How come most Americans are poor?

[Mill]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: Mill
No one in the US lives in true poverty. Our definition of poverty is extremely skewed. That being said, anyone that lives in it by our definition typically has their own self to blame.

Notable exceptions:

Children (that they are a child, not that they had one)
Mental Illness
Physical Handicap/Illness

For everyone else there is zero reason they should be doing bad in life.

We need people doing menial jobs... so what you are saying makes no sense. It's impossible for everyone to be middle class.

Uh... it makes complete sense. Where did I ever say that we should do something from preventing people from being lazy? Never. With the amount of lazy people, there are plenty of those in the lower class that are NOT Children, have a mental illness, or handicapped or sick in some way.

Read my post again. Apparently you did not understand it.

Of course we have to have a middle class. Naturally, most lazy folks sink to that level.

 

[malG]

Originally posted by: aswedc
One, had a kid. Without being able to support it and now has no time for college. Um, maybe you shouldn't have had a kid?

On the contrary, having a kid in Australia is like hitting the jackpot

You'll get the $4000 baby bonus then you can claim the following:
1. Family Tax Benefit Part A
2. Family Tax Benefit Part B
3. Parenting Payment
4. Immunisation Allowance
5. Rent Assistance

You'll get almost $1000 a fortnight till the child turn 16!

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven
Most Americans are "poor" because they insist on living beyond their means. They want instant gratification when it comes to expensive purchases. Buy now, pay later with interest!

I believe his question is actually more like, why dont more americans make enough to have a more extravagent lifestyle...


That my friend is because the buying power of the dollar has been weakening excessivly.

The same dollar today buy far less than it did a generation ago.

Not really....a generation ago a 19" color TV was $500. It is all relative.

Yeah, I remember my parents paid ~$1700 for our first computer, a no-frills P133, back in 1996. You can get much more for your money (in terms of what's considered current) for half that price now.

A generation ago a TV might have cost about $500, and You might get a 27" hdtv for $500 today... but with the cost of housing, food, heating, & fuel... many people simply cannot afford a $500 tv anymore.


in 1995, in rural pennsylvania a house with 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, and a 1-2 acre lot went for approx $125k, the same house today is $285k... Today for $125K, you can get a 3 bedroom house with 1.5 baths, and .33 acres.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed

Originally posted by: JS80
are you kidding me? immigrants that come here with NOTHING can shoot to the middle class within 5 years and become millionaires in 10-15 years. IN WHAT OTHER COUNTRY CAN YOU DO THAT?

Hell, can people even emigrate to YOUR COUNTRY?

You, sir, have a serious case of delusion. In order to become millionaire (as in 1mil or more) over the course of 15-20 years they would have to save at least $50,000 annually. How many white american people with college degrees do you know that have that rate of savings?

Another genius. Interest, it's an amazing thing.

Even with interest, that figure is far too unrealistic. A quick google to financial calculators shows that with 5% interest rate one would still need to save $30,000 yearly in order to become millionaire in 20 years. Take into account that basic cost of living in the US (just paying for rent/utilities) is 10K-15K and that 30K are after taxes one would need to make 60K+ in order to have that kind of savings.

Show me immigrants without college degrees that have nothing that have that kind of salary please.

Not to mention that I don't think you know much about barrier entry. It's hard coming into a country when you don't know the language too well and when nobody wants to employ you when you are some foreign stranger and don't have any kind of work experience in the US.

It is simply unrealistic to expect that "nobody" would come into this country and become a millionaire in 20 years.

It's called entrepreneurship and risk management. Who do you think owns the quiznos down the street? Some white collar American-born college grad?

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed

Originally posted by: JS80
are you kidding me? immigrants that come here with NOTHING can shoot to the middle class within 5 years and become millionaires in 10-15 years. IN WHAT OTHER COUNTRY CAN YOU DO THAT?

Hell, can people even emigrate to YOUR COUNTRY?

You, sir, have a serious case of delusion. In order to become millionaire (as in 1mil or more) over the course of 15-20 years they would have to save at least $50,000 annually. How many white american people with college degrees do you know that have that rate of savings?

