How to get your F35 fighters for free

[SandEagle]

to bad your wet dream will never come true, since the US has veto power in the UN and israeli support is the most popular bipartisan topic to ever have existed in the history of the US.


in 73, the land gained by israel west of the sinai was met with egyptian gain in the sinai. no one said shit about egypt's claims.

land was given back in peace deal.

golan land is still in israel's possession. I see no nation is complaining about the golan except for syria (of course, they lost it)

I would hardly call the 1900s ancient history. WWI caused nations to be destroyed and others to absorb their land.

WWII as well.

Korean war?

vietnam war?

all wars where land was split.

all relatively recent.

lol. u claim to be a 17 yr old kid. u joined when u were 13? not may 'kids' are this interested in ME politics. u have 0 credibility.

 

[P4man]

have the borders of modern day USA, canada, mexico, europe or asia come from peaceful discussions?

Are you suggesting we go back to those times? Isnt it bitterly ironic the 4th Geneva convention was agreed upon in the aftermath of WW2 to protect civilian populations in future armed conflicts. Inspired among other things by the deportations and genocide that happened to the Jews, the collective punishment the Nazi's carried out, the deliberate targeting of civilians population (literally, terrorism) and other excesses.

Are you now seriously in favor of abolishing that just because you are sympathizing with the perpetrators rather than the victims? Are you in favor of reestablishing imperial colonialism? reestablishing apartheid and slavery as well perhaps?

I thought we lived in the 21st century and had moved on since those dark ages.

 

[Freshgeardude]

lol. u claim to be a 17 yr old kid. u joined when u were 13? nor may 'kids' are this interested in ME politics. u have 0 credibility.

i have no credibility because I am young. great logic there. sounds like its your only defense.


i dont "claim" to be 17, I am.

 

[SandEagle]

i have no credibility because I am young. great logic there. sounds like its your only defense.


i dont "claim" to be 17, I am.

go play video games or barbie dolls. leave the politics to the big dogs

 

[Freshgeardude]

Are you suggesting we go back to those times? Isnt it bitterly ironic the 4th Geneva convention was agreed upon in the aftermath of WW2 to protect civilian populations in future armed conflicts. Inspired among other things by the deportations and genocide that happened to the Jews, the collective punishment the Nazi's carried out, the deliberate targeting of civilians population (literally, terrorism) and other excesses.

Are you now seriously in favor of abolishing that just because you are sympathizing with the perpetrators rather than the victims? Are you in favor of reestablishing imperial colonialism? reestablishing apartheid and slavery as well perhaps?

I thought we lived in the 21st century and had moved on since those dark ages.

lets talk geneva here. You are claiming israel is violating the agreement, but i think you forget who exactly are israel's neighbors.

people that like to live in the middle ages. 12 year old girls marrying older men.

being sentenced to death for "slandering islam"

tens of lashes and jail time for having 2 men in your home.

and lets not forget how israel's neighbors ignore the geneva conference when taking israelis as POW



I do not favor going back to the darker times of history, im merely pointing to the facts.

israel, in claiming these lands have used it as a buffer zone between itself and its attackers.

a missile from gaza to hit sderot takes 14 seconds. that is without a buffer. if a missile came from, say jordan or syria, it would be at least a minute, which is time to protect yourself.

the golan heights was an issue with israel from the beginning, this is why israel isnt so inclinded to just hand it back. the golan is a high point to israeli cities. before israel had the land, the golan was used by syria to attack the cities


id hardly call the arabs around israel and the palestianians victims.

they chose to attack in 48, 63, 73, 00, 06, and today.

hamas allows groups within gaza to fire rockets and mortars. hezbollah is stock piling for the biggest war they have seen.

Jordan and egypt were smart and made treaties. lebanon almost did until hezbollah assassinated harari who was (according to historical accounts) less than a month away from signing a deal.



israel wanted to keep to itself from the begining. those that came to israel were farmers and holocaust survivors. israel was fine with what it was given in 48, but if its going to be attacked, why wouldnt they want a buffer zone?

 

[Freshgeardude]

go play video games or barbie dolls. leave the politics to the big dogs

ahaha i love it. you have no idea what you are talking about in the real world, so personal attacks it is! lmfao

and i'd hardly call you a big dog, more like a chihuahua

 

[HeXen]

Popcorn anyone?

 

[SandEagle]

ahaha i love it. you have no idea what you are talking about in the real world, so personal attacks it is! lmfao

and i'd hardly call you a big dog, more like a chihuahua

ah, the irony. :hmm:

 

[Freshgeardude]

ah, the irony. :hmm:

yes.

