How many in here are familiar with Evangelicals?

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SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Is preaching really the same thing as forcing their views on you? Are they abducting people and taking them to church? Not that I'm aware of. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with their approach (as I don't for the most part), but it is an approach that falls under the premise of freedom of speech/expression/religion. Until someone can point out why they are not privy to these same rights, I'll continue to support their expression of them. From the evangelicals I know, they believe that what they have is analagous to the cure to a disease that is suffered by every member of humanity. If you had such a cure, I would hope you would do your darndest to make other people aware of it. Obviously, you can't force anyone to be cured when they don't want to be, but you would be completely remiss if you didnt' at least offer the opportunity.
In all honesty, a person who is stating their opinion to me but is unwilling to listen to my own opinion is "forcing their opinion" upon me (in all honesty, CycloWizard, your early posts reminded me of this, hence my stance toward your "religion" which at that point in time I thought was evangelism).

It's similar to someone standing at a busy urban streetcorner with a megaphone subjecting everyone to their nonsense. I understand that it falls under free speech, but I personally don't appreciate it and neither do most people in my experience. I have a very close friend who I've known since I was 5 years old, and he's this way. I also worked in a small office where the boss was like this. I can tell you that it's extremely frustrating, and it completely sours my opinion on their religion(s). The funny part is that neither one of them respects the other's church. According to my old boss, my friend's church is a "rebel church" because guitars, pianos, and drums are used for the church band. In his view this is "rock and roll", and his definition of the meaning of those three words was interesting to say the least.
Faith. If you have faith, then there is no proof required, nor would proof even stengthen your beliefs. It is impossible to completely describe to someone that doesn't have it, but the evangelicals try their best to explain what it is they have. The base Christian teachings are founded on solid ethics - I don't believe that anyone could really think that God would really want things that were unethical.
Yes. Faith. I have faith but I also have the abilities to rationalize and evaluate things for myself, which I feel are gifts God gave to humans. If God gave us this mental capacity, why shouldn't we question religion, and why shouldn't we evaluate things for ourselves? I refuse to take the word of 30 people 2,000 years ago and the countless others who revised and re-wrote what they first said. I simply can't bring myself to take it literally.
Ah, so we're to the crux of the matter. Here you make a very good analgoy - comparing the premise of liberalism and Christianity. Why is it so different for someone to tell you about their religion than it is for people on this forum to tell me about liberalism? Many people discuss and debate politics in person, why not religion? I have one answer to this, but I want to see if you arrive at the same conclusion before I give you my thoughts. :p
Well, the fact of the matter is that most people aren't religious. 25% of people go to church every Sunday if that. I already outlined why people take issue with zealots who take the Bible literally and force their views upon others. People who preach liberalism on the neocons without considering the opposite point of view are just as bad, and are probably considered just as offensive by the neocons (sorry, neocon is the easiest term; I'm not trying to degrade anyone). People don't debate religion in person because it's a touchy subject and has much more serious personal consequences if not followed (or so the zealots tell me).

I suppose I could guess that people generally share a distrust for the government, so discussing politics can be lighthearted, and people from all sides can agree that politicians are a bunch of crooks for the most part. Religion, well, most of the time people are damning people to hell, and this is much more serious. :evil:
Nice post. :thumbsup:
Thanks, I enjoyed yours too. I don't think you're even close to the troll that some people on here seem to think you are. I took issue with your vacation, and honestly I think you're well informed and bring alot to the discussion here at AT. :beer:
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Yes. Faith. I have faith but I also have the abilities to rationalize and evaluate things for myself, which I feel are gifts God gave to humans. If God gave us this mental capacity, why shouldn't we question religion, and why shouldn't we evaluate things for ourselves? I refuse to take the word of 30 people 2,000 years ago and the countless others who revised and re-wrote what they first said. I simply can't bring myself to take it literally.
This is where I will absolutely agree with you. Sounds like you've been reading the Catholic Catechism with this statement. ;)
I suppose I could guess that people generally share a distrust for the government, so discussing politics can be lighthearted, and people from all sides can agree that politicians are a bunch of crooks for the most part. Religion, well, most of the time people are damning people to hell, and this is much more serious. :evil:
As for myself, I cannot see how one can separate his political and religious views. I believe that if you hold a 'religious' belief, then it should be held very deeply and your political beliefs must coincide with it. Sounds like you agree, but just wanted to state this explicitly.
Thanks, I enjoyed yours too. I don't think you're even close to the troll that some people on here seem to think you are. I took issue with your vacation, and honestly I think you're well informed and bring alot to the discussion here at AT. :beer:
*blushes* :p

