Discussion How many illegals do you think live in America?

[highland145]

Your statement was ludicrous. What do you expect

Righto, Chief.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Nope. That was supposed to be a 1 time deal and enforcement after that....obviously we were lied to.

Work visas and use the immigration system we already have. Give the daca kids citizenship, also a 1 time deal with a cut off date and future kids are left out.

Really, the problem is that illegal behavior should never be incentivized. If you do it once that means millions of people will see that and say "Let's get in on the next round"



My wife - who is an immigrant - had an overall good idea that I felt is the most reasonable.

No one who comes over illegally will be awarded citizenship. Ever. No entitlement to benefits either. No voting, etc..

However, if you choose you can register and receive an identification. You can function in life just like anyone else - but - you will be required to pay an additional tax on any income received. Say - 5% additional (negotiable) - in addition to other taxes. At no point will you ever be arrested/deported unless you commit a crime, you're safe to go as you please.

If you're caught and failed to register, it's immediate deportation. Do not pass go.

Ramp up legal immigration to incentivize waiting instead of cutting corners and skipping ahead. Don't reward the people who cut corners and instead reward people for playing by the book.

 

[MrSquished]

Righto, Chief.

The immigration reform in the early 80's was just that. It was an independent act of the legislative and executive branches. It's not like settting a judicial precedent. Not sure what you don't get. This is not rocket science.

It's simply inhumane to think you should deport 10 million plus people. What do you want to round 'em up into concentration camps then start bussing them out of here to random central American countries?

 

[MrSquished]

Really, the problem is that illegal behavior should never be incentivized. If you do it once that means millions of people will see that and say "Let's get in on the next round"



My wife - who is an immigrant - had an overall good idea that I felt is the most reasonable.

No one who comes over illegally will be awarded citizenship. Ever. No entitlement to benefits either. No voting, etc..

However, if you choose you can register and receive an identification. You can function in life just like anyone else - but - you will be required to pay an additional tax on any income received. Say - 5% additional (negotiable) - in addition to other taxes. At no point will you ever be arrested/deported unless you commit a crime, you're safe to go as you please.

If you're caught and failed to register, it's immediate deportation. Do not pass go.

Ramp up legal immigration to incentivize waiting instead of cutting corners and skipping ahead. Don't reward the people who cut corners and instead reward people for playing by the book.

Absolutely terrible idea. Create a class of second class permanent residents who pay into the system and can never vote nor receive benefits. That's bonkers.

 

[darkswordsman17]

If you want this to end you have to remove the incentives:

1) Require E-Verify
2) Enforce large fines like $5,000 for each unauthorized hire for first offense and $25,000 thereafter
3) Tax Remittances to countries like Mexico. Over $28-Billion a year is remitted from the US per year to Mexico which accounts for more than 2% of Mexico's GDP.

Mexico was the fourth largest receiver of remittances in the world in 2017. Remittances sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico comprised $28.5 billion in 2017 ​

4) Remove birthright (anchor baby) citizenship like every other country has done. End maternity tourism. Not one European country allows birthright citizenship.

Imagine the wage growth citizens would see if there were no illegal immigrants, Visas are fine whether it be farm work or construction or technology, but that equals being documented & paid a real wage. The wage growth would offset the reduced costs in education, healthcare, & housing.


I've attempted to cover this from a non-partisan point of view so please keep the politics out of it.

I will also note, advanced automation is removing the jobs that many consider to be needed by low skilled immigrant farm & construction-workers -

The Age of Robot Farmers

Picking strawberries takes speed, stamina, and skill. Can a robot do it?

www.newyorker.com

.

Robots Invade the Construction Site

Boosted by advances in sensors and artificial intelligence, a new generation of machines is automating a tech-averse industry.

www.wired.com

https://www.e-verify.gov/
https://www.e-verify.gov/

Immigrants are not the source of the wage stagnation, but rather they're a symptom of what is driving that. If you want to keep politics out of it (which you can't, sorry, so even acting like it is straight up stupid, its literally inherently a political issue), then you should perhaps actually do that (anchor baby and maternity tourism are blatant political talk points intent on skewing what is actually occurring). Likewise, "tax remittance" is BS as that's acting like its intentionally being sequestered elsewhere to avoid taxes. Its not taxes being remitted, as most of that money would still flow even if it were taxed (and in fact I'm pretty sure it is to some extent). And I bet that is massively dwarfed by the amount that wealthy people are remitting to bank accounts that aren't paying VASTLY higher amounts of what should be taxed but isn't or isn't properly. But not a peep about that from you (gee I wonder why...). And I guarantee you that has a FAR great impact on wage growth than illegal immigration.

