cautious wouldnt it. Considering how often Israel invades.

invade to protect themselves

Right. Poor peaceful settlers. They never did any harm to anyone did they. Like this never happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

the groups that were part of the massacre were created to defend the jewish people.

they were created out of the HAGANAH, which in hebrew litterally means defense

lets see here

The killings were condemned by the leadership of the Haganah—the Jewish community's main paramilitary force—and by the area's two chief rabbis. The Jewish Agency for Israel sent Jordan's King Abdullah a letter of apology, which he rebuffed.[2]

there was clear condemnation on the jewish side.

 

[Darwin333]

Damned misleading thread title.

I want to know how to get MY OWN free F35. Just one will be fine, thanks.

 

[P4man]

If Israel invades, its in defense, if someone else invades, its aggression.Do you really not you see the hypocrisy in your post?

If some Jewish settlers murdered out an Arab village, then thats okay, because they said sorry. If as a result, Arab nations declare war to protect their people, its a war of aggression, they started everything.

If Israel causes a giant massacre and a mass rape, killing and maiming thousands in a refugee camp, hey, who cares. They didnt even say sorry. But if some Arabs finally get fed up and blow themselves up or launch a rocket, then thats never a result of anything Israel ever did, no its aggression and reason enough to shell Gaza back in to the stone age in retaliation, or invade Lebanon, or collectively punish millions of people. All in defense of course.

Who do you think you are kidding?

This whole premise that its always Palestinians that instigate and Isreali's that react and defend is getting a bit old and frankly, since you so insist in going back in history, patently false. If Israel is entitled to invade Lebanon in retaliation for a few casualties or a captured soldier, then why werent the Arab nations entitled to invade to defend their people back in 48?

This reasoning gets you nowhere. At some point it doesnt matter anymore who started what, what matters is who keeps doing what and who keeps breaking international laws and conventions, who spits on human rights. Who benefits and who suffers.

As for the argument of justifying settlements because of overpopulation. Thats as hypocrite as you can be. I almost fell of my chair reading that. Scratch the buffer argument. How is overpopulation somehow a valid or legal reason to steal other people's land? I can see China creating Chinese settlements in the US (near oilfields or gold mines of course), ethnically cleanse out the area of US citizens, and claim the land as theirs. (Or Britain. It was their land after all, before those damned Patriot terrorists started a war). That would work! If the US does anything in return, they would be the aggressors to boot.

BTW, how on earth is Israel overpopulated but Gaza not?

At least you are now implicitly admitting its just blatant theft of land, just like some of us claimed, warranted by nothing but a desire for more land and water. I guess thats a start.Now if one day you can see the fallacy of your eternal "defense" argument, perhaps you can begin to understand whats really going on.

 

[Darwin333]

If Israel invades, its in defense, if someone else invades, its aggression.Do you really not you see the hypocrisy in your post?

If some Jewish settlers murdered out an Arab village, then thats okay, because they said sorry. If as a result, Arab nations declare war to protect their people, its a war of aggression, they started everything.

If Israel causes a giant massacre and a mass rape, killing and maiming thousands in a refugee camp, hey, who cares. They didnt even say sorry. But if some Arabs finally get fed up and blow themselves up or launch a rocket, then thats never a result of anything Israel ever did, no its aggression and reason enough to shell Gaza back in to the stone age in retaliation, or invade Lebanon, or collectively punish millions of people. All in defense of course.

Who do you think you are kidding?

This whole premise that its always Palestinians that instigate and Isreali's that react and defend is getting a bit old and frankly, since you so insist in going back in history, patently false. If Israel is entitled to invade Lebanon in retaliation for a few casualties or a captured soldier, then why werent the Arab nations entitled to invade to defend their people back in 48?

This reasoning gets you nowhere. At some point it doesnt matter anymore who started what, what matters is who keeps doing what and who keeps breaking international laws and conventions, who spits on human rights. Who benefits and who suffers.

As for the argument of justifying settlements because of overpopulation. Thats as hypocrite as you can be. I almost fell of my chair reading that. Scratch the buffer argument. How is overpopulation somehow a valid or legal reason to steal other people's land? I can see China creating Chinese settlements in the US (near oilfields or gold mines of course), ethnically cleanse out the area of US citizens, and claim the land as theirs. (Or Britain. It was their land after all, before those damned Patriot terrorists started a war). That would work! If the US does anything in return, they would be the aggressors to boot.

BTW, how on earth is Israel overpopulated but Gaza not?

At least you are now implicitly admitting its just blatant theft of land, just like some of us claimed, warranted by nothing but a desire for more land and water. I guess thats a start.Now if one day you can see the fallacy of your eternal "defense" argument, perhaps you can begin to understand whats really going on.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), might makes right.

Just ask the Native Americans, if you can find one to ask.

 

[Craig234]

Go back to my posts and directly answer them. then we can actually talk

And there's an answer to your question waiting for you to read, too.

 

[JEDIYoda]

BTW bis, I did answer your above copy/paste on the Hamas charter if you had bothered to read the thread.

Umm no you didn`t answer my above copy/paste concerning the Hamas charter.

here is what you said --
If you interprete "Israel" as the current ethno-religious racist apartheid regime that rules most of the land once known as Palestine, and thats how most do (its not like they would want destroy their own sacred lands) then that doesnt sound so terribly evil. Why is it worse for Hamas to want another regime in Israel as for Israel to want another regime in Palestine? Or the US to want another regime in Iran or North Korea? At least Hamas wants it for the lands they have some legitimate claim on, certainly more than the US has on Persia.

