Discussion How many illegals do you think live in America?

[pmv]

Depends how widespread this is

Virus discovered infecting bald eagles

Researchers recently discovered a virus infecting bald eagles across the country. The virus is a member of the hepacivirus genus, the same genus of viruses that cause hepatitis C in humans. Until recently, it was not known that this type of virus could infect a bird. Biologists discovered the new

wildlife.org

Biologists discovered the new virus as they sought the mystery cause of the fatal Wisconsin River Eagle Syndrome — which affects eagles along the river in southern Wisconsin. Scientists have known about the syndrome for about 20 years, but no one could figure out what caused it.

“The typical story is someone — a member of the public or a scientist out in the field — sees an eagle that’s stumbling, falling over, seizing, vomiting or just in really bad shape,” said Tony Goldberg, a professor at the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “The eagle isn’t starving or thin, but it looks really sick. Someone would rush it to the nearest rehab or veterinary clinic, but it would die on the way or soon after.”

I can't believe I did all that cutting-and--pasting for the sake of a terrible pun.

 

[pcgeek11]

Too fucking many...

12-15 million

This exactly.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

If you want this to end you have to remove the incentives:

1) Require E-Verify
2) Enforce large fines like $5,000 for each unauthorized hire for first offense and $25,000 thereafter
3) Tax Remittances to countries like Mexico. Over $28-Billion a year is remitted from the US per year to Mexico which accounts for more than 2% of Mexico's GDP.

Mexico was the fourth largest receiver of remittances in the world in 2017. Remittances sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico comprised $28.5 billion in 2017 ​

4) Remove birthright (anchor baby) citizenship like every other country has done. End maternity tourism. Not one European country allows birthright citizenship.

Imagine the wage growth citizens would see if there were no illegal immigrants, Visas are fine whether it be farm work or construction or technology, but that equals being documented & paid a real wage. The wage growth would offset the reduced costs in education, healthcare, & housing.


I've attempted to cover this from a non-partisan point of view so please keep the politics out of it.

I will also note, advanced automation is removing the jobs that many consider to be needed by low skilled immigrant farm & construction-workers -

The Age of Robot Farmers

Picking strawberries takes speed, stamina, and skill. Can a robot do it?

www.newyorker.com

.

Robots Invade the Construction Site

Boosted by advances in sensors and artificial intelligence, a new generation of machines is automating a tech-averse industry.

www.wired.com

https://www.e-verify.gov/
https://www.e-verify.gov/

 

[DigDog]

...it should be illegal to hire illegals.

... i think it already is.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

It's funny how we think illegals are primarily Latinos. My mom immigrated from France in the 1950s as a little girl. She never had her green papers. It was never an issue when Europeans were coming to America in droves back 100 years ago. Many of those immigrants didn't have their green papers either.

Well uhhh... it's kind of easier to blend-in to society when... you at least have the ability to communicate in the same language as everyone else....

Not that Europeans don't have their own language of course, but they are much more probable to be immigrating with English as well.

If you want this to end you have to remove the incentives:

1) Require E-Verify
2) Enforce large fines like $5,000 for each unauthorized hire for first offense and $25,000 thereafter
3) Tax Remittances to countries like Mexico. Over $28-Billion a year is remitted from the US per year to Mexico which accounts for more than 2% of Mexico's GDP.

Mexico was the fourth largest receiver of remittances in the world in 2017. Remittances sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico comprised $28.5 billion in 2017 ​

4) Remove birthright (anchor baby) citizenship like every other country has done. End maternity tourism. Not one European country allows birthright citizenship.

Imagine the wage growth citizens would see if there were no illegal immigrants, Visas are fine whether it be farm work or construction or technology, but that equals being documented & paid a real wage. The wage growth would offset the reduced costs in education, healthcare, & housing.


I've attempted to cover this from a non-partisan point of view so please keep the politics out of it.

I will also note, advanced automation is removing the jobs that many consider to be needed by low skilled immigrant farm & construction-workers -

The Age of Robot Farmers

Picking strawberries takes speed, stamina, and skill. Can a robot do it?

www.newyorker.com

.

Robots Invade the Construction Site

Boosted by advances in sensors and artificial intelligence, a new generation of machines is automating a tech-averse industry.

www.wired.com

https://www.e-verify.gov/
https://www.e-verify.gov/

Pretty much this.


People are hilariously being taught to demand higher wages for low skilled workers, while also mass demanding more unskilled workers be legalized and to import more.

