Hell, yeah, I'd love to get some Monster at 80% off - it looks WAY better than Home Depot stuff.
Hey y'all...what I want is some gold cables with clear coatings. I also want the coatings to have blue lights that pulse along with the music. Can anyone tell me where I can get some of those?
dr150
Diamond Member
- Sep 18, 2003
- 6,570
- 24
- 81
Bottom line for me is that cable DO make a difference.
You just have to have great enough equipment to notice the difference. Cheap Best Buy stuff usually won't notice a difference.
Best thing is to try some cables out and see if it works and whether the warranted change is worth the money.
And, as with everything else, be SENSIBLE about a cable purchase as with everything else in your system. After all, it doesn't make sense to buy cables or a cdp that cost more than your whole system.
There's nothing to lose except some s&h in order to see whether better cables bought online are to your liking. This whole experience shouldn't be taken as a chore, but as a fun hobby. Enjoy the experience!
You just have to have great enough equipment to notice the difference. Cheap Best Buy stuff usually won't notice a difference.
Best thing is to try some cables out and see if it works and whether the warranted change is worth the money.
And, as with everything else, be SENSIBLE about a cable purchase as with everything else in your system. After all, it doesn't make sense to buy cables or a cdp that cost more than your whole system.
There's nothing to lose except some s&h in order to see whether better cables bought online are to your liking. This whole experience shouldn't be taken as a chore, but as a fun hobby. Enjoy the experience!
I'm not even going to get involved with this thread. The way that the OP spelled "Audiophile" says it all.
Sal
Sal
One day all our audio equipment will be digital based with the final DAC conversion happening in the speaker itself. There are already prototypes out there for consumer level equipment, and some audiophile stuff that already does this.
Then this morinic debate can finally end.
-Chu
P.S., My opinion is cables do matter -- to a point. Once your at 99.9% oxygen free copper /w decent shielding, your done.
Then this morinic debate can finally end.
-Chu
P.S., My opinion is cables do matter -- to a point. Once your at 99.9% oxygen free copper /w decent shielding, your done.
Cables are pure snake oil and marketing.
The same imaginary improvements appear on all grades of equipment, remember this isn't sonic or electrical, its perception. Try it and see for yourself, the "great enough to hear it" is just a red herring.
The worst thing to do is just try some cables, especially non blind. Salesmen tell you to take them home and try them for 24 hrs or a weekend because it sells cables, but all you are buying is the buzz of something new, not a real change in sound.
Setting a percantage of your budget for each element of a HiFi has to be the work of a salesman. The ONLY reasonable price is the lowest price that does the job.
Nothing to lose but S&H eh? Show me a happy audiophile. The snake oil cables are a doorway to eternal dissatisfaction with music and hifi, always needing a fix from the dealer of something new and better.
The same imaginary improvements appear on all grades of equipment, remember this isn't sonic or electrical, its perception. Try it and see for yourself, the "great enough to hear it" is just a red herring.
The worst thing to do is just try some cables, especially non blind. Salesmen tell you to take them home and try them for 24 hrs or a weekend because it sells cables, but all you are buying is the buzz of something new, not a real change in sound.
Setting a percantage of your budget for each element of a HiFi has to be the work of a salesman. The ONLY reasonable price is the lowest price that does the job.
Nothing to lose but S&H eh? Show me a happy audiophile. The snake oil cables are a doorway to eternal dissatisfaction with music and hifi, always needing a fix from the dealer of something new and better.
For me, while I know I probably can't hear/see the difference, I still wanted to get reasonably good cabling for my home theater system. The thing I decided to do was just make my own. It's really easy if you have the right tools (though they aren't exactly cheap). I decided to go with Canare components, which is one of the options sold on the website in the OP and by bluejeanscable.com for example.
There is really only 1 specialized tools you need... a crimper (with appropriate die set). A specialized wire stripper is also very very handy. However (of course) the crimper/die set isn't cheap. And the wire stripper isn't either (though I bought it too). Anyway, once you're done with those 2 fixed costs, then it's just component pieces, which are generally about $4 per connection (very high quality) plus the cabling (~50 cents/foot for single wires).
The benefits I saw (my rationalization) is that I could make the cables EXACTLY the length I wanted to make them, reducing the clutter behind my HT system (that's what got it past my wife). Plus I've made some for friend and I'm sure I'll be moving at some point in time in the future, and I can just make new cables when I want/need to.
