akugami
Diamond Member
- Feb 14, 2005
- 6,210
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I am not an audiophile. I am a normal user. For the normal user, the Apple IPOD (and most of the respectable companies selling MP3 players) have adequate sound. I wish the IPOD had a user customizable EQ but the sound coming from the IPOD is more than acceptable. That's not to say I find crap audio acceptable but the level of the sound quality on an IPOD is acceptable to me. I've listened to a few MP3 players before. Trust me, most of them don't sound much better than the IPOD, meaning it's of acceptable quality to the masses.
Most people use MP3 as their sound format of choice. It would be nice if the IPOD supported OGG and FLAC but given that Apple would rather you use AAC and their own lossless format it's understandable why it doesn't support FLAC. As for WMA, I don't like WMA and I don't like WMV either. Haven't seen MS's HD WMV format so the juries out on that.
As for biased folks saying people are sheep for buying an IPOD, it's a sleek system that has THE BEST controls and interface of any portable HD based MP3 player. daniel1113 gave a good accounting of the IPOD's strength and weakness as far as the controls is concerned. Just because we're on a tech board doesn't mean we have to devalue ease of use. If you want to be a masochis about things go compile your own version of Linux and run your programs using a command line interface which you no doubt compiled yourself. Why are you even running WindowsXP? Besides, isn't the whole point of GUI's on the modern OS for ease of use? When did ease of use mean dumb?
It also does it's job and does it well which is to play music files. The visual design is considered very good and distinctive. Everyone (except said biased folks) gives it high praise. It's ok to not like the design of the IPOD but most people do like it. So if most people are buying something they like and are being called sheep for it. So be it. I could call most people here sheep for using a PC instead of a Mac as well because most people use PC's.
The stock earbuds on the IPOD sucks though. I hate them. I have a decent pair of Sony earbuds that I use instead.
I never realized Quicktime was considered malware. Now, I know not everyone likes Quicktime but really, malware? If you want real malware look at a nice piece of software that comes installed with Windows XP. It's called Windows Messenger. Windows Messenger is 10x more annoying and 10x harder to get rid of than Quicktime. Especially since it runs in the background even though you have MSGS disabled from starting up at startup.
Battery life. The original IPODS had crappy batteries but the latest gen ones have good battery life. For travelling back and forth from work with a bit of listening in between I have more than enough battery power to last me through the day. That's about 3-4 hours of listening. I'm not sure but I think IPOD batteries are suppose to last 8 hours? Never really wore one out from full charge at one sitting. Really don't see a lot of situations where 8 hours is not enough. Maybe if you're flying from the USA to Europe or an east Asia country maybe.
The only big feature I find missing on my IPOD is AM/FM reception but if I'm in the car, I listen to it on the car radio. Come to think of it, that's about the only time I listen to the radio.
Are there things the IPOD can do better? Sure, larger screen, video playback, FM tuner, built in voice recorder rather than accessory, 24 hour continuous playback, etc, etc. You can say the same or similar with pretty much all current generation HD based audio players though. On the flip side, there is no HD based audio player with the support that the IPOD has from 3rd party makers of accessories. If you can think it up, it's probably available for the IPOD. That is an area that can't be touched by any audio player now and doesn't look like it anyone else will catch up soon.
Most people use MP3 as their sound format of choice. It would be nice if the IPOD supported OGG and FLAC but given that Apple would rather you use AAC and their own lossless format it's understandable why it doesn't support FLAC. As for WMA, I don't like WMA and I don't like WMV either. Haven't seen MS's HD WMV format so the juries out on that.
As for biased folks saying people are sheep for buying an IPOD, it's a sleek system that has THE BEST controls and interface of any portable HD based MP3 player. daniel1113 gave a good accounting of the IPOD's strength and weakness as far as the controls is concerned. Just because we're on a tech board doesn't mean we have to devalue ease of use. If you want to be a masochis about things go compile your own version of Linux and run your programs using a command line interface which you no doubt compiled yourself. Why are you even running WindowsXP? Besides, isn't the whole point of GUI's on the modern OS for ease of use? When did ease of use mean dumb?
It also does it's job and does it well which is to play music files. The visual design is considered very good and distinctive. Everyone (except said biased folks) gives it high praise. It's ok to not like the design of the IPOD but most people do like it. So if most people are buying something they like and are being called sheep for it. So be it. I could call most people here sheep for using a PC instead of a Mac as well because most people use PC's.