You also missed one of the most important parts, which should have been the #1 thing you pushed for. Expand legal immigration. That alone would immediately improve every aspect of the things you're taking issue with.

Your inclusion about robots is...odd since you don't seem to actually present anything to deal with that (in fact, your post should be flagged for not even offering any of your own commentary about that), but it appears your post is a mismash of things you're trying to use to excuse what the actual issue is, which is income inequality. Stop letting wealthy persons and corporations get unfair advantages via tax breaks. If you want to keep the money here, then properly tax those controlling most of it, and then tax it times 10 of that if they want to send it elsewhere.

Also missing: any fucks given from you about wage theft. That definitely impacts wage growth. As does things like companies colluding and agreeing to not recruit employees, non-compete clauses, and a whole host of other things that impacts wages.

 

[ponyo]

I have so many mixed feelings on illegals, immigration, and birth rates. I think the US and the world need way higher birth rates. Low birth rate is major problem. In the US, we don't really have that problem because we have so much illegal immigration and high birth rates from illegals and the poor. But many parts of the world with low immigration suffer greatly from low birth rates and that's going to be major problem in the future.

I don't blame the illegals for crossing the border and coming over. If I was in their shoes and had no other good options, I would 100% do the same. But it's crazy how in certain trades in this country, you can't hire a company that don't use illegals. For example, 100% of the roofing companies in GA use subcontractors for all major works and don't have W2 workers other than sales people. All roofing work is subbed out. And those subs all use illegals. One or two people might have legal paper to get the sub work but the rest of the crew are probably illegals. It's systematic problem and E-verify can't do anything against that because the companies winning the job contracts are white owned and have the legal documents.

 

[Svnla]

Absolutely terrible idea. Create a class of second class permanent residents who pay into the system and can never vote nor receive benefits. That's bonkers.

And continuing to reward ILLEGALS is not bonkers and terrible? Uh huh.

I said it before and I will say it again and again. If group X has to follow immigration rules and laws, then group Y, Z, and so on has to do the same. Fairness and equality, right? Or it does not count in this situation because it does not fit into the agenda? Asking for a friend.

 

[darkswordsman17]

The immigration reform in the early 80's was just that. It was an independent act of the legislative and executive branches. It's not like settting a judicial precedent. Not sure what you don't get. This is not rocket science.

It's simply inhumane to think you should deport 10 million plus people. What do you want to round 'em up into concentration camps then start bussing them out of here to random central American countries?

He's a willful idiot from the south. Just treat him like you do slowmonesmind1 from P&N.

To give some extra frame of reference, keep in mind 2 things about that poster. He bragged about running a payday loan business, and he got enraged that a court took guns away from and mandated that a guy who raped a horse needed to have a mental health evaluation before appearing in court. He was very angry about the guns and for some incredibly fucking stupid reason, thought the judge was forcing the psychiatric evaluation because of the guns and not, you know, the guy raping a horse (perhaps because that's commonly accepted behavior in whatever horsefuckville he lives in).

 

[BoomerD]

Absolutely terrible idea. Create a class of second class permanent residents who pay into the system and can never vote nor receive benefits. That's bonkers.

They're welcome to leave...after all, they broke several laws coming here...

 

[MrSquished]

They're welcome to leave...after all, they broke several laws coming here...

Then we should retroactively suspend all the business licenses of those that willingly hired them and fine them as well. I'm sure you'd support that amirite?

 

[BoomerD]

Then we should retroactively suspend all the business licenses of those that willingly hired them and fine them as well. I'm sure you'd support that amirite?

I'm definitely fine with heavily fining any business...or person who hires them...even as day labor.

 

[darkswordsman17]

The country barely had 100 million back then....now we are close to 400 million and really don't need more.

The roads are jammed up enough.
The schools are jammed up enough.
The hospitals are jammed up enough.
The employment opportunities are jammed up enough.

PS: We can make our own babies.....MADE IN AMERICA!!!

We have plenty of space. In fact lots of rural towns are dying out because many people don't want to live there any more.

Sounds like you need better or maybe simply more, roads, schools, and hospitals. Infrastructure projects would be a great way to deal with that employment jam.

Yeah that must be why your perfect pure white officially sanctioned Americans were having less of them. Does white supremacy lead to ED or impotency?

They did...

A lot of illegals are abused...wage theft....long hours....dangerous jobs...it should be illegal to hire illegals.

Well then let's dig 'em up and boot their asses out. You of course will be tasked with that and will be going as well you freeloading anchor baby. Now get the fuck out of my country you worthless piece of shit.

