How the PlayStation 4 is better than a PC

[DaveSimmons]

Meh, fast RAM access to midrange GPU and weak AMD CPU cores.

Yes, it will beat $600 gaming PCs at launch. So what? That doesn't make it "better than a PC", just better than a cheap PC. Except for giving up mouse + KB. So not really better even there except for the graphics.

I have a PS3 and 360, but I play all cross-platform titles on my PC. I don't expect that to change with the PS4.

 

[JAG87]

The xbox 360 was unmatched up on release, and the ps4 was ahead of the game for about 1 day until the 8800gtx was released. Wasn't that card like $699? So, a year later, a $699 gpu was better than the consoles at the time. Brute force.

WTF...The xbox 360 was unmatched... you must be on crack or something.

A 7800 GTX 512MB, which released right around the same time frame, could pump out playable frame rates at 2048x1536 with MSAA.

Where the hell do you see the xbox 360 doing anything like that? 30 FPS at 1280x720 with no AA... unmatched... LOL

And nevermind when G80 came out a year later, the 360 and ps3 were already looking like museum pieces.

Nobody brought up curent consoles. You did, and then put zero context on your statement.

Dedicated GPU's from 6 years ago were not "Far" superior. They did have more hardware, but they were not able to handle the same workload due to the way consoles are more efficient with a given amount of hardware.

Yes they were. See example above. There is nothing efficient about a console that runs 1280x720 at 30 fps.

 

[Arkadrel]

I doubt most people (myself included) fully understand what type of benefits a unified memory system will have in terms of performance/latencies.

Thus I dont think its safe to say that PC is better at everything than a PS4 will be.

There could well be tasks that a PS4 can achieve that a PC just cant or match
because it doesnt have the same options (unified memory spaces).


like:

"First, we added another bus to the GPU that allows it to read directly from system memory or write directly to system memory, bypassing its own L1 and L2 caches. As a result, if the data that’s being passed back and forth between CPU and GPU is small, you don’t have issues with synchronization between them anymore. And by small, I just mean small in next-gen terms. We can pass almost 20 gigabytes a second down that bus. That’s not very small in today’s terms — it’s larger than the PCIe on most PCs!

What type of benefit's does "non synchronization issues between GPU & CPU" give in performance?

How much does this issue slow down current PCs?

"Next, to support the case where you want to use the GPU L2 cache simultaneously for both graphics processing and asynchronous compute, we have added a bit in the tags of the cache lines, we call it the ‘volatile’ bit. You can then selectively mark all accesses by compute as ‘volatile,’ and when it’s time for compute to read from system memory, it can invalidate, selectively, the lines it uses in the L2. When it comes time to write back the results, it can write back selectively the lines that it uses. This innovation allows compute to use the GPU L2 cache and perform the required operations without significantly impacting the graphics operations going on at the same time — in other words, it radically reduces the overhead of running compute and graphics together on the GPU."

So TressFX doesnt come with ANY performance hits now (nearly none)?
I guess that means more GPGPU in future games.

Thirdly, said Cerny, "The original AMD GCN architecture allowed for one source of graphics commands, and two sources of compute commands. For PS4, we’ve worked with AMD to increase the limit to 64 sources of compute commands — the idea is if you have some asynchronous compute you want to perform, you put commands in one of these 64 queues, and then there are multiple levels of arbitration in the hardware to determine what runs, how it runs, and when it runs, alongside the graphics that’s in the system."

So a PC GPU does 2 commands of GPGPU at a time?
But the PS4 has Queues of 64? which is 32 times more than a PC's?

 

[Olikan]

Shuttling information across the PCIe bus is not currently something limiting PC gaming performance. Also the PS4 does not have sufficient hardware to do ray-tracing in real time.

not bandwidth... but latency

that's why gpus today are "compute focused", they don't want to whait for the CPU to do it's job

 

[Sohaltang]

It's gonna beat sub 1000$ PCs for a while. Yeah if you wanna build a 2000$+ rig with a 1500$ monitor its gonna be better. 7x the cost it better. Most people have 1080p displays already and for 4-500$ will get a dedicated gaming machine that they won't have to work on.

