How to get tighter handling like my friend's BMW 3-series?

[Zargon]

Design flaw, or just what happens with that setup when driven 10/10ths a la Stigness? The lap time was quite decent.

never been to an autocross eh?

very common on FF cars with stiff suspension

my saturn sc2 would do it a little(harder with IRS), pretty much all civics ever with new springs/struts will


cheap coilovers are just that man, and it will ride like garbage

 

[Arkaign]

never been to an autocross eh?

very common on FF cars with stiff suspension

my saturn sc2 would do it a little(harder with IRS), pretty much all civics ever with new springs/struts will


cheap coilovers are just that man, and it will ride like garbage

I've seen a few AutoX events held in parking lots and the like, which seems incredibly un-fun to me, no offense to anyone who enjoys it.

I had a fairly well-modded Prelude that held corners like mad (as long as you weren't very deep in the throttle if at all), and it didn't tripod around, but I imagine the driving dynamics of that thing were quite a lot different, as the COG was much lower than say a Focus RS. That was my last experience trying to get real performance out of a FF though, for any performance-oriented fun in the future it's FR or FX or go home.

 

[jlee]

I've seen a few AutoX events held in parking lots and the like, which seems incredibly un-fun to me, no offense to anyone who enjoys it.

I had a fairly well-modded Prelude that held corners like mad (as long as you weren't very deep in the throttle if at all), and it didn't tripod around, but I imagine the driving dynamics of that thing were quite a lot different, as the COG was much lower than say a Focus RS. That was my last experience trying to get real performance out of a FF though, for any performance-oriented fun in the future it's FR or FX or go home.

Maybe you should avoid autox, then, because some jackass will show up in an Elise and show you up.

 

[Arkaign]

Maybe you should avoid autox, then, because some jackass will show up in an Elise and show you up.

Hah, I'd love MR or MX cars as well, but the ones that will fit me are $$$$$$$$$$.

I remember looooving the MR2 and Fiero (hey, I was elementary age, lol) growing up, but when I got old enough to drive, I couldn't fit in them

But yeah, AutoX, at least the little parking lot stuff, is not fun for me. If I was going to seriously do that, I'd get a beater civic or something to tear up.

 

[Zargon]

I've seen a few AutoX events held in parking lots and the like, which seems incredibly un-fun to me, no offense to anyone who enjoys it.

I had a fairly well-modded Prelude that held corners like mad (as long as you weren't very deep in the throttle if at all), and it didn't tripod around, but I imagine the driving dynamics of that thing were quite a lot different, as the COG was much lower than say a Focus RS. That was my last experience trying to get real performance out of a FF though, for any performance-oriented fun in the future it's FR or FX or go home.

I only mentioned it due to most decently modded FF cars will pull that wheel

you should do it, its more fun than it looks

 

[alkemyst]

I went with RCVD, or if that's too technical for you, read page 95 in How to Build a High-Performance Mazda Miata MX-5 where it says: "And that's the big lesson. Weight transfer will cost us total grip. That's bad for braking and cornering."

Well, you aren't understanding exactly what that means and on a vehicle specific book it's probably only applicable to that model.

 

[MotF Bane]

Well, you aren't understanding exactly what that means and on a vehicle specific book it's probably only applicable to that model.

Yes, the principles of vehicle dynamics with respect to traction are only applicable to a single front engine rear wheel drive vehicle.

Think about that for a minute.

 

[soccerballtux]

ok so I've installed the TRD rear sway bar, made a good difference in accelerating while turning, but the front left/right wheels still dive when turning while braking, decelerating, or maintaining speed.
I think the very first thing I need is a front sway bar-- I may not even care to upgrade my suspension.
Then new shocks&springs, and possibly struts (though visualizing the tension/compression/moments, I'm having trouble seeing where struts would make a noticeable difference (the firewall is already pretty hard). Struts are pretty cheap though so if I notice a bit of play, no biggie, I can buy them.

Overall I'm very happy with how this is turning out. I think the shocks+springs+Front Sway bar will be what I need to get close enough to my friend's BMW to be happy.

edit: wait take that back. Apparently the front sway bar will make the understeer worse, don't want that.

Still debating on the springs. I'm not sure those rates are going to be enough to keep me happy. Everything I'm reading says I'll need coilovers for solid tracking through the turns.

 

[soccerballtux]

Lifting a tire is always bad. It means you have 100% weight transfer and are getting less-than-optimal grip on that axle. Some cars can handle it just fine structurally, but it is very bad from a performance standpoint.

if I'm lowered 1.5" I'd say I'm very unlikely to lift a tire with both front + rear sway bars and new shocks and springs.

 

[soccerballtux]

Coilovers usually need attention paid to the locknuts time to time. Depends on brand...almost all will be sealed units so no oil maintenance.



Same or less as a regular strut/shock...some are rebuildable, some aren't...figure every 40-50k.

does the entire coilover need replacing, or just the springs?

 

[JCH13]

Well, you aren't understanding exactly what that means and on a vehicle specific book it's probably only applicable to that model.

Not sure if serious...

if I'm lowered 1.5" I'd say I'm very unlikely to lift a tire with both front + rear sway bars and new shocks and springs.