 

[Dominato3r]

Would it not be better to lease them the jets?

 

[JEDIYoda]

As it is P4man will not and refuses to adress the Hamas Charter which states --
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
(The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

It has been proven time and again that talking helps not one bit.

You site Ireland as a good example of talking things out.
Yet what you fail to ubderstand is that the conditions of both groups people made talking imperative. It was not as if both groups had a trmendous amount of support world wide and because of that monumental support they decided to talk....

 

[P4man]

I dont understand what your point is; so its okay for Israel to commit war crimes because by your claim, the other fraction is doing it too? (Im sure you will say they started it too, even if Hamas was only created after decades of occupation and settlements).

There are a ton of issues with that. Like the fact that many of the examples you quote are perfectly legal under the geneva convention. People have a right to resist "colonial domination and alien occupation and racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination as enshrined in the Charter of the UN" and/or to resist illegal practices of the occupier according to Article 1(4) of Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions. Go read it yourself.

Armed resistance against the Israeli occupation and war crimes, is therefore, unlike those settlements and endless abuses, legal. That doesnt mean anything they do is legal, but the basic premise for Hamas to resist, even by force, most certainly is.

But lets assume it isnt, and anything Hamas does is illegal, in breach of conventions and international law and they equally guilty of war crimes as Israel. Under that assumption, what is the rational behind funding one party of war criminals with billions of dollars, and arming them to teeth (with nukes no less), allowing them to commit wars of aggression and vetoing any resolutions to punish such crimes, while demonising the other and killing them on sight?

If they are both equally evil?

BTW, im not entirely sure how Hamas enters the picture here at all. Does Israel need F35s to defend themselves from Hamas? Does it have an anti slingshot sensors or what?

BTW bis, I did answer your above copy/paste on the Hamas charter if you had bothered to read the thread.

 

[P4man]

i dont "claim" to be 17, I am.

FWIW, Im glad you are. You still have at least 10 years to mature, get informed and reevaluate your position.

 

[MotF Bane]

Seamless denial- Label and Dismiss, just the way Rush taught you to do...

This from one of the more rabid leftist apologists on here, where everything is in black and white, and where denying by source is perfectly acceptable for you and yours. Go away.

 

[Zebo]

I've been saying it for for years, get rid of all the foreign aid. If you aren't hearing it, you haven't been listening.

Sure it goes back into our economy, but it's first sucked out of our economy. It's a total redistribution of resources, or wealth. It's corporate welfare, much worse than welfare for people who actually need it. And this shit isn't even on the table for either party. What do they put on the table? Unemployment benefits. They'll discuss the needs and costs of that, but oh no, not the welfare for Israel or Egypt or Pakistan or Georgia, etc. Only nutbags like Ron Paul and a few progressives want to discuss that.

I agree in theory. Problem is when someone is pushed into corner with only nukes at disposal....could go one of two ways. 2 billion dead or just 6 million Jews dead. Fighters and what not give them defensive capability w/o having to make that choice.

 

[Zebo]

As it is P4man will not and refuses to adress the Hamas Charter which states --
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
(The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

It has been proven time and again that talking helps not one bit.

You site Ireland as a good example of talking things out.
Yet what you fail to ubderstand is that the conditions of both groups people made talking imperative. It was not as if both groups had a trmendous amount of support world wide and because of that monumental support they decided to talk....

Hamas and Fatah (and whole ME) are same thing. One just demands faster results.

 

[Craig234]

well 3$ billion going directly to manufactures to build planes.

that'll employ hundreds of workers.

its a much better stimulus than the 900 billion that was inefficiently given out.

Wow, that's a bad joke.

At best, that's billions of dollars in our potential economic productivity lost to at best building a product that will go unused, and could be used for killing a lot of people.

And you say that's better than the money spent in the stimulus with that right-wing propaganda word "inefficiently", when that money has been found to be extremely 'efficient' in helping our economy in more productive activities and from further big problems.

We are by far the world's leading arms merchant. We could use a shift of that 'economy' to more productive and moral activities.

 

[SamurAchzar]

We could use a shift of that 'economy' to more productive and moral activities.

Denying nuclear weapons from Iran is as moral as it's going to get.

 

[Zebo]

Arms which employs 35 million Americans either directly or indirectly is like playing poker for a living. Nothing productive and you could lose it all. Your friends, your money, your credit rating, your life.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Hamas and Fatah (and whole ME) are same thing. One just demands faster results.

-- IMO you are correct!!

