How to get tighter handling like my friend's BMW 3-series?

[soccerballtux]

Forget about the handling. Focus on the important stuff like a wing, decals, mufflers, etc.

ground fx are expensive bro. Not paying $1000 for pieces of painted plastic.
i am considering muffler though. Not because it's fast, but because it sounds fast. I have bike for go fast 🙂

 

[AdamK47]

ground fx are expensive bro. Not paying $1000 for pieces of painted plastic.
i am considering muffler though. Not because it's fast, but because it sounds fast. I have bike for go fast 🙂

That's the price you pay for performance.

 

[soccerballtux]

That's the price you pay for performance.

😕
there not proformance. more like noobformance.

 

[JCH13]

Forget about the handling. Focus on the important stuff like a wing, decals, mufflers, etc.

 

[alkemyst]

Out of curiosity, I looked up Fred Puhn's How to Make Your Car Handle on Amazon, and found that I could preview most of the pages I was interested in. Page 44: "Increased weight transfer means reduced grip."

Apparently YOU should have read that book.

It's clear you have no understanding of the topic at hand...congratulations though, you win teh internet!

 

[alkemyst]

Nope. Springs will maintain the same spring rate no matter what because the elastic modulus of the material will never change with time. I guess the one exception being enough rust/corrosion to remove a significant amount of material (highly unlikely), and if that happens the springs are likely to break anyway.

Springs can crack due to manufacturing defects, loss of temper (i.e. someone torching the spring to get a cheap drop), etc.

False...springs can deform over time and not have cracks etc.

Especially in racing applications.

 

[alkemyst]

You'll have to drive the crap out of the car to lift a tire anyway - if you're not autocrossing, I'd bet it's not going to happen.

Not really on some cars, just sticking it into a corner hot can do it.

Because a tire lifts <> major weight transfer either.

 

[JCH13]

False...springs can deform over time and not have cracks etc.

Especially in racing applications.

That deformation is called "set" and happens with virtually any spring. When someone says their springs "settled" after installing them they're referring to the springs' set. Set affects the length of the spring, but it does NOT affect the spring rate, i.e. the force required to elastically deform the spring a given length.

It's clear you have no understanding of the topic at hand...congratulations though, you win teh internet!

Yep, I definitely don't know anything at all. You must clearly be right! Please do explain how 3-wheeling a car isn't a huge amount of weight transfer and how it does not reduce grip dramatically.

 

[jlee]

It's clear you have no understanding of the topic at hand...congratulations though, you win teh internet!

Oh alky, you really think you're smart, don't you.

Not really on some cars, just sticking it into a corner hot can do it.

Because a tire lifts <> major weight transfer either.

Driving a car into a corner hot enough to pick up a wheel is driving the crap out of the car.

 

[amdhunter]

About a month ago, sweet as hell ride.

Ah, I must have been banned when you posted that thread. I must find it now. Congrats. :thumbsup:

 

[alkemyst]

Oh alky, you really think you're smart, don't you.



Driving a car into a corner hot enough to pick up a wheel is driving the crap out of the car.

Some cars pick up their inner rear wheel pretty damn easily and it's a non-event.

It's sad how so many people with only a couple cars under their belts think they know it all.

 

[jlee]

Some cars pick up their inner rear wheel pretty damn easily and it's a non-event.

It's sad how so many people with only a couple cars under their belts think they know it all.

It is, isn't it...one day you'll learn, though - don't worry.

 

[alkemyst]

That deformation is called "set" and happens with virtually any spring. When someone says their springs "settled" after installing them they're referring to the springs' set. Set affects the length of the spring, but it does NOT affect the spring rate, i.e. the force required to elastically deform the spring a given length.

Not what I was referring to at all.

Yep, I definitely don't know anything at all. You must clearly be right! Please do explain how 3-wheeling a car isn't a huge amount of weight transfer and how it does not reduce grip dramatically.

A few easy ways...one solid axle design with limited roll available. Small wheelbased cars.

They already showed you a Top Gear video above that shows an example.

Porsche 911's used to lift their front inner wheels all the time in SCCA and still be turning great laps.

 

[alkemyst]

It is, isn't it...one day you'll learn, though - don't worry.

you can't even get your turbo project running right...please don't go there.

 

[MotF Bane]

Guys, we're all feeding the troll now. Let's all collectively click on User CP > Edit Ignore List, and type in his name.

 

[alkemyst]

Guys, we're all feeding the troll now. Let's all collectively click on User CP > Edit Ignore List, and type in his name.

I am a troll because I understood that video with Stig and know 911's used to lift their inner front wheels all the time and win races?

You fucking serious? Yeah, let's just agree with bullshit posted because that's cool!

 

[soccerballtux]

That deformation is called "set" and happens with virtually any spring. When someone says their springs "settled" after installing them they're referring to the springs' set. Set affects the length of the spring, but it does NOT affect the spring rate, i.e. the force required to elastically deform the spring a given length.



Yep, I definitely don't know anything at all. You must clearly be right! Please do explain how 3-wheeling a car isn't a huge amount of weight transfer and how it does not reduce grip dramatically.

No doubt it's a lot of weight but IMO point is the car handles great even with that, and because of this it's ok. If it stuck to the road it would probably have some serious understeer.

 

[jlee]

you can't even get your turbo project running right...please don't go there.

I can also R & R an MR2's turbo in less than an hour. I have a feeling you'd get lost. Oh, and incidentally - it's running beautifully.