Possibly, but sway bars can make it easier to lift a wheel up, so can springs. And, like the RS showed, if you setup to minimize understeer you can lift an inside rear wheel all day. There are two ways to reduce understeer, one is to increase the front axle's grip, the other is to reduce the rear axle's grip. Stiffer springs and/or a bigger sway bar on the rear axle make it lose grip when cornering.

does the entire coilover need replacing, or just the springs?

Springs don't need to be replaced unless they're cracking, which is unlikely. The shock absorber is what typically needs replacing.

 

[soccerballtux]

Springs don't need to be replaced unless they're cracking, which is unlikely. The shock absorber is what typically needs replacing.

The springs don't degrade over time? IE the spring rate deforms to be non-linear +/| less than stock...

 

[JCH13]

The springs don't degrade over time? IE the spring rate deforms to be non-linear +/| less than stock...

Nope. Springs will maintain the same spring rate no matter what because the elastic modulus of the material will never change with time. I guess the one exception being enough rust/corrosion to remove a significant amount of material (highly unlikely), and if that happens the springs are likely to break anyway.

Springs can crack due to manufacturing defects, loss of temper (i.e. someone torching the spring to get a cheap drop), etc.

 

[jlee]

if I'm lowered 1.5" I'd say I'm very unlikely to lift a tire with both front + rear sway bars and new shocks and springs.

You'll have to drive the crap out of the car to lift a tire anyway - if you're not autocrossing, I'd bet it's not going to happen.

 

[JCH13]

You'll have to drive the crap out of the car to lift a tire anyway - if you're not autocrossing, I'd bet it's not going to happen.

True story.

 

[yottabit]

I'm at work so I haven't had time to read through this thread, just going to respond to the OP:

You CAN make your car handle much much better, and much *closer* to a BMW but realize you'll never get there.

1) More Aggressive Alignment
Gain a ton of responsiveness and outright grip while sacrificing nothing except some treadwear. Not sure about tCs but most macpherson strut cars can benefit from some added negative camber up front

2) Sticky summer tires
Tires make a world of difference in both responsiveness and outright grip

2) Bigger swaybars if your car needs them
Increase your effective spring rate without a harsh ride

3) Stiffer springs and struts
Don't go coilovers as they are typically brutal harsh ride and more expensive to maintain than a spring + strut combo, as well as wear out faster. For good handling you'll probably want the least drop, stiffest spring you can find. The more you drop your car the stiffer spring you'll need to reach the same effective spring rate. On my Saturn I have drop springs that are 1" drop and 2x the spring rate as OEM

4) Weight Reduction
Oddessy battery, etc

4) Polyurethane Suspension Bushings
Will eliminate the leftover play that you'll likely feel more pronounced now thanks to the other stiffened components, however this is pretty low on the list. At this point I'd rather spend my money on a racing seat because you likely won't be able to stay put in the OEM ones

5) Strut & subframe bracing only if your chassis requires it, I imagine most modern cars won't

That's it, also if you are running anything less than a 7" wide wheel I'd upgrade to a nice lightweight 17x7 or something of that sort when you up the tires

 

[JCH13]

3) Stiffer springs and struts
Don't go coilovers as they are typically brutal harsh ride and more expensive to maintain than a spring + strut combo, as well as wear out faster. For good handling you'll probably want the least drop, stiffest spring you can find. The more you drop your car the stiffer spring you'll need to reach the same effective spring rate. On my Saturn I have drop springs that are 1" drop and 2x the spring rate as OEM

Do you mean that the lower your drop the stiffer the spring you need to stay off your bump stops?

 

[MotF Bane]

You'll have to drive the crap out of the car to lift a tire anyway - if you're not autocrossing, I'd bet it's not going to happen.

And if you are lifting a tire while driving on the street, somebody like JLee might decide to ruin your day.

 

[JCH13]

You have no idea what you are talking about. The outside rear tire on many cars is nearly unloaded anyway in hard turns.

I'd read a basic suspension book, Fred Puhn's is dated but accurate and cheap.

Out of curiosity, I looked up Fred Puhn's How to Make Your Car Handle on Amazon, and found that I could preview most of the pages I was interested in. Page 44: "Increased weight transfer means reduced grip."

Apparently YOU should have read that book.

 

[amdhunter]

I asked myself the same thing.

I ended up with a 2011 335i sport.

lol

Wait - what? When?

 

[AdamK47]

Forget about the handling. Focus on the important stuff like a wing, decals, mufflers, etc.

 

[MotF Bane]

Out of curiosity, I looked up Fred Puhn's How to Make Your Car Handle on Amazon, and found that I could preview most of the pages I was interested in. Page 44: "Increased weight transfer means reduced grip."

Apparently YOU should have read that book.

Hahahaha! :awe:

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Wait - what? When?

About a month ago, sweet as hell ride.

 

[jlee]

 

[soccerballtux]

You CAN make your car handle much much better, and much *closer* to a BMW but realize you'll never get there.

thanks for believing in me!!! I knew i could do it!!! won't let the nasty trolls at ATF get me down!!