The stock earbuds on the IPOD sucks though. I hate them. I have a decent pair of Sony earbuds that I use instead.
I never realized Quicktime was considered malware. Now, I know not everyone likes Quicktime but really, malware? If you want real malware look at a nice piece of software that comes installed with Windows XP. It's called Windows Messenger. Windows Messenger is 10x more annoying and 10x harder to get rid of than Quicktime. Especially since it runs in the background even though you have MSGS disabled from starting up at startup.
Battery life. The original IPODS had crappy batteries but the latest gen ones have good battery life. For travelling back and forth from work with a bit of listening in between I have more than enough battery power to last me through the day. That's about 3-4 hours of listening. I'm not sure but I think IPOD batteries are suppose to last 8 hours? Never really wore one out from full charge at one sitting. Really don't see a lot of situations where 8 hours is not enough. Maybe if you're flying from the USA to Europe or an east Asia country maybe.
The only big feature I find missing on my IPOD is AM/FM reception but if I'm in the car, I listen to it on the car radio. Come to think of it, that's about the only time I listen to the radio.
Are there things the IPOD can do better? Sure, larger screen, video playback, FM tuner, built in voice recorder rather than accessory, 24 hour continuous playback, etc, etc. You can say the same or similar with pretty much all current generation HD based audio players though. On the flip side, there is no HD based audio player with the support that the IPOD has from 3rd party makers of accessories. If you can think it up, it's probably available for the IPOD. That is an area that can't be touched by any audio player now and doesn't look like it anyone else will catch up soon.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,046
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Maybe you should actually try out the current products, and in the way they're meant to be used. If you're concerned about the bass response graph and THD stuff from years ago:Originally posted by: Gurck
:roll: Let me guess, do you use the stock headphones to determine sound quality?
At any rate, this is getting rather silly, people of the type who can't even be bothered reading before posting now are doing exactly what I've mentioned not 2-3 posts back. It's fascinating to watch the power of advertising & image in action, about as close as we can come in the real world to a magic spell.
1) It depends on the impedance of the headphones. It does better with moderate impedance headphones than very low impedance headphones.
2) It depends on the port. The dock port is 100% flat. The headphone jack depends on the impedance.
3) It depends on the model. The shuffle supposedly has improved bass clarity at loud volumes. My 6 GB mini has less distortion at the loudest volumes than the previous generation models. And it seems the low bass falloff is even less of a concern on current models.
However, I would never listen to the iPods at anywhere near those volumes (I tested it with a stereo system), because my ears would be fried. Furthermore, my impression is that with low impedance headphones, the low frequency bass volume is slightly louder at normal volumes with the current generation iPods, although it's possible it may differ unit to unit.
P.S. I'm listening with the Etymotic 4P. At normal to loud (but not insanely loud) volumes, the iPod mini sounds great.
Maybe if I used great big pro cans I'd be concerned, because then I'd have to turn up the iPod mini to max volume, driving it to distort. However, that would of course be completely pointless. iPods are portable units for listening on the plane, on the bus, and in the gym, etc., not as a reference audio component for a $40000 stereo system. And for the job it does, the iPod does it well. It has THE best interface out of any mp3/music player in existence, and for the software is excellent too.
Oh wait... If you do want to use it in a high end audio system... you could just buy a dock and use the dock port. Sounds great here too... And if you did want to use great big pro cans, you should be buying a headphone amplifier anyway. As every audiophile knows, any portable will sound better thru those types of headphones if a headphone amplifier is used. I still think it's pointless though.
Now one thing I will say that is very unimpressive about all the iPods: The included iPod earbuds do suck. They're worth about $10 IMO. Fortunately, there is a lot of choice out there of headphones that will sound great with the iPod mini.
Oyeve
Lifer
- Oct 18, 1999
- 22,047
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I do not use Itune to rip cds, I use Audiograbber with good codecs, as far as the sound quality everyone is bitching about, rip at higher quality. Most people use 128 mp3s, that will sound awful on any player, I rip at 192 min but mostly at 320. No bass? in itunes you can highlight all the song or just the songs you want and modify them with more bass or treble or whatever. itunes has an EQ that you can apply to the mp3s or whatever format you use. ipod, IMO, is the best player out there. I would be happier if it was cheaper for sure. And before you ipod haters jump down my thoat:
1. I am 38, not a kid.
2. I have had ipods before most of you probably ever heard of em. from the first Mac only 5g to the 40gb 4th gen so I have in no way been influenced by apple marketing, in fact I hate there marketing with a passion.