It's pretty hilarious when you think about it - and corporations love it. They are seen as the good guys - AND they get to massively increase their supply of workers to drive down wage growth.

 

[K1052]

The US birth rate has been in decline for the last 30 years which is going to cause a number of big problems in the coming decades. My probably controversial position is that permanant immigration from Mexico and Central America should be expanded dramatically in a legal fashion.

 

[Muse]

The US birth rate has been in decline for the last 30 years which is going to cause a number of big problems in the coming decades. My probably controversial position is that permanant immigration from Mexico and Central America should be expanded dramatically in a legal fashion.

Where I live it doesn't matter who you are, you are a minority. I don't have the statistics, but Berkeley, CA isn't so much a melting pot as a thriving multi-racial hive in a university town, however the population has been remarkably stable for many decades. By and large, the citizenry are well educated, but there really are all types, races, languages being spoken (close to the ports of San Francisco, Oakland). There's a resistance to getting super populated. High rises there aren't. There are multi-story buildings, sure, but high rises, not. A large multi-story building under construction downtown burned a few weeks ago. I suspect it was eco-terrorism, but have heard nothing concerning determinations of the cause of the blaze.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The US birth rate has been in decline for the last 30 years which is going to cause a number of big problems in the coming decades. My probably controversial position is that permanant immigration from Mexico and Central America should be expanded dramatically in a legal fashion.

You don't want to consider that bringing in people from all of the same places -with the same education (lack thereof) might not be a so-great idea in a country of an already infinite sources of burger flippers and low-skilled retail jobs?

All the while these positions are continuously the prime pickings for automation with the likes of truck drivers, burger flippers, order-takers, retail clerks, picking fruit, etc... all in the direct scope of a near-certain demise in the next 20 years?


That and over-population of urban cities, dwindling rural populations - and no means of fixing High cost of living or traffic of urban cities?


That and the "we need to keep making babies" is really not a valid argument. We will survive just fine, it's just irrational fearmongering.

 

[K1052]

Where I live it doesn't matter who you are, you are a minority. I don't have the statistics, but Berkeley, CA isn't so much a melting pot as a thriving multi-racial hive in a university town, however the population has been remarkably stable for many decades. By and large, the citizenry are well educated, but there really are all types, races, languages being spoken (close to the ports of San Francisco, Oakland). There's a resistance to getting super populated. High rises there aren't. There are multi-story buildings, sure, but high rises, not. A large multi-story building under construction downtown burned a few weeks ago. I suspect it was eco-terrorism, but have heard nothing concerning determinations of the cause of the blaze.

It is very possibly to densify an area with 3-4 story buildings if the rules are changes appropriately. Unfortunately the arguments about height are mostly caused by local zoning rules which tend to produce taller proposals since they are about the only things that can pencil out.

 

[K1052]

You don't want to consider that bringing in people from all of the same places -with the same education (lack thereof) might not be a so-great idea in a country of an already infinite sources of burger flippers and low-skilled retail jobs?

All the while these positions are continuously the prime pickings for automation with the likes of truck drivers, burger flippers, order-takers, retail clerks, picking fruit, etc... all in the direct scope of a near-certain demise in the next 20 years?


That and over-population of urban cities, dwindling rural populations - and no means of fixing High cost of living or traffic of urban cities?


That and the "we need to keep making babies" is really not a valid argument. We will survive just fine, it's just irrational fearmongering.

What you are describing are policy failures which can and should be corrected. Housing is scant in a lot of cities because they mostly stopped building it. Transit it lacking because we generally suck at building things compared to Europe and Asia plus have let consultants/contractors run those efforts and soak us. Etc. As far as "low skilled" goes I'd offer trade training to anybody breathing in this country totally free of charge.

And yes demographically we're going to be in trouble as we end up with a big glut of old people and ever fewer young people to take care of them and generate revenue to pay for what's needed.

 

[sdifox]

The country barely had 100 million back then....now we are close to 400 million and really don't need more.

The roads are jammed up enough.
The schools are jammed up enough.
The hospitals are jammed up enough.
The employment opportunities are jammed up enough.

PS: We can make our own babies.....MADE IN AMERICA!!!

331M is a laughably small population for a country the size of USA. Start taxing properly and you also can get the infrastructure you want.

Truth is you enjoy the fruit of their labour but don't want to even acknowledge their contribution.

 

[pmv]

The country barely had 100 million back then....now we are close to 400 million and really don't need more.