Anyway, I found that www.ramelectronics.net sells everything you need to make the cables, though they're not the cheapest I've seen. ramelectronics.net instructions
There is really only 1 specialized tools you need... a crimper (with appropriate die set). A specialized wire stripper is also very very handy. However (of course) the crimper/die set isn't cheap. And the wire stripper isn't either (though I bought it too). Anyway, once you're done with those 2 fixed costs, then it's just component pieces, which are generally about $4 per connection (very high quality) plus the cabling (~50 cents/foot for single wires).
The benefits I saw (my rationalization) is that I could make the cables EXACTLY the length I wanted to make them, reducing the clutter behind my HT system (that's what got it past my wife). Plus I've made some for friend and I'm sure I'll be moving at some point in time in the future, and I can just make new cables when I want/need to.
Anyway, I found that www.ramelectronics.net sells everything you need to make the cables, though they're not the cheapest I've seen. ramelectronics.net instructions
I was able to find only 1 case so far when cable did make a difference--really cheap one. The $0.99 cable (impulse purchase) hooked-up between my Apex DVD and Onkyo TX-SR600 resulted in poor audio quality. I normally use optic fiber between DVD player and TX-SR600; however, I put an analog cable this time to "backup" a cartoon for the kid. I was surprised there was such a huge difference when I switched between digital and analog inputs on receiver.
I put Fry?s $6.99 cable with gold-plated connectors and sound quality has DRASTICALLY IMPROVED. I was no longer able to tell ?analog? from ?digital? input while playing stereo CDs on DVD player. Having a bit of spare time I decided to troubleshoot the issue and I found out the cheap cable connectors had center pin oxidized on one end. The DMM showed erratic resistance in 1..10 kOhm range. On the contrary, Fry?s gold plated contacts showed about 0.7 Ohm (essentially zero offset of my DMM).
Bottom line: if the experiment is carefully designed by salesman (i.e. $1 cable with crappy connectors is compared to $200 cable with gold plated ones)?there will be a ?drastic difference?. I am now using the cheapest cables with gold plated connectors.
3 reasons I think $200 cables are snake oil for audio:
*They are not needed if you use a receiver with digital input (except for the cases when you need to make a VHS copy which is crappy by default).
* The frequency response of cheaper cables is good up to 6MHz?do you really think you?ll see any improvement from 200MHz cable if you can hear only up to .020MHz (20kHz)?
* The input impedance of most receivers is above 100kOhm. Assuming the Fry?s gold plated cable is indeed 0.7 Ohms and $200 cable is 0.0 Ohm (too optimistic, but wouldn?t you expect that from $200 cable?)?wow, that?s a whopping 0.0007% difference in a signal attenuation!
I don?t have an HDTV monitor to judge the value of high-end cables for video. I would guess the 50+MHz bandwidth of the video signal would require $20 cable from http://cables.musicianassist.com/. Will $200+ cable be necessary? I doubt it.
I put Fry?s $6.99 cable with gold-plated connectors and sound quality has DRASTICALLY IMPROVED. I was no longer able to tell ?analog? from ?digital? input while playing stereo CDs on DVD player. Having a bit of spare time I decided to troubleshoot the issue and I found out the cheap cable connectors had center pin oxidized on one end. The DMM showed erratic resistance in 1..10 kOhm range. On the contrary, Fry?s gold plated contacts showed about 0.7 Ohm (essentially zero offset of my DMM).
Bottom line: if the experiment is carefully designed by salesman (i.e. $1 cable with crappy connectors is compared to $200 cable with gold plated ones)?there will be a ?drastic difference?. I am now using the cheapest cables with gold plated connectors.
3 reasons I think $200 cables are snake oil for audio:
*They are not needed if you use a receiver with digital input (except for the cases when you need to make a VHS copy which is crappy by default).
* The frequency response of cheaper cables is good up to 6MHz?do you really think you?ll see any improvement from 200MHz cable if you can hear only up to .020MHz (20kHz)?
* The input impedance of most receivers is above 100kOhm. Assuming the Fry?s gold plated cable is indeed 0.7 Ohms and $200 cable is 0.0 Ohm (too optimistic, but wouldn?t you expect that from $200 cable?)?wow, that?s a whopping 0.0007% difference in a signal attenuation!
I don?t have an HDTV monitor to judge the value of high-end cables for video. I would guess the 50+MHz bandwidth of the video signal would require $20 cable from http://cables.musicianassist.com/. Will $200+ cable be necessary? I doubt it.
ericlp
Diamond Member
- Dec 24, 2000
- 6,134
- 223
- 106
2 words parts express...
As long as you have some decent cables.. I would not go get my cables at Home Depot. Tho, these are as good if not better then Monster...
