How the PlayStation 4 is better than a PC

[Erenhardt]

If PS4 design allow GPU and CPU use the same memory without shuffling data back and forth via PCI bus - that's going to be a huge deal.

Some say: PCIe 3.0 gives no improvements to game performance over PCIe 2.0, despite doubling the available bandwidth. Bandwidth is one thing, but latency is the other.
GPU needs data. What it does is:
Take data from VGA memory -> processing -> copy results to VGA memory.
Now you need input data:


http://www.nvidia.com/content/GTC/documents/1122_GTC09.pdf

Here you can see GPU working directly on the data (DMA) from the PCI device. The route looks like:
Device --PCI transfer(+latency)--> system memory (DDR3) --PCI transfer(+latency)--> VGA memory --> Processing --> Results back to VGA memory
If we talk about feeding a GPU it often adds CPU processing to the route (API and what not).
If GPU in PS4 have access directly to memory with results from CPU via memory bus - that can be huge.

http://www.idi.ntnu.no/~elster/master-studs/runejoho/ms-proj-gpgpu-latency-bandwidth.pdf

The chipset proved to give the expected influence over the latency and the bandwidth. However, the two Intel and NVIDIA chipsets we tested probably had different design goals, given that one is mainly a processor manufacturer whereas the other is primarily a graphics cards manufacturer. Our point was not to show that one is better than the other, but that one needs to pay attention to the chipset and ones goal when building a CPU - GPU system for HPC.
However, performance for the two chipsets supports the model in the sense that the chipset are a key component in the GPU system.
One of our more clear results, was the influence of the PCI Express bus.
Both the latency and bandwidth showed good improvements when overclocking the bus. Overclocking is not an exact science, and there might be additional effects from this alteration, but the results show an improvement.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/04/amds-heterogeneous-uniform-memory-access-coming-this-year-in-kaveri/

As well as being useful for GPGPU programming, this may also find use in the GPU's traditional domain: graphics. Normally, 3D programs have to use lots of relatively small textures to apply textures to their 3D models. When the GPU has access to demand paging, it becomes practical to use single large textures—larger than will even fit into the GPU's memory—loading the portions of the texture on an as-needed basis. id Software devised a similar technique using existing hardware for Enemy Territory: Quake Wars and called it MegaTexture. With hUMA, developers will get MegaTexture-like functionality built-in.

The big difficulty for AMD is that merely having hUMA isn't enough. Developers actually have to write programs that take advantage of it. hUMA will certainly make developing mixed CPU/GPU software easier, but given AMD's low market share, it's not likely that developers will in any great hurry to rewrite their software to take advantage of it. We asked company representatives if Intel or NVIDIA were going to implement HSA. We're still awaiting an answer.

 

[Erenhardt]

Yeah, but how often do games do GPU <--> RAM interactions?

I'll give you a clue: not during normal operation, and not before you hit multi-monitor setups. It takes something like heavily modded 1080p Skyrim or a 5760*1200 setup to actually use more than 3GB VRAM. Even then, the next generation of graphics cards are already reaching to 6GB of VRAM--about as much as the PS4 could have available after the CPU calculations and OS take their share.

Ram swapping and GPU <-> RAM communication are 2 other things.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Smells like marketing BS to me. If this was the big game changer as Sony would have you believe then AMD would be hyping this for the desktop space as well. Obviously if they had a $400 configuration that would compete with a high end PC then they'd bring it to market. Sure they might have found a small bottleneck that will improve performance by 2% but it's not a big game changer.

I really don't know what's so hard to understand about this whole thing. It's a nice little gaming rig for what it is. It's a low/mid range piece of hardware. End of story. You can't make a Honda civic faster than a bugati veyron. Sure you can tune it up and put a fart can on the civic but it will never be a supercar.

 

[Melina42]

Yes, marketing kerfluffle from wanna-be nerds...... trying to hide the fact PS4/720 will be boring little cheapie PCs in a shiny new box.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Smells like marketing BS to me. If this was the big game changer as Sony would have you believe then AMD would be hyping this for the desktop space as well. Obviously if they had a $400 configuration that would compete with a high end PC then they'd bring it to market. Sure they might have found a small bottleneck that will improve performance by 2% but it's not a big game changer.