Another genius. Interest, it's an amazing thing.

Even with interest, that figure is far too unrealistic. A quick google to financial calculators shows that with 5% interest rate one would still need to save $30,000 yearly in order to become millionaire in 20 years. Take into account that basic cost of living in the US (just paying for rent/utilities) is 10K-15K and that 30K are after taxes one would need to make 60K+ in order to have that kind of savings.

Show me immigrants without college degrees that have nothing that have that kind of salary please.

Not to mention that I don't think you know much about barrier entry. It's hard coming into a country when you don't know the language too well and when nobody wants to employ you when you are some foreign stranger and don't have any kind of work experience in the US.

It is simply unrealistic to expect that "nobody" would come into this country and become a millionaire in 20 years.

It's called entrepreneurship and risk management. Who do you think owns the quiznos down the street? Some white collar American-born college grad?

A typical quizno's owner is a millionaire?

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: voodoodrul
The distribution of wealth in the US should be of great concern. The rich are becoming far too rich and the poor are stuck in a cycle they can't get out of. Try being in their shoes.

You ever think that rich people are rich because they keep doing the things that made them rich in the first place? And maybe poor people are poor because they keep doing the things that made them poor?

Example 1: One of my friends comes from a divorced family and lived in a relatively poor town in Alabama. Through his own hard work he got scholarships and grants to earn a MBA. In just a few short years he has worked himself into a very nice salary and is working with another friend in the same field that he is in to start his own business. In the meantime, he's invested and saved a large sum of money and lived within his means.

Example 2: A relative of mine didn't try in school. She was doing so badly that her mother paid for a special home-schooling program where she received almost individual attention. She still did poorly and barely graduated high school. She didn't go to college. Within two weeks after getting out jail, her drug-dealing boyfriend got her pregnant. She moved in with her boyfriend...and his mom and his aunt. None of them have jobs. None of them are trying to get jobs. She hasn't tried to get a job. She eventually moved out of the boyfriend's home and back in with her mother....the same mother that gave thousands of dollars to a guy she liked...he turned around and used the money to buy a house for a different woman. Within a few weeks the guy was arrested for drug-dealing and the house was repossessed by the government....all hope of getting the money back was gone.

It's all well and good to blame Bush, hate America, and decry the selfishness of the evil rich. But at some point, you have to acknowledge that there is a certain amount of free will involved and that the decisions people make have consequences.

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: malG
I'm Australian and here we get subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and great social security. I know of many people on the dole for most of their lives. Interestingly, our taxes are quite low when compared to most G8 countries. I thought America is a rich country, how come most Americans are poor?

Where do you get your numbers from?

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: malG

Originally posted by: Queasy

What are the tax rates in Australia?

Income tax in Australia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_Australia

Again, our taxes are quite low when compared to most G8 countries and we get subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and great social security.

Your medical facilities look like ours did 50 years ago. Welcome to socialized medacine.

 

[malG]

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: malG
I'm Australian and here we get subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and great social security. I know of many people on the dole for most of their lives. Interestingly, our taxes are quite low when compared to most G8 countries. I thought America is a rich country, how come most Americans are poor?

Where do you get your numbers from?

I saw the American poor with own eyes. I've been to New York and California and I saw large numbers of homeless people sleeping on the streets. Why is this happening to the most powerful country in the world?

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: malG

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: malG
I'm Australian and here we get subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and great social security. I know of many people on the dole for most of their lives. Interestingly, our taxes are quite low when compared to most G8 countries. I thought America is a rich country, how come most Americans are poor?

Where do you get your numbers from?

I saw the American poor with own eyes. I've been to New York and California and I saw large numbers of homeless people sleeping on the streets. Why is this happening to the most powerful country in the world?

Because, as mentioned before, most of these homeless people are either mentally ill or drug/alcohol addicts. They had places to stay but those places were effectively shut down by well-meaning do-gooder politicians and activists. A small portion of them are even grifters who panhandle for money and then go to their home...there's been stories about this in Atlanta papers.