 

[MotF Bane]

We are by far the world's leading arms merchant. We could use a shift of that 'economy' to more productive and moral activities.

Morals are subjective. You get pissed off when the right wants to use their morals in government; why should yours be used instead? Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Freshgeardude]

FWIW, Im glad you are. You still have at least 10 years to mature, get informed and reevaluate your position.

you have yet to refute any facts I have presented. you merely divert off topic.


when you come back with ways to disprove me, then I can say you are mature, informed and im sure you will have reevaluated you position.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Wow, that's a bad joke.

At best, that's billions of dollars in our potential economic productivity lost to at best building a product that will go unused, and could be used for killing a lot of people.

And you say that's better than the money spent in the stimulus with that right-wing propaganda word "inefficiently", when that money has been found to be extremely 'efficient' in helping our economy in more productive activities and from further big problems.

We are by far the world's leading arms merchant. We could use a shift of that 'economy' to more productive and moral activities.

where has the stimulus worked?!!!

unemployment isnt dropping, it has gotten worse since we blanket spent 900 billion.

the housing market is shit

investments are down as hell.


how can you even claim it has worked?


the only parts that changed are the natural business cycles, we naturally will get back.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I dont understand what your point is; so its okay for Israel to commit war crimes because by your claim, the other fraction is doing it too? (Im sure you will say they started it too, even if Hamas was only created after decades of occupation and settlements).

hamas isnt the only side that is agressive towards israel.
hamas isnt the only faction of palestinians.

the palestinians attacked LEGALLY BUILT israeli settlements before the creation of the jewish state in the british controlled palestinian area.

no one here claims hamas started the issues.

like I said, check you history.

There are a ton of issues with that. Like the fact that many of the examples you quote are perfectly legal under the geneva convention. People have a right to resist "colonial domination and alien occupation and racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination as enshrined in the Charter of the UN" and/or to resist illegal practices of the occupier according to Article 1(4) of Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions. Go read it yourself.

whatever you defense to suicide bombs, rocket and mortar attacks all on civilians, is to yourself.

but I do, and so do others, have the right to call you insane.

Armed resistance against the Israeli occupation and war crimes, is therefore, unlike those settlements and endless abuses, legal. That doesnt mean anything they do is legal, but the basic premise for Hamas to resist, even by force, most certainly is.

sure suicide bombs and rocket/ mortar attacks are clear armed resistance. now its ok for them to kill civilians.

But lets assume it isnt, and anything Hamas does is illegal, in breach of conventions and international law and they equally guilty of war crimes as Israel. Under that assumption, what is the rational behind funding one party of war criminals with billions of dollars, and arming them to teeth (with nukes no less), allowing them to commit wars of aggression and vetoing any resolutions to punish such crimes, while demonising the other and killing them on sight?

lets actually evaluate this.
1. -Israel is a democracy, with it's leaders voted into power.

-Hamas technically was voted into power, but not after they killed hundreds of the opposition. let alone, they now control the balots to ensure they stay in power, democracy right?

2. Israel in its charter of creation calls for peace with its neighbors
Hamas calls for the destruction of the jewish state

3. Israel was attacked on the second day of its creation.
Hamas was created for the purpose of creating a palestinian state "from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River."[15] in essence, their only purpose that. they want a fight

4. Israel is not considered a terrorist entity.
Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the US, EU, Japan, and Canada.

5. Israel formed an alliance with the US as early as possible, while the arabs formed with russia. The cold war ensued. Israel gave soviet tech to the US. Israel proved itself as a strong ally.

6. Israel's technological advancement has, in joint effort with the US, created the iron dome technology (go look it up). and israel has made over a hundred of improvements to the f-16 jet fighter alone.
Palestinians, not so much.

it only makes sense for the US to support israel

If they are both equally evil?

BTW, im not entirely sure how Hamas enters the picture here at all. Does Israel need F35s to defend themselves from Hamas? Does it have an anti slingshot sensors or what?

no, the f35s are for Hamas's puppeteer, Iran, which over time has been proven to be providing arms to both Hamas and Hezbollah.

BTW bis, I did answer your above copy/paste on the Hamas charter if you had bothered to read the thread.

Lets see how you respond to that. I am interested in your response.

 

[Lemon law]

I hardly begin to know where to start addressing the total ignorance and stupidity of JediYoda, who on another thread claimed to be the educator of the ignorant.

But we can start with his quote of, "I would hardly call the 1900s ancient history. WWI caused nations to be destroyed and others to absorb their land.

WWII as well.