3. Yes, the headphones suck. Thats why I have several, frome the Bose Triports to Sony MDR-V300 to Sony MDR-EX70LP to Seinheisser PX-100 PX200 and many more inbetween.
4. I consider myself to be an audiophile, my PC alone has a highend Denon 7.1 receiver and a DAT drive and even my highend turntable is hooked up to my PC so I know what sounds like crap and what sounds like pure bliss. NO portable media player is going to be of audiophile quality as of yet. I am sure at some point there will be an audiophile quality portable player but it aint here today. You want the best portable media? Get a portable DAT player. Until then, the best player, IMO, is the ipod. Remember, you only get the quality that you put in. If you use itunes to rip your cds then you will get crap. Use another program to rip great mp3s and copy them manually. Songs need bass, mids, highs? Change em with the eq settings.
Nuff said.
1. I am 38, not a kid.
2. I have had ipods before most of you probably ever heard of em. from the first Mac only 5g to the 40gb 4th gen so I have in no way been influenced by apple marketing, in fact I hate there marketing with a passion.
3. Yes, the headphones suck. Thats why I have several, frome the Bose Triports to Sony MDR-V300 to Sony MDR-EX70LP to Seinheisser PX-100 PX200 and many more inbetween.
4. I consider myself to be an audiophile, my PC alone has a highend Denon 7.1 receiver and a DAT drive and even my highend turntable is hooked up to my PC so I know what sounds like crap and what sounds like pure bliss. NO portable media player is going to be of audiophile quality as of yet. I am sure at some point there will be an audiophile quality portable player but it aint here today. You want the best portable media? Get a portable DAT player. Until then, the best player, IMO, is the ipod. Remember, you only get the quality that you put in. If you use itunes to rip your cds then you will get crap. Use another program to rip great mp3s and copy them manually. Songs need bass, mids, highs? Change em with the eq settings.
Nuff said.
Won't respond to anyone in particular, as you're all making essentially the same argument:
- A somewhat to slightly better UI (depending on what player you compare it to) is worth as much as $200
- Lack of features and an ass-ugly player are just minor things to deal with when partaking of the privelage of paying for TV advertising
As I said, it's like some sort of magic spell they have you people under.
Actually, I will respond to one person in particular:
- A somewhat to slightly better UI (depending on what player you compare it to) is worth as much as $200
- Lack of features and an ass-ugly player are just minor things to deal with when partaking of the privelage of paying for TV advertising
As I said, it's like some sort of magic spell they have you people under.
Actually, I will respond to one person in particular:
You have some of the worst phones made and consider yourself an audiophile? :laugh:
Oyeve
Lifer
- Oct 18, 1999
- 22,047
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The headphones I listed are for the ipod, I have many more. The PX series are great, the MDR-V300 were cheap and do the job. The triports are ok but way over priced. I also own a pair of Denon AHD 750 (go ahead and say they are crap, I dare ya) and Sony MDR-V6 (the originals from late '80s) and the MDR-V700DJ. I don't use the denons or full sized sonys because the are too big for just a portable mp3 player. the PX headphones have gotten great reviews so I don't know where you are coming from on that. And I also made a typo, I have the MDR-EX70LP not the MDR-EX81LP.
Oops, notice another model typo, I have the MDR-V700DJ not the 600.
Odd, most audiophiles don't think highly of Sony phones other than the cd3ks & r series, and concede that quality or no, they're all overpriced. The triports are subject to absolute ridicule, as are all Bose products. Not surprising you like Bose & Sony, as along with Apple, they're among the worst large corporations out there. Bose and Apple are even in bed; Bose products are featured at Apple stores.
ponyo
Lifer
- Feb 14, 2002
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All those headphones are good portable headphones. I own Seinheisser PX-100 and find them excellent and compact. Not everyone enjoys carrying an headphone amp along with gigantic earmuff sized headphones when on the go.
If you think his portable phones are so horrible, why don't you recommend what you use as portable phone? I know you don't use those gigantic dorky HD280 when traveling and on the go. HD280s are ok for home but who wants to lug those things around with them?