Also, California (San Francisco especially) is a magnet for the homeless because of all the handouts they get...San Fran was actually giving out money at one point attracting alot of them to downtown San Francisco.

Finally, how does the statistically few homeless you see on the street = "most Americans are poor"?

 

[voodoodrul]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: voodoodrul
The distribution of wealth in the US should be of great concern. The rich are becoming far too rich and the poor are stuck in a cycle they can't get out of. Try being in their shoes.

You ever think that rich people are rich because they keep doing the things that made them rich in the first place? And maybe poor people are poor because they keep doing the things that made them poor?

Example 1: One of my friends comes from a divorced family and lived in a relatively poor town in Alabama. Through his own hard work he got scholarships and grants to earn a MBA. In just a few short years he has worked himself into a very nice salary and is working with another friend in the same field that he is in to start his own business. In the meantime, he's invested and saved a large sum of money and lived within his means.

Example 2: A relative of mine didn't try in school. She was doing so badly that her mother paid for a special home-schooling program where she received almost individual attention. She still did poorly and barely graduated high school. She didn't go to college. Within two weeks after getting out jail, her drug-dealing boyfriend got her pregnant. She moved in with her boyfriend...and his mom and his aunt. None of them have jobs. None of them are trying to get jobs. She hasn't tried to get a job. She eventually moved out of the boyfriend's home and back in with her mother....the same mother that gave thousands of dollars to a guy she liked...he turned around and used the money to buy a house for a different woman. Within a few weeks the guy was arrested for drug-dealing and the house was repossessed by the government....all hope of getting the money back was gone.

It's all well and good to blame Bush, hate America, and decry the selfishness of the evil rich. But at some point, you have to acknowledge that there is a certain amount of free will involved and that the decisions people make have consequences.

There is a great deal of luck involved in whether a given business takes off. Your MBA friend could, for reasons completely out of his control, fall flat on his face. Was that his fault? Did he just not have the skills to survive?

People on both sides are in a cycle, I agree.. Having money lends itself to investments. Which lead to more money and more investments. The poor don't have the option to sit back on your ass and play corporate gambling (i.e. stock market).

The idea is the same with survival of the fittest. Perhaps the most well adapted, strongest genetic pool is in person A. Person B is somehow inferior. Person A gets hit by a car and dies. Person B lives and reproduces. Just because B survived didn't mean it has anything to do with that person's ability.

The problem is that the "luck" factor comes from every conceivable corner. It depends on your family, your environment, your friends, your colleagues, your education, your genetics, your ability, your drive.. You can have all the drive and ability in the world, but if the others don't line up, you fall short.

Oh well. Why am I discussing this on a forum? It won't have any impact on my life, my drive, and my ability when I wake up. Having public healthcare sure would..

And why do people always think it has to be one or the other? Public and private healthcare work just the same as public and private schools. You can have both.

 

[Flyback]

Originally posted by: voodoodrul

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: voodoodrul
You just show me where to sign up to get me out of here. Born and raised in Montana, I have no intention of living in the US any longer than I have to. The guise of "freedom" makes me sick. You aren't free. You live, work, and die for a war machine and general social indifference.

Travel the world and gain some perspective.. The US is a playground for a few of the world's elite.. But unless you are already in the elite circle, you might as well get out.

I plan to move to Ireland, Norway, Sweden, or Australia, in that order.

It's just time to quit with this thin coating of "land of the free" bullshit I hear. Asshats with American flags waving out their windows.. People talking about everyone who died for your freedom. Let me set something straight.. Those people who died for my freedom died only for the political whim of a given leader. Do you think anyone fighting in Vietnam, Korea, or Iraq, fearlessly stopped someone from taking my freedoms? No. And I'm sure they would have something to say about that.. The only one taking my freedoms is my government. Just name one of the recent wars where a dictator was ready and able to take away my freedoms and we fought for it and saved it. I dare you.. All we do is fight for washy political gains and plaster it on a t-shirt..

