How do we block people from tunneling under our new wall?

[MrPickins]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a2487/4244235/

"
High-Tech Border Patrol: 5 New Tricks to Find Smuggler Tunnels
The Department of Homeland Security says tunnels under the U.S.-Mexico border are proliferating as security is tightened aboveground. The solution? A sensor network that peers through dirt and rock. The technologies to build it are being developed with funding from the departments advanced research wing. Here are the most promising contenders."

The problem is not the technology, it's the cost.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

The problem is not the technology, it's the cost.

Some of those ways of identifying tunnels aren't very expensive and could be done by drone or aircraft. I just don't see where having an open border to our south is a good idea from any political angle.

 

[MrPickins]

Some of those ways of identifying tunnels aren't very expensive and could be done by drone or aircraft. I just don't see where having an open border to our south is a good idea from any political angle.

From the article:

GROUND PENETRATING RADAR

* What the Limits Are: This method does not work well in moist mediums like clay and rarely penetrates deeper than 40 ft. Officials say that false alarms even at shallow depths waste time and money.

You can possibly do this from the air, but the sensitivity will be greatly reduced especially along the Texas border (being a river and all).

SEISMIC WAVES

* What the Limits Are: To create real-time detectors, more powerful imaging software must be developed to filter out the waves' reactions to natural and man-made noises, such as wind and highway traffic.

This has the possibility of being the lowest cost option, I'd wager. But, the technology isn't currently there, and when it is, it will still require a large network of sensors that must be maintained.

ELECTRICAL RESISTIVITY

* What the Limits Are: A wide-ranging network would be expensive and would have to be hidden or disguised to avoid tampering.

See above.

MICROGRAVITY

* What the Limits Are: Very high precision is required. The gravity differential for smuggling tunnels can be as slight as 10 microgals--measured against the Earth's field of 100 million microgals.

You're not gonna be doing this from the air if you want any kind of precision.

COSMIC RAYS

* What the Limits Are: A large number of costly detectors, buried beneath the probable paths of illicit tunnels, would be needed. (Small detectors find few muons and therefore have low resolutions.)

LOL

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Are you seriously saying that the one area that isn't easy to use GPR is rife with illegal tunnels? It's not as if digging a tunnel underneath the Rio Grande is something done with shovels over the course of a week or 2, but keep on coming up with laughable blocks to stopping criminal immigration.

 

[MrPickins]

Are you seriously saying that the one area that isn't easy to use GPR is rife with illegal tunnels? It's not as if digging a tunnel underneath the Rio Grande is something done with shovels over the course of a week or 2, but keep on coming up with laughable blocks to stopping criminal immigration.

The fence is to be built/expanded on our side of the river. Have you not been paying attention to the discussion of how some US property owners will end up on the Mexican side?

And again, it's not likely to be deployed via aircraft. To have suitable sensitivity, you really need to be on the ground.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

yes, because technology never improves.

 

[glenn1]

The fence is to be built/expanded on our side of the river. Have you not been paying attention to the discussion of how some US property owners will end up on the Mexican side?

And again, it's not likely to be deployed via aircraft. To have suitable sensitivity, you really need to be on the ground.

The left wants a Manhattan project to create "renewable energy" where the physics doesn't exist yet, but thinks that building a wall (a technology humans have mastered since neolithic times) is somehow beyond our capability. For some reason you guys seem to have a really hard time just admitting the obvious, that you don't want immigration laws enforced period and "the wall" is just a convenient excuse.

 

[EduCat]

Have you ever seen an illegal standing on the corner begging for money?

 

[MrPickins]

yes, because technology never improves.

Of course it does, but those improvements cost both time and money. An addition we eventually reach the fundamental limits of what a specific technology can hope to accomplish.

The left wants a Manhattan project to create "renewable energy" where the physics doesn't exist yet, but thinks that building a wall (a technology humans have mastered since neolithic times) is somehow beyond our capability.

Such as? The technology for renewables have been progressing steadily (and profitably), and Texas is the largest producer of electricity from renewable sources tells me it's not just a push from the left.

For some reason you guys seem to have a really hard time just admitting the obvious, that you don't want immigration laws enforced period and "the wall" is just a convenient excuse.

Don't try to speak for me. I'm simply arguing cost/benefit here.

I'm all for enforcing the laws, but the money would be much better spent in other ways, like going after business owners hiring illegal immigrants. This wall will be a boondoggle.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

I also support going after businesses that hire criminal aliens.

 

[werepossum]

Have you ever seen an illegal standing on the corner begging for money?

I'm in favor of enforcing the law, but in my experience illegal aliens looking for work actually want work, not a handout. Pull up in a pickup and say "get in" and they'll actually get in, not curse you and demand that you give them money like "everyone else".

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

yes, because technology never improves.

Both you and Glenn purposely avoid the largest cost of the wall andf the point of the thread. Regardless of the high cost of constructing the wall, not to mention, the high cost of technology needed to help prevent/locate those who attempt to circumvent it, the biggest ticket item is the troops needed to respond to those attempts. Unless you are advocating using deadly force, the cost of the troops, wall and, technology would easily equal the amount of money you believe illegals are costing us. The wall is a failure as an intellectual exercise let alone the massive costs it would incur should it actually be built.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Both you and Glenn purposely avoid the largest cost of the wall andf the point of the thread. Regardless of the high cost of constructing the wall, not to mention, the high cost of technology needed to help prevent/locate those who attempt to circumvent it, the biggest ticket item is the troops needed to respond to those attempts. Unless you are advocating using deadly force, the cost of the troops, wall and, technology would easily equal the amount of money you believe illegals are costing us. The wall is a failure as an intellectual exercise let alone the massive costs it would incur should it actually be built.