If you think his portable phones are so horrible, why don't you recommend what you use as portable phone? I know you don't use those gigantic dorky HD280 when traveling and on the go. HD280s are ok for home but who wants to lug those things around with them?
Oyeve
Lifer
- Oct 18, 1999
- 22,047
- 877
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I agree. I use the denon AHD-750 purley for home system use, not for portable use. All of the headphones I listed have gotten great reviews for sound quality except the Bose triports. I only got them cuz they were a gift from L.A. Reid. I would never have shelled out 150 for a bose product. They sound "ok" if the medium is of high volume, otherwise they just suck for the price. Sound is subjective. Hell, sometimes I even use the buds that came with the ipod.
Mindless? I've backed up my statements. More mindless fanboyism seems more like it
You're honestly trying to call the triports portable and good?
Depends what you're looking to spend. Personally I do without music on the go, but Koss's porta-pros seem like the popular budget choice. Past that, canalphones such as Shure's e2s start at around $60. No amp required, but "lugging around" something smaller than a dap itself hardly seems like an inconvenience to me...
Oyeve
Lifer
- Oct 18, 1999
- 22,047
- 877
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I noticed in my previous posts in this thread I have listed the wrong model headphones. I have so many I lose track sometimes. Yes, we all know the triports suck for what they cost and its lameass triport technology (try covering all three ports on them and you'll hear how bad they sound ).
Actually, the best portable sound I get is from my Asus MyPal A716 Pocket PC. Combined with Mort MP3 and a 2 gig CF card it blows away the ipod, IMO, in sound quality. Plus with Mort Mp3 you have a real graphic equalizer and even sound fields like surround, echo chorus etc. I like my many ipods cuz it's got the best user interface, my 4th gen click is great as I dont have the problem I had with the 3rd gen were is you looked at the controls wrong the pads activated. I tried the new Zens and found that while they sounded good they were too bulky for my and felt cheap. I actually have an older model and found the controls horrendous. Yes, Itunes may not be the best but it blows the pants off the other products software solution. As long as you don't use itunes to rip cds it;s tolorable. This, of course, IMO.
). Actually, the best portable sound I get is from my Asus MyPal A716 Pocket PC. Combined with Mort MP3 and a 2 gig CF card it blows away the ipod, IMO, in sound quality. Plus with Mort Mp3 you have a real graphic equalizer and even sound fields like surround, echo chorus etc. I like my many ipods cuz it's got the best user interface, my 4th gen click is great as I dont have the problem I had with the 3rd gen were is you looked at the controls wrong the pads activated. I tried the new Zens and found that while they sounded good they were too bulky for my and felt cheap. I actually have an older model and found the controls horrendous. Yes, Itunes may not be the best but it blows the pants off the other products software solution. As long as you don't use itunes to rip cds it;s tolorable. This, of course, IMO.
ponyo
Lifer
- Feb 14, 2002
- 19,688
- 2,811
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Neither of those portable phones you mentioned are any better or worse than his collection. Just different. How can you say his phones are worst when your suggestions aren't any better or worse?
As for Bose Triport, it was just one of the porta phones he mentioned not the only one. Yes I think it's ripoff for the price at $150 but it's not as horrible as you make it out to be. At $150 it's ripoff. At $40-50 it wouldn't be bad choice at all. It's all relative.
You really need to get over your hatred of Apple, Sony, and Bose. Just because someone might use or like these companies products don't make them mindless sheeps. People have different experiences with products and you need to respect others experiences and opinions even if it differs from yours. Your opinion no matter how great you think it is is simply that - your opinion. Maybe if you showed the same respect to others, they'll do the same to you.
As for Bose Triport, it was just one of the porta phones he mentioned not the only one. Yes I think it's ripoff for the price at $150 but it's not as horrible as you make it out to be. At $150 it's ripoff. At $40-50 it wouldn't be bad choice at all. It's all relative.
You really need to get over your hatred of Apple, Sony, and Bose. Just because someone might use or like these companies products don't make them mindless sheeps. People have different experiences with products and you need to respect others experiences and opinions even if it differs from yours. Your opinion no matter how great you think it is is simply that - your opinion. Maybe if you showed the same respect to others, they'll do the same to you.
The phones I mentioned are better than triports. The $0.25 phones that ipods ship with are about as good as triports, and the v600s aren't much better.
So price isn't a factor for you? Do you by chance live with your parents or in a dorm on tuition they're paying?