Screw this whole twisted system of selfishness in America. It's all about how much *I* can get. Yet in that same shortsightedness, you shoot your own foot. Instead of getting something back from your taxes, like providing for the general welfare, you feel happy under the guise that good ol' GW is fighting the bad guys for your freedom. Let me issue you a wake-up call. All those bad guys you are afraid of? That's called fear. And it's an irrational fear. Give it up.

The health of a society depends on the overall health of the people. You might take issue with the freeloaders, but you pay for it in the end when those freeloaders you held support from produce stressed out psycho children that shoot up a school.. Life is hard.. And sometimes you have some people freeloading off the system. Deal with it.

You have to take care of your people. We have socialism in our schools. We all agree education is important.. Why isn't health?

You sound like an angry teenager who just learned what socialism is in History class.

I am angry about the system. I'm 25 by the way. And I've been angry with it for many years now. I am a socialist in a lot of ways because, yes, I do actually care about other people. It's not all about what I can take.

The distribution of wealth in the US should be of great concern. The rich are becoming far too rich and the poor are stuck in a cycle they can't get out of. Try being in their shoes.

I'm not poor. I'm not rich. I do know that having no health coverage and no reasonable way to attain it means trouble for me. I work at the only stable software company for hundreds of miles. I make crap for a salary, but I get by. I know where every penny goes. I have been looking for a better job for over 8 years with no real prospects. I can't find anything that pays over $15.hr.. and most of those jobs require a master's degree. I am not kidding on that point.

So I will never own a house, never save for retirement, never get ahead. Want to know what happens if I get sick? Well, since I work my ass off and still can't pay for it, either society pays for it, or I die. Fine, piss on me and say you don't care, but the point is, you pay for it through inflated insurance rates. The cycle continues until nobody can afford insurance. Who steps in then? The government.

Remember this, because this cycle is coming to your neighborhood too. The American Dream is certainly dead here..

Check out this from Wikipedia:

The median income for a household in the city was $30,366, and the median income for a family was $42,103. Males had a median income of $30,686 versus $21,559 for females. The per capita income for the city was $17,166. About 11.7% of families and 19.7% of the population were below the poverty line, including 20.5% of those under age 18 and 9.3% of those age 65 or over. 38% of Missoula residents age 25 and older have a bachelor's or advanced college degree.

Average house prices are in the $280,000 range. That's for a cute littler fixer. Sorry, I can't afford $2000/mo. That's more than my net check.

Insurance? Well, for my employer's coverage, there is a $3,000 deductible, $6,000 family, and a premium of over $720/mo for a family. No kidding.. So you can guess I don't have the insurance.

So whatever.. When can I move?

Not to pick on you, but:

There is no reason you can't live in a society that allows rich people to thrive while still maintaining a sense of humanity. Look at some of the richest people (Gates and Buffet), they are able to give tons of money away to worthy causes. But they shouldn't have to if they decided otherwise.

If it is your prerogative to give money away, then go for it. In this world you have to look out for yourself and that isn't "evil", it's "reality". You get out what you put in.

No offense but living in Montana? You wonder why you work at a crappy software company? You're 25 and young. If you take preventive steps for your health you can avoid health insurance (though I wouldn't suggest it) for awhile until you can get on your feet.

Looking for a better job for over 8 years? Are you serious? In 8 years time you should have been able to save up at LEAST 4-6 months worth of rent so you could move somewhere else (a larger center, but not too large where you can't afford rent).

Most of my successful friends in software dev don't even have degrees. How much initiative do you have? How many open source projects do you have on sourceforge? How many contacts have you made on programming forums, IRC and otherwise? As with any field it is all about networking. Even more so in programming because of how connected everyone is using the internet. You should have learned this basic concept by the time you were 16 (it's who you know, not what you know necessarily).

Montana sucks but you're a 25 year old male. You're in the frickin prime of your life assuming you haven't got any dependents (if you impregnated anyone that was a choice). You can go in so many good directions during this period.