Don't usederstand the hate, it's now an x86 based machine. That means better games for everyone. I hope it's wildly successful. PC to ps4 ports will be common so console users will get to play simcity and other PC only type games. Plug in a mouse and go.

 

[Enigmoid]

The xbox 360 was unmatched up on release, and the ps4 was ahead of the game for about 1 day until the 8800gtx was released. Wasn't that card like $699? So, a year later, a $699 gpu was better than the consoles at the time. Brute force.

Where as the ps3 is most decidedly using mid range components (possibly lower since it will be a while until it launches and either nvidia's or AMD's line could be refreshed) at release.

Mid range gpu and fairly weak cpu this cycle vs a top of the line gpu (or very close) last cycle (both consoles) and a fairly good cpu.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Don't usederstand the hate, it's now an x86 based machine. That means better games for everyone. I hope it's wildly successful. PC to ps4 ports will be common so console users will get to play simcity and other PC only type games. Plug in a mouse and go.

It's not "hate" to point out that the "better than PC" PR is not accurate.

"Better than a cheap PC with weak graphics card if you don't mind losing KB + Mouse" is a more accurate statement.

 

[Olikan]

Thus I dont think its safe to say that PC is better at everything than a PS4 will be.

nothing stops AMD/Nvidia putting some CPU cores inside it's GPUs...

 

[grimpr]

that's it....
PS4 is based on SEA ISLANDS.... aka GCN 2.0

Yeap, i believe it too, it has all the HSA directives in hardware and propably more custome ones designed for Sony, its a full HSA custom apu.

 

[Arkadrel]

nothing stops AMD/Nvidia putting some CPU cores inside it's GPUs...

Yes but I mean compaired to whats out on the market right now.

No PC for normal consumers, is able to do this:

64 sources of compute commands (asynchronously)
done alongsides Graphics Operations, without significantly impacting
the graphics operations going on at the same time.


Most current GPGPU operations (on a pc), would slow down Graphics operations,
if you ran both at once, and both where demanding.

Not so for the PS4.


You can work around it on a PC.
You could have 1 dedicated gard doing Graphics Operations,
and another doing say PhysX useing CUDA.

But if you do both at the same time, on only 1 card, there is a performance impact.
The performance hit depends on how demanding the GPGPU task is.


Imagine the PS4 haveing silly levels of PhysX that no PC is able to do.
Without havieng 2 titan GPUs or something silly like that, to match it.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

The xbox 360 was unmatched up on release, and the ps4 was ahead of the game for about 1 day until the 8800gtx was released. Wasn't that card like $699? So, a year later, a $699 gpu was better than the consoles at the time. Brute force.

To be fair, playing Oblivion on my X1900XT + E6600 looked so much better (as in clean and sharp) on 1280x1024 with 2xAA and 16xAF than it did on the Xbox 360's unscaled 720p. I was even allowed a few mods on the X1900XT. It probably ran around ~25fps, which isn't too far off what the the 360 was doing with much less quality.

Consoles only matched, or got ahead of PCs because of their requirements : 30fps, 720p at best, no AA. A 7600GT or X800 was probably capable of doing that when the 360 was released.

 

[blckgrffn]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=2

Original article as far as I know, interesting tidbits about future proofing.

They are certainly gambling on GPU compute in the next couple years allowing them to amplify the units ability to render some gorgeous stuff by more efficiently using the resources the GPU has. A convincing argument is also made as to why this will be hard if not impossible to do on the PC for some time.

That's the deal. A little compute focus will allow the GPU to render things more intelligently.

The more I read about the PS4 the more certain I am that its going to be awesome for the price and what it is. It is such a different machine than the PS3.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Yes but I mean compaired to whats out on the market right now.