 

[MrSquished]

I'm definitely fine with heavily fining any business...or person who hires them...even as day labor.

Probably should temporarily suspend their business license as well. At least several times as long as it takes to round up the illegals, put them in concentration camps, process them and get them back to their country of origin.

 

[highland145]

I see shortdickathon has shown up.

 

[Mai72]

Well uhhh... it's kind of easier to blend-in to society when... you at least have the ability to communicate in the same language as everyone else....

Not that Europeans don't have their own language of course, but they are much more probable to be immigrating with English as well.


Pretty much this.


People are hilariously being taught to demand higher wages for low skilled workers, while also mass demanding more unskilled workers be legalized and to import more.

It's pretty hilarious when you think about it - and corporations love it. They are seen as the good guys - AND they get to massively increase their supply of workers to drive down wage growth.

True. Good point. The one thing I'll say about the latinos is that their culture is very similar to American values. Many are hard working. They are family oriented, and are very religious. Many have 2-4 year degrees, and do value education. Language is the main sticking point for many Americans, and personally I don't think it's an issue. I've lived in Asia so I know how daunting it can be to learn another language. Young Latino children who immigrate to America speak English fluently in a few short years anyway. It's the older people that have difficulty and stick to their old ways. Again, my mom immigrated from France at a very young age. Her mother couldn't speak English though. It was never really an issue.

 

[sdifox]

Corporate overlords have convinced the masses that for some reason we "need" immigration - or else work magically won't get done. No one will clean up shit, no one will take our orders, blah blah blah.

It's all fictional BS peddled to idiots that allows wages to remain low for those positions. Oh no - you might have to pay someone $18/hour to clean up shit instead of depending on importing more of the uneducated class to drive down the wage-growth. What a horrible outcome!

no, it has to do with birth rate. So get busy.

 

[SKORPI0]

How many undocumented immigrants are in the United States and who are they? | Brookings

Elaine Kamarck and Christine Stenglein outline recent trends in illegal immigration to the U.S. and explain why accurately determining the size of the America’s undocumented population is so difficult.

www.brookings.edu

Estimates of the number of undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. range from 10.5 million to 12 million, or approximately 3.2%–3.6% of the population.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I’m just enjoying that this thread is a better exchange of different perspectives than any such discussion in P&N

 

[sdifox]

"Laughably small? I damned sure don't want to see the US with "India-like" population density. IMO, we're already over-populated in the metro areas around larger cities.

87 per square mile...

 

[MrSquished]

And continuing to reward ILLEGALS is not bonkers and terrible? Uh huh.

I said it before and I will say it again and again. If group X has to follow immigration rules and laws, then group Y, Z, and so on has to do the same. Fairness and equality, right? Or it does not count in this situation because it does not fit into the agenda? Asking for a friend.

Because these are human lives we are talking about and because American business is complicit in creating incentive for these folks to come here and live the 'American Dream'. America is also partially responsible in some of these Central american and Southern American countries for partially fucking them up by us getting involved in their domestic policy for decades, thus driving some people out. It's also very fucked up to take someone that has been living here and contributing in manners for years, possibly has a family, and ripping them, putting them in camps and then deporting them. I appreciate that your friend just sees these people as simply numbers, just like many businesses did, but many of us don't. I hope you aren't as terrible as your friend that you are asking for? Asking for myself.

 

[Svnla]

Because these are human lives we are talking about and because American business is complicit in creating incentive for these folks to come here and live the 'American Dream'. America is also partially responsible in some of these Central american and Southern American countries for partially fucking them up by us getting involved in their domestic policy for decades, thus driving some people out. It's also very fucked up to take someone that has been living here and contributing in manners for years, possibly has a family, and ripping them, putting them in camps and then deporting them. I appreciate that your friend just sees these people as simply numbers, just like many businesses did, but many of us don't. I hope you aren't as terrible as your friend that you are asking for? Asking for myself.

All you have in your post above are excuses after excuses. You haven't give me a straight answer about my question of should everyone follow rules/laws equally or pay the consequence. Why should anyone wait for years and years and years and spend a fortune to get here the LEGAL way while millions and millions of ILLEGALS can just sneak in/overstay their visas? How is that "fair", "equality", "justice" that you guys LOVE to preach over and over again? Are those LEGALS less than "human lives" than those ILLEGALS?

As another poster said above, feel free to punish any business or anyone that employ ILEGALS. No one is making excuse for those that are employed ILLEGALS and you shouldn't make any excuse for ILEGALS either. They broke the rules/laws to get here/stay here so now they have no one to blame but themselves for the consequences of being "ripping", putting in camps, "deporting".