Lastly look at how you spend your money. I'm a programmer using largely the same hardware I've had for six years. Meanwhile you have a C2D chip with plenty of memory, a big 24" display, super fast graphics cards, another XPS rig and a laptop (I'm assuming the Gateway is a laptop). Right there you have more hardware than need be for 99% of most programming tasks. I have an immigrant friend who uses a PII 400 to lay down all his friggin code.

I'm not telling you how to spend your money, but if you take a step back you could likely have gotten a couple months worth of rent out of that hardware.

With some more savings over the past 8 years you've been looking and you could have fled your Montana place. Hindsight is always 20/20 so I won't say you made the wrong choice, but even your hardware in the sig tells me that for someone barely getting by that you could have made a wiser choice or two.

Also, have you ever considered a second job doing menial work? One of the best programmers I know once had to take a crappy programming job and to make up for difference in pay he worked weekends lifting heavy crap. It ain't pleasant but you could save up enough of a nest egg to "make a move".

A lot of time there are solutions but people don't want to admit they are where they are due to their own shortcomings or passing the blame.

Unless you have some physical ailment or must take care of disabled parents and can't leave then there is no reason you can't climb the ladder.

Network, network, network. You'd be amazed at how many programmers can get jobs from people they meet online. (This assumes you are talented and willing to put in the time to work on some projects to build a portfolio and prove yourself.)

 

[malG]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Finally, how does the statistically few homeless you see on the street = "most Americans are poor"?

I believe because the US minimum wage is pathetically low. Hence without subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and sufficient public housing, it creates a working poor class and the cycle of poverty is very hard to break.

 

[wetcat007]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

Originally posted by: Queasy
BTW, poor compared to what? Even poor Americans enjoy a standard of living much higher than the rest of the world...including Europe.

We have the best-fed poor people on the planet.

lol not sure best-fed is the right wording. Highest quantity of food being feed per person(guessing don't know it as a fact), mostly consisting of junk food? Best-fed could imply, healthy food in healthy proportions... lol

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: voodoodrul

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: voodoodrul
The distribution of wealth in the US should be of great concern. The rich are becoming far too rich and the poor are stuck in a cycle they can't get out of. Try being in their shoes.

You ever think that rich people are rich because they keep doing the things that made them rich in the first place? And maybe poor people are poor because they keep doing the things that made them poor?

Example 1: One of my friends comes from a divorced family and lived in a relatively poor town in Alabama. Through his own hard work he got scholarships and grants to earn a MBA. In just a few short years he has worked himself into a very nice salary and is working with another friend in the same field that he is in to start his own business. In the meantime, he's invested and saved a large sum of money and lived within his means.

Example 2: A relative of mine didn't try in school. She was doing so badly that her mother paid for a special home-schooling program where she received almost individual attention. She still did poorly and barely graduated high school. She didn't go to college. Within two weeks after getting out jail, her drug-dealing boyfriend got her pregnant. She moved in with her boyfriend...and his mom and his aunt. None of them have jobs. None of them are trying to get jobs. She hasn't tried to get a job. She eventually moved out of the boyfriend's home and back in with her mother....the same mother that gave thousands of dollars to a guy she liked...he turned around and used the money to buy a house for a different woman. Within a few weeks the guy was arrested for drug-dealing and the house was repossessed by the government....all hope of getting the money back was gone.

It's all well and good to blame Bush, hate America, and decry the selfishness of the evil rich. But at some point, you have to acknowledge that there is a certain amount of free will involved and that the decisions people make have consequences.

There is a great deal of luck involved in whether a given business takes off. Your MBA friend could, for reasons completely out of his control, fall flat on his face. Was that his fault? Did he just not have the skills to survive?

People on both sides are in a cycle, I agree.. Having money lends itself to investments. Which lead to more money and more investments. The poor don't have the option to sit back on your ass and play corporate gambling (i.e. stock market).

The idea is the same with survival of the fittest. Perhaps the most well adapted, strongest genetic pool is in person A. Person B is somehow inferior. Person A gets hit by a car and dies. Person B lives and reproduces. Just because B survived didn't mean it has anything to do with that person's ability.