As for the bit about forcing beliefs on people, I see what you're saying. I think it's totally disingenuous to go into any debate with a closed mind without even the possibility that you're wrong, whether the debate be political, religious, or otherwise. I'm not sure how this definition can be extrapolated to the government or society in general, but it is certainly applicable on a personal level, and this forum would be a much better place if people would abide by it.

That said, I believe that if someone has firmly established his belief based on sound logic, reason, and evidence, then he should be willing to defend it against others. You've undoubtedly notice myself doing this on certain issues, but not on all issues. I do this on issues that I have exhausted a great deal of time and effort to determine the proper position. It's hardly a trivial task to convince people that you're right when they're not willing to dedicate the same amount of energy to investigating the issue - frustrating at best.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Geekbabe
my future mother in law is a sweet lady,probably one of the nicest people I know.She's so nice that I don't have the heart to tell her that the bulk of the emails she forwards to me are marked as spam and deleted without even being opened because words like "pray" and "jesus" are in the subject line.

Out of deference to her status as my honey's mother and her age I smile and nod when she discusses church,pray etc.I suspect that I might not get the same reception if I were to be as blunt and open about my set of beliefs.

What's worse is My Pie Faced Bitch of a Sister is an Ordained Evangelista Priestess too There's a lot of "Praise Jesus" and "Hallelujahs" said at our Families dinner table during family get togethers..much to the chagrin of my Father and the rest of us who are normal.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Both Rob and Infohawk are right. The popular notion of being born again is limited to evangelical Christians, and the popular image that people get from it seems to be similar to the stereotypes parroted by the fundamentalphobes on this board; that's why I don't like using the term. However, ALL Christians are born again by the biblical definition; "born-again Christian" is a redundant term.

True, but if someone calls themselves a born-again Christian and not just a Christian when describing their religion, they mean that they belong to one of the fundamentalist/evangelical branches of Christianity.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
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I've always assumed it was because they take the bible on its most basic level (ie: literally).

The core problem with Biblical literalism is that it results in a tremendously wide diversity of interpretations. The Biblical literalists don't agree with each other on how to interpret their Bibles literally. The fact isn't helped by the diversity of Bibles (66 books for the Protestants, 77 for the Catholics, and even more for the Orthodox, Coptic, Nestorian, and Ethiopian Bibles) or the diversity of interpretations.

I suspect many literalists think that translating the Bible is a simple, mechanical process, not realizing that not only is translating 2000-year old Greek to modern English not a trivial task but we also have multiple different incomplete Greek versions of all the early Christian texts. Some of the differences are small: "fit a camel hair through the eye of a needle" versus "fit a camel through the eye of the needle." However, other differences are major, such as the absence of Mark 16:9-20 from all early versions of that Gospel. Later versions have two alternate endings, one of which is the one Catholics and Protestants use today, that of Mark 16:9-20, but the other of which is both shorter and completely different.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
At least that's what you, I and many others believe. However if they choose to believe the opposite then that's fine as long as they don't push their beliefs on the rest as the undeniable truth. Most normal Christians don't do that, however the Evangelists and the Fund A Mental Cases do and there is where the problem lies, not only for those who are not Christians but those who are normal Christians.

 

Rob9874

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 1999
3,314
1
81
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.

Thanks for that insight Anne. I never thought of that before. How could I be so stupid? How can I repay you for your wonderful enlightenment? You've saved me years of having to get up early on Sundays!
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Rob9874
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.