First of all the hamas charter says nothing about a Regime change in Israel.
It is directly talking about israel as israel...nowhere doews it use the word 'regime'.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." --sound familiar....it is NOT talking about a regime change.
The charter clearly talks about obliterating Israel!!

There is nothing to interpret in the Hamas Charter unless of coursre you are using the same mushrooms that Lemon law is using....

You are clearly very very mis-informed or because of your young age you have learned nothing yet in school about the middle east......

 

[3chordcharlie]

Damned misleading thread title.

I want to know how to get MY OWN free F35. Just one will be fine, thanks.

1. Don't build a new house in the West Bank between now and Valentine's Day. If you already have one, no worries, you can keep it.

2. ?

3. Profit!

 

[P4man]

Good interview on the topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n7hQKYh94g

 

[Darwin333]

Analysts such as the CBO say that the stimulus prevented the loss of millions of more jobs; economists agree.

Good economists IMO say the stimulus was too small, but that what there was was very helpful.



Welcome to a burst bubble and other policies reducing wealth of the middle class.



Actually, they're way up from where they went down to, but of course there are still ongoing major problems. But the stimulus had a great effect.

Oh by the way, corporate profits in Q3 are said to be at their all-time high - though I only caught the radio news and couldn't check on things like if it's inflation-adjusted.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7679

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry...timulus-needed-right-says-stimulus-killed-rec

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/economists-say-stimulus-worked/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/business/economy/17leonhardt.html

http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/02/23/say-it-with-me-the-stimulus-worked/

http://citypaper.net/blogs/clog/2010/09/07/yes-the-stimulus-worked-no-really-it-did/

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_05/023981.php

A good analogy would be that you lost your job while in serious debt but you got a new credit card so you are financially sound!

We have fixed nothing. We have spent a fuckton of money to paper over bad debt but we didn't remove the bad debt from the system. The bad debt, still being there, will bite us in the ass harder very soon. Even worse, the "elite" got even eliter and blatant lawlessness by those elites is continually tolerated.

Who gives a fuck about the stimulus when we are still fucked due to the underlying issues that were not, and are not, fixed?

BTW, it is really damn ironic that you mention the "burst bubble" cycle and then three sentences later cheer about all time high earnings.................................. Gee, what part of that cycle do you think we are currently in? Is that a good thing? Who is it that tends to profit when it busts? Is that a good thing?

 

[Darwin333]

1. Don't build a new house in the West Bank between now and Valentine's Day. If you already have one, no worries, you can keep it.

2. ?

3. Profit!

I ain't building shit in the West Bank, where do I sign up for my F35? I wouldn't mind some missiles too but its not a deal breaker.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Good interview on the topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n7hQKYh94g

therealnews.com?

really. chompsky is an icon of the American Left. he is no where near unbiased.


what you linked there is a clearly biased video which isnt going to convince anyone besides LL who, already agrees with the left

 

[P4man]

Whenever you have no arguments, attack the man instead of the point. Is that really your best rebuttal?

Everyone is biased, so is Chomsky. (You do know he is Jewish right?). But bias doesnt change international law.

Since I dont see any arguments in response to my 2 latest posts, I'll assume you now concede the point Israel is stealing land, thereby violating international law, humanitarian rights and unquestionably, countless UN resolutions. That might have come as a surprise to you, but its a truism to anyone paying any attention. Israel commits war crimes on a huge scale, and as a matter of official state policy. Granted legal immunity through US veto's in the UN, and funded by US tax payer money. Let that sink in for a moment.

But the illegal settlements is only one of countless such violations. Perhaps we can examine its other war crimes, like collective punishment against the people of Gaza. Its wars of aggression. Or the systematic demolition of Palestenian houses. About 25.000 to date according to Israeli sources:
http://www.icahd.org/?page_id=5508
And that is likely a low estimate, since it only counts the documented cases. The link also nicely explains the legal issues with that. War crimes is what it is. Fully supported by the US.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Whenever you have no arguments, attack the man instead of the point. Is that really your best rebuttal?

Everyone is biased, so is Chomsky. (You do know he is Jewish right?). But bias doesnt change international law.

Since I dont see any arguments in response to my 2 latest posts, I'll assume you now concede the point Israel is stealing land, thereby violating international law, humanitarian rights and unquestionably, countless UN resolutions. That might have come as a surprise to you, but its a truism to anyone paying any attention. Israel commits war crimes on a huge scale, and as a matter of official state policy. Granted legal immunity through US veto's in the UN, and funded by US tax payer money. Let that sink in for a moment.

But the illegal settlements is only one of countless such violations. Perhaps we can examine its other war crimes, like collective punishment against the people of Gaza. Its wars of aggression. Or the systematic demolition of Palestenian houses. About 25.000 to date according to Israeli sources:
http://www.icahd.org/?page_id=5508
And that is likely a low estimate, since it only counts the documented cases. The link also nicely explains the legal issues with that. War crimes is what it is. Fully supported by the US.

lol yup, because I dont like going in circles with someone who doesnt read up on israel's entire history, and instead only looks at the last 40 years.


I am conceding to what you said.



lmao.