I have advocated using deadly force to prevent incursions over/under/through the wall and have no problem doing so.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I have advocated using deadly force to prevent incursions over/under/through the wall and have no problem doing so.

Then you are foolishly advocating a war with Mexico. Given the number of first generation hispanics who are legal residents of the USA, are you also advocating internment camps for those citizens? If you're fine with that, I hope you're an early victim of the civil war soon to follow.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I have advocated using deadly force to prevent incursions over/under/through the wall and have no problem doing so.

And that's why you must not be of voting age. Time to do your homework b/c you're not very bright.

 

[Jhhnn]

The left wants a Manhattan project to create "renewable energy" where the physics doesn't exist yet, but thinks that building a wall (a technology humans have mastered since neolithic times) is somehow beyond our capability. For some reason you guys seem to have a really hard time just admitting the obvious, that you don't want immigration laws enforced period and "the wall" is just a convenient excuse.

The physics exist for wind, solar, geothermal & hydro power to become a big part of power generation. It's obviously technologically if not socially possible to build a wall. That doesn't mean it can really happen or that it would change illegal immigration enough to matter.

The truth is that ~2/3 of all illegals in this country have been here over 10 years. Other than not having the right paperwork, they've shown themselves to be decent, honest & hardworking people worthy of being part of this great country. They're an asset, not a liability. If we want to reduce further immigration of the same sort that's fine but these are good people worthy of our respect as are their American citizen children.

If Ronald Reagan could summon up the common sense & decency to deal with the issue constructively then modern Repubs should be able to do the same thing.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Are you seriously saying that the one area that isn't easy to use GPR is rife with illegal tunnels? It's not as if digging a tunnel underneath the Rio Grande is something done with shovels over the course of a week or 2, but keep on coming up with laughable blocks to stopping criminal immigration.

you're never going to answer my question, are you?
are you ok with gunning down men, women, children who cross the border illegally. You've hinted at it, even somewhat subtly said it, but here's a chance for a yes/no. Are you good with killing, either by bullets or by mines or whatever, men, women and/or children who cross the border illegally?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I have advocated using deadly force to prevent incursions over/under/through the wall and have no problem doing so.

holy fvck I stand corrected. So you're on the border patrol, you see an 8 year old kid, well somewhere around 8 years old, but definitely pre-pubescent, crossing the border illegally, you'd shoot him/her down? you are one sick, sad fvck you know that?
seek help, I hope law enforcement is paying attention to these kinds of passive threats.

 

[werepossum]

Okay, now I see how to make everyone happy. We build a huge wall. And we cover it with solar panels.

 

[Capt Caveman]

holy fvck I stand corrected. So you're on the border patrol, you see an 8 year old kid, well somewhere around 8 years old, but definitely pre-pubescent, crossing the border illegally, you'd shoot him/her down? you are one sick, sad fvck you know that?
seek help, I hope law enforcement is paying attention to these kinds of passive threats.

He's got to be a teenager. I'm sure he'll also suggest the gunning down of Canadians that have crossed the border and overstayed their visit b/c technically they're criminal illegal aliens.

 

[EduCat]

I'm in favor of enforcing the law, but in my experience illegal aliens looking for work actually want work, not a handout. Pull up in a pickup and say "get in" and they'll actually get in, not curse you and demand that you give them money like "everyone else".

Yea that has been my experience as well. Most of them already have jobs though. Just a bit ironic to me as we discuss this lol.

Would those begging on the corner take the place of the undocumented worker? No way Jose.

 

[MongGrel]

I think we're looking at this thing the wrong way. The wall is not to keep people out, it's to keep people in. Another couple of months, and we won't have any issues with people trying to get in.

Give it a couple years, there might be satellites in space that can just incinerate anyone crossing any zone.

 

[Humpy]

Okay, now I see how to make everyone happy. We build a huge wall. And we cover it with solar panels.

And include wildlife crossings every mile or so.

 

[werepossum]

And include wildlife crossings every mile or so.

Well . . . all right. As long as they are American animals!

Or, you know, solar animals, I suppose. Or at least green.

 

[WackyDan]

Tunnels already exist today where drugs are brought over. The wall will do nothing especially since there are things called ladders.

Except Razor wire...

One more thing too. Nobody should take the wall literally. The left seems to think that every one else thinks the wall is some magical boundary. The right seems to think the wall is a matter of fact solution to a problem.

The reality is between both. No, we aren't going to build 1800 miles of wall. A few hundred more miles? Sure. The wall built at the border between San Diego and Mexico has indeed been effective. It allows the border patrol to focus resources and there was a significant reduction in crossings in that region. Walls create a barrier that slows them down and a barrier that is more effectively patrolled than open terrain.

In other words, they work in combination with human resources and technology... And yeah, we should probably build some more walls to make the flood of drugs and illegals minimal... as well hamper the flow of human trafficing which the anti-wall people never consider.