How did the right get it so wrong? CA booming instead of dooming!

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,835
2,039
126
Hasnt CA always had one of the top economies in the world?
Not according to some on this forum...apparently it's like a 3rd world country...so they say :D
Seriously though, Cali has some problems (some caused by being such a hot economy) but I'm sure lots of people would rather live there than in certain other "low unemployment" states.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leeea
Dec 10, 2005
23,662
6,436
136
Worse than that, you actively ban the construction of places for them to live.

It’s funny to me how people in California constantly complain about how expensive it is to live there but don’t spend any time considering if their favored policies contribute to that.
Because at the local level, it's conservative self-interest that dominates, and there is this strain of progressivism that continues to fall for the trope that development drives gentrification when it's really the opposite (and also largely driven by lack of supply).
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,461
31,835
136
Because at the local level, it's conservative self-interest that dominates, and there is this strain of progressivism that continues to fall for the trope that development drives gentrification when it's really the opposite (and also largely driven by lack of supply).

This was quite stark in SF when I lived there. Conservative NIMBYs and radical leftists making common cause to prevent housing from getting built.

Also a part of the world where somebody will explain to you at length why a 6 floor apartment building across the street from 15, 9, and 7 floor 1920s Art Deco apartment towers is "out of context with the neighborhood".
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,114
46,666
136
This was quite stark in SF when I lived there. Conservative NIMBYs and radical leftists making common cause to prevent housing from getting built.

Also a part of the world where somebody will explain to you at length why a 6 floor apartment building across the street from 15, 9, and 7 floor 1920s Art Deco apartment towers is "out of context with the neighborhood".
I like how they think apartment buildings ruin the character of their neighborhood but mass homelessness doesn’t.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,461
31,835
136
I like how they think apartment buildings ruin the character of their neighborhood but mass homelessness doesn’t.

They simply assert that it is their god given right to freeze an entire neighborhood in amber at the moment of their arrival no matter the consequences. Even though they won't explicitly put it that way because it makes them look like shitty people. They also do hate the homeless and wish they'd disappear.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,905
223
106
$1.5M of revenue per employee per quarter at the listed companies? So $500k / mo. What do the employees actually see of that? 1%/2% if they are lucky? This seems exploitative if employees can generate that sort of revenue but only see low digit %'s outside of a few outliers.
Forgive me if I missed something obvious. What was this in reference to? I'm curious.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
20,506
19,068
136
Because at the local level, it's conservative self-interest that dominates, and there is this strain of progressivism that continues to fall for the trope that development drives gentrification when it's really the opposite (and also largely driven by lack of supply).

Indeed both sides are NIMBY's.

But I can tell you that development can definitely drive gentrification. I have watched it happen in parts of NJ near NYC where they have been dropping buildings down as fast as possible, adding thousands and thousands of new units in a dense manner, and rents have only climbed, and there has been virtually no affordable housing put up in the same time period.

You can't just change the zoning, you have to incentivize and mandate a chunk of the development is affordable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo
Dec 10, 2005
23,662
6,436
136
Indeed both sides are NIMBY's.

But I can tell you that development can definitely drive gentrification. I have watched it happen in parts of NJ near NYC where they have been dropping buildings down as fast as possible, adding thousands and thousands of new units in a dense manner, and rents have only climbed, and there has been virtually no affordable housing put up in the same time period.
That's only happened because there is such a deficit of housing. People of means are always going to be able to outbid people of lesser means. They can just as easily buy a shit place, gut it, and live there, as they could just buy into a new place.

You can't just change the zoning, you have to incentivize and mandate a chunk of the development is affordable.
I agree that there should be some mandate for affordability, but it should be a built-in mechanism in zoning, not this useless, corrupt political horse trading variance nonsense we currently have.

But all in all, we need dramatically more housing, especially in neighborhoods people want to live in. Permafreezing development in one neighborhood just pushes it onto other people.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,114
46,666
136
Indeed both sides are NIMBY's.

But I can tell you that development can definitely drive gentrification. I have watched it happen in parts of NJ near NYC where they have been dropping buildings down as fast as possible, adding thousands and thousands of new units in a dense manner, and rents have only climbed, and there has been virtually no affordable housing put up in the same time period.

You can't just change the zoning, you have to incentivize and mandate a chunk of the development is affordable.
I think we need to get past the idea that poor people are often going to be living in new housing. New housing will generally be luxury housing and the rents in new construction will be higher than the rents in older buildings. So sure, rich people move into the new houses but that means they are moving out of wherever they lived before, which creates new vacancies. Get enough vacancies and the rents drop, just like we saw in Manhattan during the pandemic.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,905
223
106
I agree that there should be some mandate for affordability, but it should be a built-in mechanism in zoning, not this useless, corrupt political horse trading variance nonsense we currently have.
Honestly there already is a mechanism called free market forces.