The problem is that the "luck" factor comes from every conceivable corner. It depends on your family, your environment, your friends, your colleagues, your education, your genetics, your ability, your drive.. You can have all the drive and ability in the world, but if the others don't line up, you fall short.

Oh well. Why am I discussing this on a forum? It won't have any impact on my life, my drive, and my ability when I wake up. Having public healthcare sure would..

And why do people always think it has to be one or the other? Public and private healthcare work just the same as public and private schools. You can have both.

Completely missed the point.

Example 1 came from a poor background, a divided home. Through his own hard work and diligence he's gotten out of being poor. Should something happen to his business venture, guess what...he'll likely not be down for very long because he has the knowledge, the skills, and the personal drive.

Example 2 never tried. Has never wanted to try. As a result, she has no marketable skills and she has no knowledge of anything. She'll likely get on the public dole and stay on the public dole as a consequence of her decisions.

BTW, Medicaid is basically federally funded health insurance program for the low-income. It eats up a rather substantial portion of the federal and state budgets.

 

[her209]

.

 

[voodoodrul]

Originally posted by: Flyback
Not to pick on you, but:

There is no reason you can't live in a society that allows rich people to thrive while still maintaining a sense of humanity. Look at some of the richest people (Gates and Buffet), they are able to give tons of money away to worthy causes. But they shouldn't have to if they decided otherwise.

If it is your prerogative to give money away, then go for it. In this world you have to look out for yourself and that isn't "evil", it's "reality". You get out what you put in.

No offense but living in Montana? You wonder why you work at a crappy software company? You're 25 and young. If you take preventive steps for your health you can avoid health insurance (though I wouldn't suggest it) for awhile until you can get on your feet.

Looking for a better job for over 8 years? Are you serious? In 8 years time you should have been able to save up at LEAST 4-6 months worth of rent so you could move somewhere else (a larger center, but not too large where you can't afford rent).

Most of my successful friends in software dev don't even have degrees. How much initiative do you have? How many open source projects do you have on sourceforge? How many contacts have you made on programming forums, IRC and otherwise? As with any field it is all about networking. Even more so in programming because of how connected everyone is using the internet. You should have learned this basic concept by the time you were 16 (it's who you know, not what you know necessarily).

Montana sucks but you're a 25 year old male. You're in the frickin prime of your life assuming you haven't got any dependents (if you impregnated anyone that was a choice). You can go in so many good directions during this period.

Lastly look at how you spend your money. I'm a programmer using largely the same hardware I've had for six years. Meanwhile you have a C2D chip with plenty of memory, a big 24" display, super fast graphics cards, another XPS rig and a laptop (I'm assuming the Gateway is a laptop). Right there you have more hardware than need be for 99% of most programming tasks. I have an immigrant friend who uses a PII 400 to lay down all his friggin code.

I have all my gear paid for. I always turn older gear in and get new stuff without much extra investment. The gear isn't a problem.. I pay for it with very carefully managed finances. I know, down to the penny, where every drop goes and I do not spend money on frivolous things like cable or eating out regularly. And I'm selling the XPS and Gateway. ;o)

I can't move at the moment due to an awkward custody arrangement. Now you can say that was a choice. Yes, it was. But that doesn't write off the future.

Montana sucks, but I'm here for a while. And yes, I have been looking for a better job every day since I started working at my current employer. The problem isn't finding the jobs.. It's finding a better paying job. And you have to pull teeth to make $15.hr here.. It makes me weep.

Anyway, I get by just fine and I'm not exactly paycheck-to-paycheck, but I certainly am not saving for a house or retirement. I pay the bills and save maybe $200/mo. But I also spend almost nothing in disposable income. I don't walk around with cash in my pocket. I spend about $150/mo for groceries and that's with 3 people in the house. So I know how to make a dollar stretch.

I dunno. At this point, I don't really care to keep pushing in this IT gig. After 8 years working professionally (yes, I started when I was 17), I think it's time for a change..