But hey, you've had enough food for the night.

 

[yottabit]

😵

Do you mean that the lower your drop the stiffer the spring you need to stay off your bump stops?

That's one consideration, but not what I was referring to

I'm a little fuzzy about this because it's been a long time since I did any research, and it's dependent on the vehicle + suspension geometry, but I believe the effect I am referring to is when lowering the vehicle causes the roll center to drop more than the center of gravity

This means for a similar spring rate drop spring you will have more roll than a similar spring rate stock height spring, requiring a stiffer spring to keep the same handling at drop

AFAIK this effects the majority of econo-sports cars on the road today. Sometimes it's pretty minor, like a 30&#37; increase in spring rate to match a 1.5"-2" drop, but it's still something to take into consideration

To the OP, I really think an alignment is what will make the biggest difference to you in the perceived responsiveness of the vehicle. I'd look up a semi-aggressive alignment for a tC and give that a try. Responsiveness is all in the tires and alignment- lowering the vehicle and adding stiffer swaybars won't really help with that. They will help reduce body roll though. All the advice for coilovers could be because there is a lack of good performance drop spring for your car. Something like an H&R Sport would be good if they make one for your car. For what you're doing you might want to find a shop that will do "lifetime" alignments, especially if you plan on keeping the car for a long time and changing out struts/coilovers. Around here I The can get a lifetime alignment for $200 and have my alignment changed as many times as I want

 

[JCH13]

That's one consideration, but not what I was referring to

I'm a little fuzzy about this because it's been a long time since I did any research, and it's dependent on the vehicle + suspension geometry, but the effect I am referring to is when lowering the vehicle causes the roll center to drop more than the center of gravity

This means for a similar spring rate drop spring you will have more roll rate than a similar spring rate stock height spring, requiring a stiffer spring to keep the same handling at drop

AFAIK this plagues the majority of econo-sports cars on the road today. Sometimes it's pretty minor, like a 30% increase in spring rate to match a 1.5"-2" drop, but it's still something to take into consideration

Ah, increasing the spring rate to maintain roll stiffness (if I understand you). That would be heavily dependent on vehicle geometry, but with mac-strut I can imagine it's a problem.

 

[yottabit]

Ah, increasing the spring rate to maintain roll stiffness (if I understand you). That would be heavily dependent on vehicle geometry, but with mac-strut I can imagine it's a problem.

Yes that's exactly what I'm referring to, and I do think it would be a problem on a Scion (although I'm not 100&#37; sure) I realize I shouldn't have said "effective spring rate"... roll stiffness is the phrase I was looking for 😛

 

[yottabit]

I am a troll because I understood that video with Stig and know 911's used to lift their inner front wheels all the time and win races?

You fucking serious? Yeah, let's just agree with bullshit posted because that's cool!

I don't think anyone is arguing the 911 doesn't handle well, or that cars that lift tires can't handle well, just that it's not necessarily the ideal setup

Handling is such a subjective and situational thing that these kind of discussions are really pointless

Tuning my FWD car to REDUCE rear grip to allow it to oversteer and rotate more could increase times around an auto-x track even though it would reduce skidpad numbers, but IDEALLY it would be better to keep the same amount of rear grip and add front grip to create the same tendancy to oversteer. I think it's a similar logic to the wheel lifting, it would be ideal if it didn't happen but it may be the best tune given the circumstances and equipment they had to work with

 

[JCH13]

I am a troll because I understood that video with Stig and know 911's used to lift their inner front wheels all the time and win races?

You fucking serious? Yeah, let's just agree with bullshit posted because that's cool!

All I said was that lifting a wheel is 100% weight transfer and it minimized the grip of that axle, you don't seem to believe that despite multiple cited sources.

I never said that 911's were slow or didn't handle well. If an 911 can win races doing that, props to them. They clearly make the trade off of maximizing rear axle grip at the expense of front axle grip, which makes sense given the 911's reputation for snap oversteer. The 911 would have a higher ultimate lateral grip with four wheels on the ground though, and they generally do have four wheels on the ground at the apex of a turn. 911's generally lift the front inside wheel coming out of a turn and getting on the gas (coupled with a rearward weight bias), which shifts weight outside and back. This is the conclusion I reached after a lengthy discussion I had with a buddy of mine who races Porches while we were working on the suspension design of a race car we built from scratch. But clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[MotF Bane]

All I said was that lifting a wheel is 100% weight transfer and it minimized the grip of that axle, you don't seem to believe that despite multiple cited sources.

I never said that 911's were slow or didn't handle well. If an 911 can win races doing that, props to them. They clearly make the trade off of maximizing rear axle grip at the expense of front axle grip, which makes sense given the 911's reputation for snap oversteer. The 911 would have a higher ultimate lateral grip with four wheels on the ground though, and they generally do have four wheels on the ground at the apex of a turn. 911's generally lift the front inside wheel coming out of a turn and getting on the gas (coupled with a rearward weight bias), which shifts weight outside and back. This is the conclusion I reached after a lengthy discussion I had with a buddy of mine who races Porches while we were working on the suspension design of a race car we built from scratch. But clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Stop feeding him.

 

[soccerballtux]

Ah, increasing the spring rate to maintain roll stiffness (if I understand you). That would be heavily dependent on vehicle geometry, but with mac-strut I can imagine it's a problem.

wait I don't follow, what do you mean, "a problem"