Cute. Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong & intolerant... I can't understand fanboys' fascination with circle jerks.
daniel1113
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2003
- 6,448
- 0
- 0
I will respond to someone in particular...
I am far from an Apple loving person... in fact, the ipod is the first Apple product I have ever owned, and it took a lot of convincing for me to even purchase it. As I said before, the reason I purchased an ipod was because of the many car to ipod cables available, whereas there are none for the other mp3 players on the market (aside from a standard aux. input, but I wanted more than that).
The ipod has its weaknesses, but to say that everyone is under some sort of advertising spell is bullsh!t. Apple hasn't cornered the market solely on its advertising. It was the first, and to some extent still is, the only company that provides and easy to use portable player with a simple docking program (itunes) along with a built in online music store. Compare that to the competition, including iRiver, Rio, Creative, etc. There isn't a single other company that provides that level of integration.
As I also said before, this is also one of the weak points of the ipod if you are more than an average computer user or music consumer. The simple designs leads to a lack of customization. However, even that is beginning to change, thanks to 3rd party developers and programmers. And yet, there isn't another player on the market that has the support of the ipod, which leads to an overall lack of accessories and development.
As for the appearance, that is highly subjective, and therefore there is no use arguing about it. Sure the market seems to favor the ipod image, but you can take that however you wish.
As for the whole auiophile complaint, that is ridiculous. If you are that concerned about audio quality and sound output, then there isn't a single mp3 player that will suit your needs as of now. At least, not without hundreds of dollars worth of add-ons, such as an amp and headphones.
Now, having said that, here are a few things that Apple should really consider adding/fixing on the next ipod:
1. Add a user customizable EQ
2. Gapless playback
3. More internal processing rather than current dependance on other software (itunes) on a personal computer
Oyeve
Lifer
- Oct 18, 1999
- 22,047
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Originally posted by: Gurck
The phones I mentioned are better than triports. The $0.25 phones that ipods ship with are about as good as triports, and the v600s aren't much better.
So price isn't a factor for you? Do you by chance live with your parents or in a dorm on tuition they're paying?
Cute. Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong & intolerant... I can't understand fanboys' fascination with circle jerks.
Gurck, I mentioned I made a typo on the MDR-V600, they are the V700DJ which are much better than the 600.
If your car's HU has a line-in and DAP a line out, there's no difference in solutions, nor is it difficult - you need a wire. Real tough one... The only case in which you'd have an argument are the BMW models that integrate it so that you can control the ipod via buttons on the steering wheel. That's one I couldn't argue against and even have to admit is a pretty cool feature which promotes safety on the road as well.
What could be easier than using a file manager? Iaudios and Irivers, as well as a few smaller name players, allow this - the ipod doesn't... And it's foolish to pay full price for lossy music.
If you have to look to independant parties to use something as you want to, there's a problem. Itunes is buggy, as are the third party programs. Further, you never know if they include spyware and/or trojans. Hell, even the supported program (itunes) installs malware unconsentually.
Tell that to all the people with busted ipods whom Apple has basically told to F off... tell that to people who have to pay $100 for a new battery...
Sad to see so much FUD about sound quality
What do you people think, you spend 4 digits on audio gear and get an official audiophile card?1) like anything else, sound quality is on a scale; it's not an on/off phenomenon. The ipod is at the bottom of the barrel with some cheap players, while everything else is at various points above it. Favorites among audiophiles are the 30gb nomad jukebox and rio karma (on sound quality alone).
2) Many who're interested in sound quality will have headphones and an amp for them regardless. This isn't an ultra expensive venture; respectable headphones are as little as $60-$80 (Grado sr60s, Shure e2s, Senn 280s - and these models don't strictly require amplification) and many are plenty portable. Amps are as little as $50 or, if you don't mind a DIY job, no more than $5-$10. They don't, as other posters have actually claimed, cost $50,000 or require a car battery to power, and they're also not things to "lug around" - a common container for a popular DIY design is an Altoids tin, and they commonly use a 9v battery.
Other players offer these things and more, at a lesser expense...
