I agree with you that fundamentalists distort the meaning. But a majority of Christians (including myself, as well as Catholics) would also agree they are "born again". So don't use the term to define fanatical whackos.
I agree with you that fundamentalists distort the meaning. But a majority of Christians (including myself, as well as Catholics) would also agree they are "born again". So don't use the term to define fanatical whackos.
To the extent they use "born again" it would not be useful because it has a completely different meaning. I have never heard a catholic outside of this bbs refer to themselves as a born again. It is safe to use "born again" as a term that encompasses certain protestants. Everybody understands it to mean certain protestants.
I'm hardly going to take the time to feed a troll with my personal life story, especially after the answer for the general case has already been supplied. I can't believe that you really give a rat's about me personally, so kindly stop pretending that you do.
You flip-flopped. Of course you weren't going to answer the simple questions even. You brought your personal life into the debate and keep trying to ask for my experience with particular religions. But if someone calls you on it you flip-flop, don't stay the course, and run even though you said you would answer the questions if I answered yours. Ciao. :thumbsdown:
Nice weaselage from someone who had no arguments left. Face it, your own site rejects your definition of born again. When gallup did a survey of people describing themselves as born again, I can assure you 99% of catholics didn't define themselves as born again. Now try another weasel edit if it makes you happy.
I didn't weasel out of anything. I know that the website I posted clearly explained that Catholics do consider themselves to be born again, as Jesus required it for entering Heaven. All denominations have disputes over how to interpret the Bible (or else we wouldn't have different denominations), but the fact remains that they are born again.
But beyond the question of whether or not Catholics are (are they the only "good" Christians?), my point was to prove that most Protestants also consider themselves born again. Did you read in the article when they mentioned Calvanist Presbyterians? Presbyterians also consider themselves "born again" and are hardly fundamentalists. Presbyterian churches are rather liberal. My father is a Presbyterian minister, so I know something about the subject. He has his Doctorate of Theology, and was one of the 10 finalists in the Times of London's Preacher of the Year award a few years ago. So I think he knows something about the subject, and has taught me plenty. I refuse to discuss it with someone who has no knowledge on the subject, but his own discrimination and biases.
Again, nice weaselage. Why bother making arguments if this is your position? Just stop posting.
You are taking a very legalistic definition of "born again". I am taking the popular definition of the term, which applies to people that really focus on the idea and identity of born again.
Here, libs like wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born-again_Christian
Whereas it does admit, "the term is most frequently used by Evangelical Protestants," it also states, "most Christian denominations would agree that a true Christian must be born again, based on the above passage, and thus that those who are true Christians are in fact born again, whether they describe themselves as such or not."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born-again_Christian
Whereas it does admit, "the term is most frequently used by Evangelical Protestants," it also states, "most Christian denominations would agree that a true Christian must be born again, based on the above passage, and thus that those who are true Christians are in fact born again, whether they describe themselves as such or not."
No, I know that most people brought up in the church, and have an intellectual understanding of theology, understand that the idea of being born again is important in the Christian doctrine, and don't appreciate it being distorted to mean the whacko nutjob Christians.
Your definition applies to people who know nothing about religion, but want it to mean whatever they want. You weasel out of admitting I'm proving my point, and revert to believing your athiest-defined terminology.
FROM YOUR LINK:
However the term is most frequently used by Evangelical Protestants, where it is often associated with an intense conversion experience and an encounter of the individual with the power of God.
I already quoted that in my post! Yes, I realize certain fanatical denominations have that definition. But that does not definie the term, as Jesus used it. They don't get monopoly on the definition of "born again".
Look, this is dumb. I will take your advice, and stop posting on the subject. This is like trying to explain quantum physics to the typical uneduacted, unempoyed democrat. Futile!
Originally posted by: Rob9874
Look, this is dumb. I will take your advice, and stop posting on the subject. This is like trying to explain quantum physics to the typical uneduacted, unempoyed democrat. Futile!
Another temper tantrum because you don't get your way. You should definitely stop posting so you quit being pwn3d by your own links.
I'm not talking about what you think Jesus's definition is. I'm talking the popular meaning of it. Like the wikipedia says, it's most often associated with Evangelicals. Thus using born again as a loose synonym of evangelicals is widely understood and par for the course.
An evangelist is someone who preaches a version of the Gospels, not an evangelical.
In recent years, fundamentalist Christians are increasingly known by the more PC name evangelical Christians. English is a dynamic language.
Hey, if you voted for Bush, you voted for a government to give away your money (and your children's money to pay his debts) faster than any American government has in its history.
Well, that's your problem. Not every Christian falls into your bucket of whack-job fundamentalist nuts. I have arguments with Christian co-workers all the time (who claim I'm not a "real" Christian), because I don't believe the earth was created in 7 days, I think the universe is billions of years old, I watch rated-R movies, I curse, I drink, I like Halloween and Santa, and so on and so on. Sorry if I don't care what a newbie asshat who doesn't know me form Adam thinks about my faith.
not to steal the thread even more but...
i think part of the problem is that the fundie-type Christians you describe
seem to have a monopoly on media attention, leading to the misidentification
of fundie theology with more mainstream christian theology in a lot of minds.
Others have dodged your question so I'll answer it for you from my perspective.