One more thing, so anyone that are "living here and contributing in manners for years" can pick and choose any rule or law to follow as they please? Yes or No?

 

[MrSquished]

All you have in your post above are excuses after excuses. You haven't give me a straight answer about my question of should everyone follow rules/laws equally or pay the consequence. Why should anyone wait for years and years and years and spend a fortune to get here the LEGAL way while millions and millions of ILLEGALS can just sneak in/overstay their visas? How is that "fair", "equality", "justice" that you guys LOVE to preach over and over again? Aren't those LEGALS less than "human lives" than those ILLEGALS?

As another poster said above, feel free to punish any business or anyone that employ ILEGALS. No one is making excuse for them and you shouldn't make any excuse for ILEGALS. They broke the rules/laws to get here/stay here so now they have no one to blame but themselves for the consequences of being "ripping", putting in camps, "deporting".

One more thing, so anyone that are "living here and contributing in manners for years" can pick and choose any rule or law to follow? Yes or No?

Your one more thing is ludicrous. Just because one can have leeway when judging one infraction does not imply one thinks that should be the case for every and any rule or that there should be no rules. That is a non sequitor and a strawman. I can imagine someone arguing to you against civil rights infractions on African Americans 60 years ago, you would then reply, well what now, if we let them break those rules, then what next, they can break all the rules?

For someone that is trying to sound so logical and a by the book guy that sees people as cattle, you really should try harder to follow actual logic and reason in your arguments.

The fact you don't know that laws can be immoral and unethical is also scary.

 

[Svnla]

Your one more thing is ludicrous. Just because one can have leeway when judging one infraction does not imply one thinks that should be the case for every and any rule or that there should be no rules. That is a non sequitor and a strawman. I can imagine someone arguing to you against civil rights infractions on African Americans 60 years ago, you would then reply, well what now, if we let them break those rules, then what next, they can break all the rules?

For someone that is trying to sound so logical and a by the book guy that sees people as cattle, you really should try harder to follow actual logic and reason in your arguments.

The fact you don't know that laws can be immoral and unethical is also scary.

So tell me how current immigration rules and laws can be immoral and unethical? I have been to numerous countries around the world, from rich to poor, and in every single one of them, I have to follow their rules and laws, even immigration rules and laws. Oh no, the horror of having to follow the rules/laws or facing the consequences....so immoral and unethical, right?

See people as cattle? That's YOUR words, not mine. So don't even pretend to put your own words as mine. Don't even try.

Still waiting for you to answer my questions above. Let start again with "If group X has to follow immigration rules and laws, then group Y, Z, and so on has to do the same"...should everyone follow rules/laws equally or pay the consequence . Care to give a straight answer or more excuses/spin/put your words as mine?

 

[sandorski]

All you have in your post above are excuses after excuses. You haven't give me a straight answer about my question of should everyone follow rules/laws equally or pay the consequence. Why should anyone wait for years and years and years and spend a fortune to get here the LEGAL way while millions and millions of ILLEGALS can just sneak in/overstay their visas? How is that "fair", "equality", "justice" that you guys LOVE to preach over and over again? Are those LEGALS less than "human lives" than those ILLEGALS?

As another poster said above, feel free to punish any business or anyone that employ ILEGALS. No one is making excuse for those that are employed ILLEGALS and you shouldn't make any excuse for ILEGALS either. They broke the rules/laws to get here/stay here so now they have no one to blame but themselves for the consequences of being "ripping", putting in camps, "deporting".

One more thing, so anyone that are "living here and contributing in manners for years" can pick and choose any rule or law to follow as they please? Yes or No?

Are you sure you don't just have a lust for cruelty?

How doesn't years of Hard Work, Paying Taxes, receiving no Government Assistance, Paying Bills, being Law Biding not become "American".

 

[MrSquished]

So tell me how current immigration rules and laws can be immoral and unethical? I have been to numerous countries around the world, from rich to poor, and in every single one of them, I have to follow their rules and laws, even immigration rules and laws. Oh no, the horror of having to follow the rules/laws or facing the consequences....so immoral and unethical, right?

Still waiting for you to answer my questions above. Start with "If group X has to follow immigration rules and laws, then group Y, Z, and so on has to do the same"...should everyone follow rules/laws equally or pay the consequence . Care to give a straight answer or more excuses?

I've given you plenty of straight answers.

Please define these groups you are putting people into categories as, Who is group X, Y and Z?