It amazes me on how some people will tell you how good the wire they pay 2-300 for is when you open up the back of the speaker just to find it is the must ugly wire job ever. You will be better off using parts express wire and ripping out the wire in your speaker boxes and replacing it with this as well. What good is having pro wire when you box has crap wire in it?
Linker!
As long as you have some decent cables.. I would not go get my cables at Home Depot. Tho, these are as good if not better then Monster...
It amazes me on how some people will tell you how good the wire they pay 2-300 for is when you open up the back of the speaker just to find it is the must ugly wire job ever. You will be better off using parts express wire and ripping out the wire in your speaker boxes and replacing it with this as well. What good is having pro wire when you box has crap wire in it?
Linker!
Sound Mind Audio (Fort Worth)
SHAMELESS PLUG. Hope its not against forum rules or something. Feel free to call me.
SHAMELESS PLUG.
Hope its not against forum rules or something. Feel free to call me.Wynne:
Got a question for you regarding the ProAc Tablette Reference 8 Sigs. I have the Tablette 50 sigs in Ebony and love them. I thought that ProAc really screwed up with the 2000 series and it looks like they fixed the problem by offering the Reference 8's. How do the the Reference 8 Sigs compare to my Tablette 50 Sigs?
I am going to say one thing about cable. If you can't hear it, don't buy it. I can hear a difference and it's not just imagined either.
Sal
Got a question for you regarding the ProAc Tablette Reference 8 Sigs. I have the Tablette 50 sigs in Ebony and love them. I thought that ProAc really screwed up with the 2000 series and it looks like they fixed the problem by offering the Reference 8's. How do the the Reference 8 Sigs compare to my Tablette 50 Sigs?
I am going to say one thing about cable. If you can't hear it, don't buy it. I can hear a difference and it's not just imagined either.
Sal
Ok, here's the same speaker cable 50% off: Text
Edit: RCA cable with gold-plated connectors, other cables. I would only consider the cables with gold-plated connectors (see my prev. post)
OMFG, I thought it was for the pot + knob, which maybe some nut can justify. But $480 for a piece of milled wood . . .
-Chu
Yeah, right. Read the description: "The point here is the micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate signal path and cause degradation (Bad vibrations equal bad sound). With the signature knobs micro vibrations from the C37 concept of wood, bronze and the lacquer itself compensate for the volume pots and provide (Good Vibrations) our ear/brain combination like to hear?way better sound!!
I am sure they have similar explanation why $200 audio cable is DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENT over $10 cable.
--just my $.02 (after PM, coupon and MIR)
Edit: The Ultimate Winner in Audio Snake Oil Contest
If you're majoring in physics--read on for a good laugh
They recommend a unit or two for every power and signal I/O.I agree with slacker. On top of that, there is quality and there is quality. First one is actual quality, the second one is the quality that you value the item at. There is only so much you can do with cables, that once you pass that threshold, IT DONT MATTER IF YOU HAVE a $50 (example/hypothetical) cable vs. a $1000 cable... But if you have the money to throw away to buy those "improved" cables, then power to you... or not.
Now if we were talking about speakers and amp, then that's another ballgame... but cables, I'll be happy with my $50 cables.
again, have you even tried these cables? or is it speculation? so many people here are all speculating and guessing. none have even tried or experimented with the change of cables. they DO make a difference. yes, the changes are subtle, but are noticable. We at head-fi have meets once in a while, and one of the main things people bring (because there is such a large variety of it) are cables. Yes, there are people who bring $1k+ cables, and yes, they do make a difference, but you have to have the hardware to exploit it. i personally think its insane spending a fortune on cables, but im NOT denying they improve/alter sound. im not only talking about rca interconnects, but power cables as well. In fact, one of the first upgrades made to the HD650 and HD600 headphones are replacing the cables. Numerous aftermarket cables provide a different sound with varying degrees of detail. Same for the K1000 and some other higher end cans. yes, they do matter. if you dont believe me, take a look around audio forums and view the reviews and coverage on cables.
once again, when you reach the high end, cable quality becomes subjective. speculation is ridiculous.
No, what's ridiculous is to believe that something is true despite overwhelming evidence to the country. What it boils down to is "choosing to believe" on faith-alone, and convincing yourself that a difference exists when it clearly cannot. Once again, the evidence for cables is as follows:
1) every single published BLINDED listening tests demonstrates that nobody tested could tell the difference between expensive and cheap cables
2) there is NOT A SINGLE blinded listening test that demonstrates a difference
3) NOT EVEN MANUFACTURERS dare to publish BLINDED listening tests because a) there are no differences and b) if they did find difference, it would be falsifying data. ever wonder why Monster Cable or Audioquest (with huge profts and capital) doesn't publish BLINDED experiments???