Oyeve
Lifer
- Oct 18, 1999
- 22,047
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Gurck, I understand where you are coming from (to a certain point). I dont use my ipod as a solitary means of music. Its for portable use only, to get from point a to point b without being bored and to use at work to play on a stereo system there. At home I use my hi-fi system on my PC or my main hi-fi system in my wall unit. The only point you are trying to convince us of is if people use an ipod and there only means of music, then yes, its a poor choice. I dont need audiophile equipment to ride the train every morning, I do not need massive headphones with an 8 foor coil wire to get on the bus. I know of people, who only use and ipod as a means of music, and have constant discussions on the benefits of having a real sound system at home as apposed to just using the ipod or whatever device for all their music. Geez, I can go on for hours as to why my vinyl records will always sound better than any CD or other format, but thats not the issue. You are knocking down basically everything about ipods and headphones which have sold millions upon millions. Are you saying that probably over 100 million people are complete idiots and ignorant because they bought ipods and or use Bose triport headphones? Get real man and get off your high-horse.
daniel1113
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2003
- 6,448
- 0
- 0
As I said, I wanted more than just an auxillery input.
BMWs are the only cars as of now that have a dealer installed ipod integration cable; however, there are many 3rd party developers that have created similar (and better) ipod connectors that allow you to control your ipod through stereo controls, including the steering wheel controls if you have them. At the same time, these connections charge the ipod. Tell me, oh great one, where one can get a similar setup for any other portable mp3 player.
That's not the kind of support I was talking about. I meant the support of 3rd party developers that have produced hundreds of accessories for the ipod, many of which have never been created for any other portable mp3 player.
I don't even know why I'm having this discussion with you. Hate Apple/ipods all you want, but you're just being foolish if you can't see beyond the advertising argument. There are so many ways in which the ipod excels, that for most people, this makes up for the lack of other features. That may not be true for everyone, including you, but that doesn't make the ipod a bad mp3 player.
I can't believe I'm still defending Apple, of all companies, but your attitude warrants it.
Originally posted by: Gurck
Mindless? I've backed up my statements. More mindless fanboyism seems more like it
Actually I don't own a single Apple product, though from what I've seen, the iPod is a fairly nice player, albeit a bit overpriced, not my kind of player though.
I do respect their products though, the G5 PowerMac's are awesome boxes, and I'd love to have one, a G5 iMac would do nicely for my parents, and OS X is bar none the best desktop OS I've ever used.
I agree their products are overpriced, but so are BMW's, that doesn't make BMW's bad cars(except the new ones are ugly as $hit).
I see this argument a lot from ipod proponents. It's invalid because if sound quality in a DAP is unimportant to you, you can spend as little as half as much on a same-capacity non-Apple player. Television ads do not benefit you - why pay so much for them?
No, this is only the sound quality argument. It falls short in most other respects as well.
The average IQ is about 100... I'd say what I thought of far more than 100 million people, but it would derail the thread and unnecessarily offend. I will remind you that AOL enjoys market dominance in their field as well - do you feel they're a good ISP? Is AOL your ISP? Most people base purchase decisions on advertising rather than on research about what they're buying. It's easier and indicative of the aversion to learning which many people seem to have.
I called you a fanboy becuase while I made statements and backed each one up (I'm guessing you never took a debate course?), you contributed not a single thing to the argument, posting only to insult me because you don't share my opinion and were unable to counter it. Weak.Originally posted by: Sunner
Actually I don't own a single Apple product, though from what I've seen, the iPod is a fairly nice player, albeit a bit overpriced, not my kind of player though.Originally posted by: Gurck
Mindless? I've backed up my statements. More mindless fanboyism seems more like it
I do respect their products though, the G5 PowerMac's are awesome boxes, and I'd love to have one, a G5 iMac would do nicely for my parents, and OS X is bar none the best desktop OS I've ever used.
I agree their products are overpriced, but so are BMW's, that doesn't make BMW's bad cars(except the new ones are ugly as $hit).
Oyeve
Lifer
- Oct 18, 1999
- 22,047
- 877
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I bought the ipod because of its size, capacity, sound and ease of use. You can argue til you are blue in the face on how much it sucks in the sound department but like I said before, it will only sound as good as the quality of the music you put in it. Use a good ripper and the ipod sounds good. Use itunes to rip it sounds like crap. The whole Zen line, IMO, is crap. I dont care if it cost cheaper, they are made of crappy material, the interface stinks on all of the models and they are too big. The ipod has all the features I need. When I am in the mood to travel with fantastic sound I bring my portable DAT player and a bunch of DAT tapes. Anyway, i'm finished on this thread. Its time to move on.
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