I really don't know what's so hard to understand about this whole thing. It's a nice little gaming rig for what it is. It's a low/mid range piece of hardware. End of story. You can't make a Honda civic faster than a bugati veyron. Sure you can tune it up and put a fart can on the civic but it will never be a supercar.

Well, it is a specialized device designed for one thing and one thing only--gaming. A cpu like the one in the PS4 would be a joke for a real PC. We havent had a less than 2ghz cpu in a desktop PC in what 10 years?

Again, I think it will be a very good device for gaming for the price. That is all it is. Despite all the claims, no one knows what the performance will be, but I expect it to be similar to a relatively high end PC now, but not the PC killer that is being touted endlessly in this thread.

 

[HurleyBird]

This thread is so full of fail that it hurts.

Obviously, if games aren't programmed to take advantage of low latency between CPU and GPU the PC will still be the faster platform -- though the lack of overhead is going to make the PS4 hardware perform better than similar PC hardware, perhaps more on a HD7970/50 level than the ~HD7850 level it should be at.

Conversely, if games are aggressively programmed to exploit low latency GPU/CPU interaction, no amount of brute force is going to bridge that gap in a system where the CPU and GPU are communicating over PCIe. You are only as fast as your slowest bottleneck. To think otherwise is deluded fanboy-level wishful thinking.

With that in mind, here are some easy predictions:

1. At launch, cross platform games will still run better on a super high end PC. The PS4 will put up a respectable showing regardless due to the strength of it's hardware, especially the GPU.

2. Exclusives will utilize the low latency, integrated architecture. Less so at launch, and more so as time goes on. Though these games will never be played on a PC, they would probably run terribly on even a high end PC if they were ported. Some of these exclusives are going to push boundaries in ways that make PC gamers jealous.

3. PCs are already moving towards a more PS4 like architecture, with both Intel and AMD pushing for tightly integrated heterogeneous computing. At some point in the PS4's life-cycle the PC will have the required hardware and software infrastructure to make heterogeneous computing ubiquitous and the PS4 will lose it's advantage over PC gaming.

 

[SlickR12345]

Precisely, Quantic Dream says the PS4 is as a gaming PC of 2014 or 2015.



Most gaming PCs have about 1-2 GB VRAM. The PS4 has 8 GB.

Actually if you look at steam who have the most comprehensive database, most people have 4GB ram and a large and growing portion of 8GB.

Most people also have 4 cores, compared to other single, dual or 6/8 cores.

So again, the PS4 may even be a bit better than a high end PC, though highly unlikely as an I7 3970x coupled with 8GB 1800+ memory and a Titan GPU is likely to still be faster than a PS4.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

If by miracle the ps4 is on par with titan I'll buy one and gladly hang up PC gaming. Although when I bought the ps3 I was lead to believe it was on par with a gaming PC. I gamed on it for 10 minutes and used it as a bluray player after that until I sold it. It was absolute overhyped garbage IMO. Much as I suspect the ps4 will be.

 

[Blitzvogel]

I would buy the PS4 for the exclusives and as a Blu-Ray player, much like I did the PS3. Multiplatform games will be best on PC!

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Same crowd that buys a 95 civic then puts a fart can and a k&n filter on it then claims to outrun Corvettes is the same crowd hyping up a low end PC based ps4 to be on par with Titan. No surprise.

 

[Dark Shroud]

While several of you are bickering & baiting over the PS4 vs PC you're missing the best aspect of this new console. The PS4 and the Xbox 3rd gen are going to raise the minimum bar for across the board performance.

Having games being better coded for x64, multi-threading, and using plenty of system ram are very good things.

 

[Olikan]

While several of you are bickering & baiting over the PS4 vs PC you're missing the best aspect of this new console. The PS4 and the Xbox 3rd gen are going to raise the minimum bar for across the board performance.

Having games being better coded for x64, multi-threading, and using plenty of system ram are very good things.

yep... main reason that i am reading about jaguar, GCN 2.0 and hNUMA

 

[-Slacker-]

So are there some numbers on the internet showing how much faster a machine with low chip <-> memory latency is than one with high latency? Or do we just assume the shared addressing space is the second coming now that people are starting to realize the whole 8 gb gddr5 isn't what it's all cracked up to be?