Keep foreign investors out of hot markets and there would be fewer market pressures,
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,776
146
Honestly there already is a mechanism called free market forces.

Keep foreign investors out of hot markets and there would be fewer market pressures,

The market has demanded cheaper housing.

It is only through the power of government and their respective regulations that are able to prevent the free market from meeting that demand.

It's a bottling effect - you make the legal and regulatory implications too high - and you're left with a filter of very few things that can come out of it.
 
Dec 10, 2005
23,662
6,436
136
Honestly there already is a mechanism called free market forces.

Keep foreign investors out of hot markets and there would be fewer market pressures,
Foreign investors are the least of the problems for so-called hot markets. The primary focus should be on building substantially more housing of appropriate density.
 
  • Like
Reactions: K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,461
31,835
136
Indeed both sides are NIMBY's.

But I can tell you that development can definitely drive gentrification. I have watched it happen in parts of NJ near NYC where they have been dropping buildings down as fast as possible, adding thousands and thousands of new units in a dense manner, and rents have only climbed, and there has been virtually no affordable housing put up in the same time period.

You can't just change the zoning, you have to incentivize and mandate a chunk of the development is affordable.

I'm not necessarily opposed to requiring inclusionary zoning at a modest percentage (10-15%?) but the chief problem is that NYC just doesn't build much housing at all and has not for some time.

Anecdotally it might seem like construction is everywhere but even that falls far far short of keeping pace with the metro's employment growth.



Screen Shot 2021-06-17 at 1.53.47 PM.png
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,514
2,453
136
Forgive me if I missed something obvious. What was this in reference to? I'm curious.

Quarterly revenue per employee of the publicly-traded companies based in the state climbed to an all-time high of $1.5 million in May

This is saying that for publicly traded companies each employee generates $500k/mo revenue. For someone earning $120k/yr that is $10k/mo which is 2% of revenue. Many people do not earn close to $120k/yr and relatively few earn more.

It seems exceedingly lopsided for an employee get such a small % of that revenue.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,204
4,988
136
Things that happen when you encourage massive employment growth and don't plan basically at all for the humans who will work those jobs to have somewhere to live.
The problem with building more homes is having roads to drive on, water to drink, electricity that isn't shut off when it's windy, and sewage treatment to deal with all those turds.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,461
31,835
136
The problem with building more homes is having roads to drive on, water to drink, electricity that isn't shut off when it's windy, and sewage treatment to deal with all those turds.

Build dense housing around transit. There is some real shitty land use around many BART stations for starters.

Screen Shot 2021-06-17 at 4.52.28 PM.png


Screen Shot 2021-06-17 at 4.53.17 PM.png

Urban dwellers are the most efficient consumers of energy and water that exist. So you want more of them and fewer tract subdivisions in the Central Valley.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brainonska511
Dec 10, 2005
23,662
6,436
136
Build dense housing around transit. There is some real shitty land use around many BART stations for starters.

View attachment 45896


View attachment 45897

Urban dwellers are the most efficient consumers of energy and water that exist. So you want more of them and fewer tract subdivisions in the Central Valley.
I'll try to dig it up, but multifamily homes use far less energy than SFHs. And denser communities mean you don't have to have as much driving to get around and do stuff. Modest density can pay dividends to the community and society at large.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,461
31,835
136
I'll try to dig it up, but multifamily homes use far less energy than SFHs. And denser communities mean you don't have to have as much driving to get around and do stuff. Modest density can pay dividends to the community and society at large.

I've seen carbon intensity maps before that basically make this point too. Forgot where.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,410
8,338
126
They simply assert that it is their god given right to freeze an entire neighborhood in amber at the moment of their arrival no matter the consequences. Even though they won't explicitly put it that way because it makes them look like shitty people. They also do hate the homeless and wish they'd disappear.
reminds me of austin.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,204
4,988
136
I'll try to dig it up, but multifamily homes use far less energy than SFHs. And denser communities mean you don't have to have as much driving to get around and do stuff. Modest density can pay dividends to the community and society at large.
Indeed, but who wants to live in high density areas? It sucks. Lots of people want a home in the burbs because it's a nice way to live. Apartments are for people that can't afford a home.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,461
31,835
136
reminds me of austin.

I live in such an Austin neighborhood and yeah. It is much worse on the coasts though where those neighborhoods are larger, more established, wealthier, and more politically influential
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,461
31,835
136
Indeed, but who wants to live in high density areas? It sucks. Lots of people want a home in the burbs because it's a nice way to live. Apartments are for people that can't afford a home.

woof
 

Amol S.

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2015
2,341
684
136
In regards to the original poster's post, did you know Pennsylvania's population is growing? The majority of people who are leaving Pennsylvania are from around the Pittsburgh area. Ironically the very conservative county Lancaster, is still growing, and in the 2020 election Biden became the first Democrat candidate to get more than 100,000 votes in the county.