Korean war?

vietnam war?

all wars where land was split.

all relatively recent.

Now lets take them one by one.

1. WW2?
A war basically caused by the greed and failures of WW1, the so called war to end all wars because the carnage was so great due to increases in human technology. It was the US and Woodrow Wilson who proposed the idea of the League of Nations, and it was the US congress that refused to ratify it. Meanwhile the draconian terms imposed on Germany totally left it a basket case as a global depression later gripped the world.
Which lead to fascist dictators in Germany, Italy, and Japan reviving their economies by military spending, and then using their better and more modern armies in war of conquest
that richly paid off in stealing the land and stealing the natural resources of weaker nations. 20 20 hindsight, had their been a strong league of nations to stop them, that would not have happened, but without US participation the League of Nations was ineffectual. So the war to end all wars was swiftly followed by another larger war that dwarfed the carnage of WW1. And in the aftermath of WW2, mankind finally gained the nuclear weapons that could make a future WW3 the war to kill all humans many times over. But still JediYoda misses the point, WW2 was that dividing line between ancient and modern history where the whole world all realized we needed a UN with the starting concept that land gained by conquest was illegal. We can all yump up and down and say the UN has not been all that effective, but its a hell of a lot better than a totally ineffective League of Nations.

2. The Korean War?
Which was somewhat pre ordained by a cold war split of the unified Korea into two nations. To some extent some of the root blame was the Western failure to keep S. Korea at military parity with North Korea as it became apparent N. Korea was arming
rapidly with the help of China. One fine day N. Korea invaded South Korea and was soon
decimating N. Korea, embarrassing the Soviet Union in the UN as they met. Then the Soviet Union made a mistake they will never make again, they boycotted the UN, temporarily lost their veto in the security council, and the entire free world made it a UN position to expel North Korea from South Korea to prevent any gain of land by conquest.
Soon the USA best remaining General, Douglas MacArthur was landing in South Korea, armed to the teeth, and soon North Korea army was in headlong retreat back to North Korea. But instead of saying honor satisfied, problem solved, Truman and MacArthur were soon making the the same damn mistake North Korea did by gaining enemy territory contrary to UN doctrine. As they kept driving North towards the North Korean capital. And then, surprise surprise, they topped the next hill and found the whole Red Chinese army heading at them. And MacArthur did not stop retreating until he was almost back to square one. A bloody statemate followed for three years, and now some 60 years later, no territory was won or lost, nothing is or was solved, North Korea and South Korea are still at each others throat, and how JediYoda can site that as proof of anything is beyond me.

3. The Vietnamese wars.
Again post WW2 cold war stupidity on steroids splits divided Vietnam into a North and South. As its former S. Vietnam colonial occupier in France tried to again set up shop at its same old stands. As mainly North Vietnam continued Vietnam's proud 3000 + year old history of tossing the foreign power out. As a low level guerrilla war ignited in South Vietnam against the French at exactly the same time France was facing the same problems in Algeria. Finally, circa 1953, France made a military blunder at Dien Bien Fu, had a large part of its army cut off and trapped by the Viet cong, and was soon sailing home as all of the former colonial powers were the big post WW2 losers. Next North Vietnamese government target was the corrupt government of the South with a goal of uniting Vietnam. As the USA somewhat slowly became the next fool nation to oppose an almost unstoppable force of Vietnamese unification. As JFK joined a long list of fools in Truman and Eisenhower that underestimated the stupidity of trying to divide Vietnam. But JFK was somewhat the fool who militarily engaged at the penny level and might have been wise enough to get out when the stakes got higher. But Kennedy died for other reasons, and for LBJ it became an ego problem. And proceeded to be a total idiot paving the way for a bigger idiot and serial liar in Nixon. Who tried LBJ tactics and got LBJ results. Finally Nixon threw in the towel, adopted the McGovern peace plan, called it peace with honor, as we joined the French in sailing home totally defeated. Now Vietnam is again united, but can we really call it a land gained by the victor in war, because Vietnam was one nation right after WW2 and is now one nation again?

Then there is the other thing to note, as long as any land gains are sanctioned by treaty and ratified by the UN, its vastly different than land gained by simple military conquest. And as view at the map of Europe before after WW2, it looks remarkably the same. During the cold war, 1950 to 1992, Germany was split, Yugoslavia reunited under Tito and now is again divided, nations like Latvia and Estonia are now again free to chart their own course, and all 50+ million deaths in WW2 have basically accomplished basically nothing.

And no JediYoda, Israel has no rights to gains by military conquest.