 

[Olikan]

So are there some numbers on the internet showing how much faster a machine with low chip <-> memory latency is than one with high latency? Or do we just assume the shared addressing space is the second coming now that people are starting to realize the whole 8 gb gddr5 isn't what it's all cracked up to be?

that's not how consoles works, the fast latencys won't help much for several years...

like deferred shading, it took years to someone realise that consoles work well using it...

 

[BallaTheFeared]

When the PS3 was released it was behind PCs in GFLOP, but outperformed them for years.

This is what happens when you don't let facts deter you from achieving your agenda.

 

[Jaydip]

lol Balla awesome

 

[VulgarDisplay]

This is what happens when you don't let facts deter you from achieving your agenda.

This is what happens when you actually think people have an agenda. :whiste:

How can we have an agenda on this forum when EVERYONE is being payed by AMD to post. No sense trying to convince other AMD employees.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

So you're talking the side of a clearly AMD cpu/apu bias user who is defaming PC gaming and using false principles to make his case?

Having an agenda doesn't mean being employed by said company, everyone has their own agenda. Perhaps the wordplay is too much for you?

Though you're right, I stopped trying to argue directly with him. There is no point trying to, clearly his mind is made up and the world he lives in is as well to support his point of view. That doesn't mean I can't continue to point out the logical fallacies in his posts, like how everything he was quoting had nothing to do whatsoever with direct gpu performance overhead.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I wasn't taking a side. More commenting on the ridiculous nature of the banter in this thread.

I don't think he's even AMD cpu/gpu biased. He's a console user who desperately wants his $400 box to be better than a gaming PC.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Well you clearly haven't viewed his post history then.

 

[2is]

I wasn't taking a side. More commenting on the ridiculous nature of the banter in this thread.

I don't think he's even AMD cpu/gpu biased. He's a console user who desperately wants his $400 box to be better than a gaming PC.

He's both, that much is obvious from posts in other threads.

 

[Rakehellion]

If this was the big game changer as Sony would have you believe then AMD would be hyping this for the desktop space as well.

They are.

 

[futurefields]

Tomorrow's technology.... today!

 

[-Slacker-]

that's not how consoles works, the fast latencys won't help much for several years...

like deferred shading, it took years to someone realise that consoles work well using it...

So what's the added advantage that the ps4 will have at launch over a pc that the 7th gen didn't have then?

 

[Aikouka]

And you continue picking out a pair of phrases from the article and calling it sensationalist

When the first paragraph is full of pure bollocks, then yes, I will call you out on it when you attempt to provide the article as evidence to your claim.

when what says is 100% true

...and I've shown that it is not 100% true.

The PS4 has a architectural advantage here over a traditional PC design in modern gaming PCs.

I'm not disagreeing that given the same processing capability (i.e. same CPU cores, same GPU cores, same memory), hUMA should provide an advantage.

They added an another bus to the GPU that allows it to read directly from system memory or write directly to system memory, This eliminates another bottleneck from the system.

Why is it that you continue to ignore the actual question that I present. I'm not talking about the memory busses that the computation units use, I'm talking about the processing capability of the computation units! It's great that you can get the data quickly, but it doesn't help much if your computation units aren't fast enough to process them compared to more expensive, and/or hotter running devices.

I'm not saying that the PS4 will necessarily be slower, but it's worthwhile to consider that the computation units may not be as fast.

As stated before hUMA improves performance as well

I specifically asked whether hUMA will do anything more than make GPGPU easier to code for. If I'm reading these links correctly, the articles are mostly talking about aspects of hUMA that will benefit GPGPU through heterogeneous computing.

Let me be a bit more specific. I recall reading earlier how people said that currently, developers try to keep computation to only the GPU or only the CPU. How much performance advantage would you have by prioritizing them to the superior computation unit, and how much easier is it to code the swapping? I'm a software engineer, but I don't work in gaming. (Thankfully!)

Yes it has hUMA. Sure 100%? No. I am not sure 100% about anything. I am not even 100% sure that the PS4 will have jaguar cores @ 1.6 GHz.

If you're not 100% sure, then you can't say "yes." I'm being picky because a lot of the arguments are pretty much presenting the axiom that the PS4 has hUMA, but that hasn't really been solidified.

I think I already recalled before that they designed the PS4 hardware for next gen games. Benchmarks on a Ivi Bridge (which is essentially insensitive to ram speed) with older games says nothing.

Umm... it says plenty to the argument that CPU bandwidth matters while gaming.