Thanks for that insight Anne. I never thought of that before. How could I be so stupid? How can I repay you for your wonderful enlightenment? You've saved me years of having to get up early on Sundays!
Just goes to show how powerful religious indoctrination can be!

 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Rob9874
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.

Thanks for that insight Anne. I never thought of that before. How could I be so stupid? How can I repay you for your wonderful enlightenment? You've saved me years of having to get up early on Sundays!
Just goes to show how powerful religious indoctrination can be!

Or anti-religious indoctrination.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
:cookie:

I can only assume that you're as right about this as you were about the elections. Go take your drama-queen act somewhere else.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Rob9874
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.

Thanks for that insight Anne. I never thought of that before. How could I be so stupid? How can I repay you for your wonderful enlightenment? You've saved me years of having to get up early on Sundays!
Just goes to show how powerful religious indoctrination can be!

Or anti-religious indoctrination.
You mean reality?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
:cookie:

I can only assume that you're as right about this as you were about the elections. Go take your drama-queen act somewhere else.

Have you no shame cyclowizard. That post was not a troll. You simply don't have a response to it. Just fess up.
 

Rob9874

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 1999
3,314
1
81
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
:cookie:

I can only assume that you're as right about this as you were about the elections. Go take your drama-queen act somewhere else.

Have you no shame cyclowizard. That post was not a troll. You simply don't have a response to it. Just fess up.

That post was such a troll post! Are you crazy?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall

Or anti-religious indoctrination.

What kind of anti-religious indoctrination are you talking about?

Those who reject the Bible without ever reading it.

So those who reject the Bible without reading it are "anti-religious indoctrination"? :confused:
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
:cookie:

I can only assume that you're as right about this as you were about the elections. Go take your drama-queen act somewhere else.

Have you no shame cyclowizard. That post was not a troll. You simply don't have a response to it. Just fess up.

LOL. Like I told you via PM, you can't convince a troll that they are a troll.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
:cookie:

I can only assume that you're as right about this as you were about the elections. Go take your drama-queen act somewhere else.

Have you no shame cyclowizard. That post was not a troll. You simply don't have a response to it. Just fess up.

LOL. Like I told you via PM, you can't convince a troll that they are a troll.
I'll keep trying. You have a PM Mill;)
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Mill

Okay, so since you are supporting the idea that Anne is a troll, would you care to explain to me over PM why he/she is a troll? PM me if you'd like to.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall

Or anti-religious indoctrination.

What kind of anti-religious indoctrination are you talking about?

Those who reject the Bible without ever reading it.
I read that crap. I use to have to go to Sunday school and learn about "Jesus Hallelujah" when I was young.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
The Bible was written by mankind. Jesus was a man. Jesus was not God, or the son of God. You have all been duped by a 2000 year old myth.
:cookie:

I can only assume that you're as right about this as you were about the elections. Go take your drama-queen act somewhere else.

Have you no shame cyclowizard. That post was not a troll. You simply don't have a response to it. Just fess up.

LOL. Like I told you via PM, you can't convince a troll that they are a troll.
I'll keep trying. You have a PM Mill;)

LOL, not bad RD, not bad.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Mill

Okay, so since you are supporting the idea that Anne is a troll, would you care to explain to me over PM why he/she is a troll? PM me if you'd like to.

Never called him a troll. I said his post was one. Now, you on the other hand. I better not comment.
 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall

Or anti-religious indoctrination.

What kind of anti-religious indoctrination are you talking about?

Those who reject the Bible without ever reading it.
I read that crap. I use to have to go to Sunday school and learn about "Jesus Hallelujah" when I was young.

When you have free time, read the Bible without any pretense of emotion or goal of purpose. Since you already seem to be familiar with the Gospel, a sequential reading from beginning to end might be beneficial. Send me a PM when you're done. :p
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall

Or anti-religious indoctrination.

What kind of anti-religious indoctrination are you talking about?

Those who reject the Bible without ever reading it.
I read that crap. I use to have to go to Sunday school and learn about "Jesus Hallelujah" when I was young.

Aww, I bet that you were cute in Sunday School Red. You mean to tell me you don't still remember John 3:16. For God so loved RD... :D