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: malG
I'm Australian and here we get subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and great social security. I know of many people on the dole for most of their lives. Interestingly, our taxes are quite low when compared to most G8 countries. I thought America is a rich country, how come most Americans are poor?

United States $ 43,500 2006 est. ---> #1 in the G8
Australia $ 32,900 2006 est.

Australia is poor in comparison to the US.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: malG

Originally posted by: Queasy
Finally, how does the statistically few homeless you see on the street = "most Americans are poor"?

I believe because the US minimum wage is pathetically low. Hence without subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and sufficient public housing, it creates a working poor class and the cycle of poverty is very hard to break.

The number of people on minimum wage is tiny. Most of the people that are on minimum wage are in high school or college and working part-time first jobs. The rest are low-skilled individuals. Most don't stay at minimum wage very long.

Again, I go back to my previous examples above. You can have all the subsidised college tuition, free healthcare, and public housing in the world...but the old saying of "You can lead a horse to water..." still applies. Decisions have consequences. Most of the people that are poor in America are poor because at some point in their life, they made decisions that made them poor - didn't try in school, took up drugs, got involved in gangs, blew money gambling, got pregnant, whatever.

You can call me harsh or insensitive or whatever but I saw so many kids in college that had free rides either through scholarships, grants, or mommy & daddy that didn't apply themselves and dropped out that it isn't funny. No amount of redistribution of wealth is going to help these people. They'll just keep on doing those things that make them poor.

I see it every day now with people that I know. Those that apply themselves succeed. Those that don't...don't.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: Mill
No one in the US lives in true poverty. Our definition of poverty is extremely skewed. That being said, anyone that lives in it by our definition typically has their own self to blame.

Notable exceptions:

Children (that they are a child, not that they had one)
Mental Illness
Physical Handicap/Illness

For everyone else there is zero reason they should be doing bad in life.

We need people doing menial jobs... so what you are saying makes no sense. It's impossible for everyone to be middle class.

Uh... it makes complete sense. Where did I ever say that we should do something from preventing people from being lazy? Never. With the amount of lazy people, there are plenty of those in the lower class that are NOT Children, have a mental illness, or handicapped or sick in some way.

Read my post again. Apparently you did not understand it.

Of course we have to have a middle class. Naturally, most lazy folks sink to that level.

I can't believe that you think the lower class is lower class because they're lazy. That really blows my mind. I thought social darwinism was extinct.

My point is that if this country needs people doing menial work, it makes no sense for our society to deprive them of things like healthcare and decent living conditions.
There is no reason for a class of working poor to exist, but at the very least their basic needs should be provided for.

 

[chris7b]

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: malG

Originally posted by: Mo0o
We also give the most in terms of aid i think

Why so much aid to Israel and why not help poor Americans?

Cause Israelis are a bunch of Jews surrounded by hostile Arab countries? I think they can use all the extra help they can get.

Also, poor Americans aren't going to get any of the foreign aid funds so pointing out which countries get those funds has nothing to do with the main argument.

Also because they pretty much run the country

 

[Dritnul]

because your government spends its income on your health care etc while ours spends it "defending the world"

 

[malG]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: malG
I'm Australian and here we get subsidised college tuition, free healthcare and great social security. I know of many people on the dole for most of their lives. Interestingly, our taxes are quite low when compared to most G8 countries. I thought America is a rich country, how come most Americans are poor?

United States $ 43,500 2006 est. ---> #1 in the G8
Australia $ 32,900 2006 est.

Australia is poor in comparison to the US.

The reason behind that is because the top 1% of the super rich in USA makes more money than the rest of the country. The fact is, most Americans are low income earners, it's the opposite in Australia.

 

[Flyback]

Originally posted by: voodoodrul

Originally posted by: Flyback
Not to pick on you, but:

There is no reason you can't live in a society that allows rich people to thrive while still maintaining a sense of humanity. Look at some of the richest people (Gates and Buffet), they are able to give tons of money away to worthy causes. But they shouldn't have to if they decided otherwise.