The roads are jammed up enough.
The schools are jammed up enough.
The hospitals are jammed up enough.
The employment opportunities are jammed up enough.

PS: We can make our own babies.....MADE IN AMERICA!!!

Not really - the US has remarkably-low population density. It's practically empty. What the US needs more than anything else is more people.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

331M is a laughably small population for a country the size of USA. Start taxing properly and you also can get the infrastructure you want.

Truth is you enjoy the fruit of their labour but don't want to even acknowledge their contribution.

Corporate overlords have convinced the masses that for some reason we "need" immigration - or else work magically won't get done. No one will clean up shit, no one will take our orders, blah blah blah.

It's all fictional BS peddled to idiots that allows wages to remain low for those positions. Oh no - you might have to pay someone $18/hour to clean up shit instead of depending on importing more of the uneducated class to drive down the wage-growth. What a horrible outcome!

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Not really - the US has remarkably-low population density. It's practically empty. What the US needs more than anything else is more people.

We (and really a lot of other countries) need more cities. This constant build-up of urban areas as the big cities grow bigger and bigger and smaller ones disappear just means high population density in smaller areas.

 

[pmv]

Corporate overlords have convinced the masses that for some reason we "need" immigration - or else work magically won't get done. No one will clean up shit, no one will take our orders, blah blah blah.

It's all fictional BS peddled to idiots that allows wages to remain low for those positions. Oh no - you might have to pay someone $18/hour to clean up shit instead of depending on importing more of the uneducated class to drive down the wage-growth. What a horrible outcome!

Low-population density places produce a bad culture and terrible politics. Most of the US's problems are a result of having too few people.

What I would agree is bad is churn - constant coming-and-going and the consequent instability. You don't want 'guest workers'. You can't build a community or a culture on shifting-sands. Main thing is to let people in but don't let them out again. If you migrate somewhere it should be for keeps, with a commitment for the long-term (as with those who risked uprooting themselves and sailing across the ocean to the US in the first place), not just shopping-around for the best deal at any given moment.

 

[MrSquished]

You have to find a path to citizenship for those here, like Reagan did with amnesty, get them in the system, and drive wages up. Deporting 15 million people shouldn't be an option. Keeping them in limbo shouldn't be either.

 

[BoomerD]

331M is a laughably small population for a country the size of USA. Start taxing properly and you also can get the infrastructure you want.

Truth is you enjoy the fruit of their labour but don't want to even acknowledge their contribution.

"Laughably small? I damned sure don't want to see the US with "India-like" population density. IMO, we're already over-populated in the metro areas around larger cities.

 

[Svnla]

Growing jobs of the future are in high tech, biometric, robotics, automation, etc....NOT in ground keeping, house cleaning, agriculture, manual labor.

 

[brianmanahan]

if it walks like a P&N thread

and it talks like a P&N thread

it must be a P&N thread

 

[highland145]

You have to find a path to citizenship for those here, like Reagan did with amnesty, get them in the system, and drive wages up. Deporting 15 million people shouldn't be an option. Keeping them in limbo shouldn't be either.

Nope. That was supposed to be a 1 time deal and enforcement after that....obviously we were lied to.

Work visas and use the immigration system we already have. Give the daca kids citizenship, also a 1 time deal with a cut off date and future kids are left out.

 

[kt]

Well uhhh... it's kind of easier to blend-in to society when... you at least have the ability to communicate in the same language as everyone else....

Not that Europeans don't have their own language of course, but they are much more probable to be immigrating with English as well.

That's an ignorant and dumb assumption. Almost at the same level as Americans that thinks talking louder in English will "magically" make them more comprehensible to a person who doesn't understand English.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

That's an ignorant and dumb assumption. Almost at the same level as Americans that thinks talking louder in English will "magically" make them more comprehensible to a person who doesn't understand English.

You think it's a dumb assumption to understand that having the communication language that the majority of the population speaks can immensely help you when it comes to relationships, career progression, what you can accomplish, how you learn things?

Okay buddy, whatever you want to tell yourself at night.

 

[MrSquished]

Nope. That was supposed to be a 1 time deal and enforcement after that....obviously we were lied to.

Work visas and use the immigration system we already have. Give the daca kids citizenship, also a 1 time deal with a cut off date and future kids are left out.

That was a one time deal for all eternity. That's fucking funny

 

[highland145]

That was a one time deal for all eternity. That's fucking funny

Excellent reply.

 

[MrSquished]

Excellent reply.

Your statement was ludicrous. What do you expect