Evangelical Christians (and many other Christians for that matter) consider the Bible to be the word of God and 100% true beyond all doubt. They then take things a step further by forcing this view upon their friends, colleagues, and neighbours. (Again, not all Christians, but this is my experience with a large number of evangelicals).
In our society this type of stance is typically seen as combative and irrational. How can one be 100% certain of something when there is no definitive and concrete proof that their views are valid? Then take it a step further and realize that these people are forcing an opinion onto others which may in fact be 100% contrary to what God wants.
Many of them go on to do missionary work, which appears to be charitable but in reality their main purpose is to impose their opinion onto others. From their perspective this is a noble act, but others see it as controlling and manipulative.
Bottom line: yes, it's both the message AND the manner in which they present. They pass off their faith as fact. If a group of people started trying to tell you that Liberalism was guaranteed to fix America's problems, I'm sure you would be able to relate to this type of frustration. :beer:
Religion has always been a "taboo" subject and will continue to be one until God himself shows up in his robe and lets us all know what's going on.
BTW, with regard to your comment that "they all have the same message", I take issue with that and highly disagree with it. If you're talking about the existence of a supreme being then ok, but beyond that it gets extremely fuzzy.
Good for you. :beer:
Religion is something personal. Any Christian knows that it is only up to God to pass judgement on people. In my experience, fellow Christians can be very critical of one another. I find it ironic given the overall message of the faith.
BTW I share your issues w/ fundamentalists. Read my post above.
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Rob9874
Look, this is dumb. I will take your advice, and stop posting on the subject. This is like trying to explain quantum physics to the typical uneduacted, unempoyed democrat. Futile!
Another temper tantrum because you don't get your way. You should definitely stop posting so you quit being pwn3d by your own links.
I'm not talking about what you think Jesus's definition is. I'm talking the popular meaning of it. Like the wikipedia says, it's most often associated with Evangelicals. Thus using born again as a loose synonym of evangelicals is widely understood and par for the course.
Both Rob and Infohawk are right. The popular notion of being born again is limited to evangelical Christians, and the popular image that people get from it seems to be similar to the stereotypes parroted by the fundamentalphobes on this board; that's why I don't like using the term. However, ALL Christians are born again by the biblical definition; "born-again Christian" is a redundant term. The process of being born again is described in Romans 10:9-10. Sadly, most nominal Christians are probably not born again because they never have sincerely and completely submitted to the lordship of Jesus, or they deny the sufficiency and exclusivity of Jesus' death and resurrection, apart from all other works or events, to clear their sins and give them eternal life.
Because noone wants to pay for war. If that were your system, your nation would be at peace right now, and would not have been involved in over 50 military conflicts over the past 50 years.
IMO war is only necessary in extreme circumstances. The bombing of Pearl Harbour is a good example. 9/11 is another, however you need to declare war on the correct enemy.
I am a Christian -- pretty close to the kind Rob is, and I know many what I would call fundamentalist, who don't drink or smoke, and are anti-abortion. These people listen to 'Christian music'.
(an aside: doesn't fundamentalist just mean someone who concentrates on the basics? Like in grade school we learn about the fundamentals of math, meaning the basics of math. If this is the case, than I would say I try to be a fundamentalist Christian. But in this post I will use fundamentalist in the popular sense)
These fundamentalists I know are awesome people (well, most of them anyway). If you met them you wouldn't think they were crazy. You'd think they were nice, patient, modest, and fun-loving people.
Keep in mind that I live in Canada, but most of the fundamentalists I know are slightly left of center. They vote for a platform that spends more on social programs (for the poor and such), and they vote for a platform that spends less on the military.
Hell, my sister-in-law is a Christian, and she's gay. I don't know her well enough to tell if she's a fundamentalist or not, but she is attending a Christian theological institute, so she's probably pretty close to one.
But to Rob and Infohawk: you guys getting all personal about the definition of born again?! You both admitted that it can mean either one. Life is too short to spend on issues like that
(an aside: doesn't fundamentalist just mean someone who concentrates on the basics? Like in grade school we learn about the fundamentals of math, meaning the basics of math. If this is the case, than I would say I try to be a fundamentalist Christian. But in this post I will use fundamentalist in the popular sense)
These fundamentalists I know are awesome people (well, most of them anyway). If you met them you wouldn't think they were crazy. You'd think they were nice, patient, modest, and fun-loving people.
Keep in mind that I live in Canada, but most of the fundamentalists I know are slightly left of center. They vote for a platform that spends more on social programs (for the poor and such), and they vote for a platform that spends less on the military.
Hell, my sister-in-law is a Christian, and she's gay. I don't know her well enough to tell if she's a fundamentalist or not, but she is attending a Christian theological institute, so she's probably pretty close to one.
But to Rob and Infohawk: you guys getting all personal about the definition of born again?! You both admitted that it can mean either one. Life is too short to spend on issues like that
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
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"Born Again" is just the Christian form of "Repent". It is only recently that it has been turned into an Event, but it is merely the changing from one way of thinking to another. If you study other religions you'll see that Events are a very common part of being Religious and that these Events have a lot in common with each other.
The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes "Fruits" or resulting changes in one's life as the basis or True Conversion and not an Event as such. A point that many "Born Agains" seem to de-emphasize in their fixation on the Event.
The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes "Fruits" or resulting changes in one's life as the basis or True Conversion and not an Event as such. A point that many "Born Agains" seem to de-emphasize in their fixation on the Event.
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