No PC for normal consumers, is able to do this:

64 sources of compute commands (asynchronously)
done alongsides Graphics Operations, without significantly impacting
the graphics operations going on at the same time.


Most current GPGPU operations (on a pc), would slow down Graphics operations,
if you ran both at once, and both where demanding.

Not so for the PS4.


You can work around it on a PC.
You could have 1 dedicated gard doing Graphics Operations,
and another doing say PhysX useing CUDA.

But if you do both at the same time, on only 1 card, there is a performance impact.

Yes, having a built-in async queue for background processing of OpenCL work is nice, but if the PC graphics card is faster it might still do both the rendering and compute work in less time with the CPU / programmer or game engine controlling the queuing instead.

It's like saying "more CPU cores is better!" as a blanket statement, when 2 fast cores in an intel i3 beat the stuffing out of 4-6 slow AMD cores in real-world gaming performance.

Edit: which is NOT a slam against the PS4. The goal was to make a developer-friendly x86 gaming platform that offered good performance while being cheap to make and low-power. They seem to have succeeded. I'm only pointing out that this isn't magically better than a Titan or 7970 and fast i5 or i7 CPU.

 

[Olikan]

Yes but I mean compaired to whats out on the market right now.

so what?
same thing happened to xbox 360, untill it got destroyed...

and even without all that... a 7850 is faster than MANY gpus in the market... just look at steam survey...

(ps. i have a HD4650 :ninja

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Ps4/xbox are obsolete. The console kiddies are either too stupid or lack the funds to get a real gaming PC.

 

[Arkadrel]

Yes, having a built-in async queue for background processing of OpenCL work is nice, but if the PC graphics card is faster it might still do both the rendering and compute work in less time with the CPU / programmer or game engine controlling the queuing instead.

Well if Consols start useing ALOT of OpenCL, we better hope future AMD & Nvidia cards do OpenCL really well, or their games (ps4) will run slow on PCs, or have features turn down on PCs

 

[Imouto]

Ps4/xbox are obsolete. The console kiddies are either too stupid or lack the funds to get a real gaming PC.

Or they can enjoy, you know, just playing games.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Or they can enjoy, you know, just playing games.

That's fine. Just don't go about trying to smear lipstick on a pig. The ps4 is a low level PC subsidized so the jobless 25 year old stay at home dad can play Madden all day.

 

[3DVagabond]

nothing stops AMD/Nvidia putting some CPU cores inside it's GPUs...

Except the industry is going the other way, GPU cores in the CPU.

 

[Imouto]

That's fine. Just don't go about trying to smear lipstick on a pig. The ps4 is a low level PC subsidized so the jobless 25 year old stay at home dad can play Madden all day.

And expensive PCs are for 30+ year old unmarried virgins.

Your point?

 

[TidusZ]

And expensive PCs are for 30+ year old unmarried virgins.

Your point?

this thread is going places

 

[Olikan]

Except the industry is going the other way, GPU cores in the CPU.

zebra is black striped, or zebra is white striped ?

 

[sontin]

Starting next year with nVidia's Logan you get the same features even in smartphones and tablets. In 3 years from now you get the same GPU performance in a smartphone or in a tablet.

Consoles are dead. :|

 

[Sohaltang]

It's not "hate" to point out that the "better than PC" PR is not accurate.

"Better than a cheap PC with weak graphics card if you don't mind losing KB + Mouse" is a more accurate statement.

Bluetooth KB and mouse work on some PS3 games. It's up to the developer to make it work.

So what is a cheap comparable retail PC? And what do those cost after adding a cheap graphics card? Make sure you include a bluray drive and software to play dvd and blue ray its not in windows. Wifi N adapter and a 50$ controller.

 

[Sohaltang]

Starting next year with nVidia's Logan you get the same features even in smartphones and tablets. In 3 years from now you get the same GPU performance in a smartphone or in a tablet.

Consoles are dead. :|

PC's are dead too.