If it is your prerogative to give money away, then go for it. In this world you have to look out for yourself and that isn't "evil", it's "reality". You get out what you put in.

No offense but living in Montana? You wonder why you work at a crappy software company? You're 25 and young. If you take preventive steps for your health you can avoid health insurance (though I wouldn't suggest it) for awhile until you can get on your feet.

Looking for a better job for over 8 years? Are you serious? In 8 years time you should have been able to save up at LEAST 4-6 months worth of rent so you could move somewhere else (a larger center, but not too large where you can't afford rent).

Most of my successful friends in software dev don't even have degrees. How much initiative do you have? How many open source projects do you have on sourceforge? How many contacts have you made on programming forums, IRC and otherwise? As with any field it is all about networking. Even more so in programming because of how connected everyone is using the internet. You should have learned this basic concept by the time you were 16 (it's who you know, not what you know necessarily).

Montana sucks but you're a 25 year old male. You're in the frickin prime of your life assuming you haven't got any dependents (if you impregnated anyone that was a choice). You can go in so many good directions during this period.

Lastly look at how you spend your money. I'm a programmer using largely the same hardware I've had for six years. Meanwhile you have a C2D chip with plenty of memory, a big 24" display, super fast graphics cards, another XPS rig and a laptop (I'm assuming the Gateway is a laptop). Right there you have more hardware than need be for 99% of most programming tasks. I have an immigrant friend who uses a PII 400 to lay down all his friggin code.

I have all my gear paid for. I always turn older gear in and get new stuff without much extra investment. The gear isn't a problem.. I pay for it with very carefully managed finances. I know, down to the penny, where every drop goes and I do not spend money on frivolous things like cable or eating out regularly. And I'm selling the XPS and Gateway. ;o)

I can't move at the moment due to an awkward custody arrangement. Now you can say that was a choice. Yes, it was. But that doesn't write off the future.

Montana sucks, but I'm here for a while. And yes, I have been looking for a better job every day since I started working at my current employer. The problem isn't finding the jobs.. It's finding a better paying job. And you have to pull teeth to make $15.hr here.. It makes me weep.

Anyway, I get by just fine and I'm not exactly paycheck-to-paycheck, but I certainly am not saving for a house or retirement. I pay the bills and save maybe $200/mo. But I also spend almost nothing in disposable income. I don't walk around with cash in my pocket. I spend about $150/mo for groceries and that's with 3 people in the house. So I know how to make a dollar stretch.

I dunno. At this point, I don't really care to keep pushing in this IT gig. After 8 years working professionally (yes, I started when I was 17), I think it's time for a change..

Child? Check
Inability to relocate (due to child or otherwise)? Check

Those are two HUGE setbacks that you have to take on in your battle to move up in the work world. Again, I'm not saying it was a bad choice -- it was YOUR choice.

I didn't want to move. I was happy living with family but due to the demands and my future I made a decision and left town with all of my life in the back of a truck.

You can still move up the ladder but it is obviously more difficult due to your choices.

In North America life isn't "fair". It isn't "fair" anywhere in the world, in fact. No one makes that assertion. Someone is always at an advantage for whatever reason, whether they had more active parents who taught them financial responsibility early on or whatever.

The thing is, while you may be at a certain level of disadvantage, there is no reason you can't climb up like everyone else can. It might take a little longer but you can still get to at -least- the point where you're a home owner with a good 6-12 months savings in the bank.

America was never about "fairness". It was about the freedom to make a move and climb the ladder like anyone else. In that you will find "fairness" because everyone is susceptible to market forces just the same. Again, it might take you a little longer but you can get in almost any position you want with enough hard work and SMART decisions that don't set you back (not to say that you made wrong ones, but a child at that age without financial or career stability was your decision nonetheless).

 

[malG]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
My point is that if this country needs people doing menial work, it makes no sense for our society to deprive them of things like healthcare and decent living conditions.
There is no reason for a class of working poor to exist, but at the very least their basic needs should be provided for.

I agree, free healthcare should be the right of every US citizen. The US is a rich country so why not free healthcare for ALL?