4) there is no electromechanical reason why speaker cables should sound difference - there is equivalent measured inductance, resistance, and capacitance
5) ALL of the parameters known to affect sound quality are EQUIVALENT or NEGLIGBLY different among speaker cables.
6) The ONLY evidence, and I mean the ONLY evidence that says there's a difference is NON-BLINDED BIASED listening tests...the absolute worst kind, and the most useless
Any reasonable unbiased person should be above to look at 1-6 and determine that a) there is clearly insufficient evidence to support the notion that cables make an audible difference and b) there is significant evidence to support the idea that cables make NO difference.
Valsalva
Yes, with pretty good certainty I have listened to 95% of all the audiophile cables made, and I still own the very first ones sold, Polk Cobra Cables (a braided litz speaker cable). I go to CES every year and spend a couple days talking to all the high manufacturers, I've been a members of the AES and worked for a few years as a recording engineer. I've built my own studio, speakers, reworked my Quad ESL 63 electrostats, and I am a licensed broadcast engineer with plenty of background in acoustics and physics.
I know good sound, and I am a pretty good judge of what is or isn't snakeoil.
I've had arguments with all the principals of pro and con ABX that lasted years, and from that I have a good understanding of what we can and cannot hear, plus a lot of things that CAN change the sound, and that isn't even dipping into the Vinyl vs digital debates.
There is NO SANE reason that I know of for an audio cable to cost more than $20.
HOT DEAL for audio cables, make your own and forget about paying for a advertising. Try Markertek.com for parts.
I have HD600 headphones, and the notion that Sennheiser somehow doesn't understand the engineering and wiring requirements is beyond naive.
I know good sound, and I am a pretty good judge of what is or isn't snakeoil.
I've had arguments with all the principals of pro and con ABX that lasted years, and from that I have a good understanding of what we can and cannot hear, plus a lot of things that CAN change the sound, and that isn't even dipping into the Vinyl vs digital debates.
There is NO SANE reason that I know of for an audio cable to cost more than $20.
HOT DEAL for audio cables, make your own and forget about paying for a advertising. Try Markertek.com for parts.
I have HD600 headphones, and the notion that Sennheiser somehow doesn't understand the engineering and wiring requirements is beyond naive.
Out of curiosity, what arguments do people use to justify ABX as being a bad test? I used to be a regular over at headwize (I'm not Chu Moy) and even amongst the people there who I considered way out there, I never heard anyone say an ABX is a bad test, just lots of wavering/excuses over why they don't need to or cannot do one . . .
-Chu
Thump553
Lifer
- Jun 2, 2000
- 12,746
- 2,520
- 126
Its ironic that most of the discussion above is rants for and against overpriced "audiophile" cables, when the original post was about a guy who builds top quality cables at a tiny fraction of the cost the snake oil companies charge.
If you are putting together an audio or home theater system, at least check out this guy's interconnects. They are heads and shoulders above the Monster Cable (or similar) junk Best Buy or Circuit City will sell you for the same price.
If you are putting together an audio or home theater system, at least check out this guy's interconnects. They are heads and shoulders above the Monster Cable (or similar) junk Best Buy or Circuit City will sell you for the same price.
Just my 2-cents worth:
Video cables DO make a difference in picture quality. Besides my own experience, you can see the effects of a good vs. bad cable in this excellent writeup: http://www.firingsquad.com/print_article.asp?current_section=Guides&fs_article_id=1114
Audio cables - in a home theater environment, I don't know. I certainly haven't heard much of a difference between "good" and "bad" cables. Granted, I am not comparing with $1 cables either, and the cables I buy at least look like they are well constructed.
In a car-audio environment, I can say there is a big difference, especially in shielding. My car, for example, would always feed engine whine into the stereo, until I replaced the RCAs with Monster cables that had a separate ground for the shield - that's the only way I was able to eliminate the engine noise in the car.
For most home users, a decent quality audio cable (not a $1 cable) can make a difference. But $300 cables? I doubt it.
As for the comment posted above saying that once everything goes to digital we won't have this argument any more, I only wish this were the case. I keep hearing "audiophiles" say that the digital interconnect needs to be even better than analog to preserve the signal. I even hear that optical vs. coax digital has a difference. Of course, whenever I ask for an explanation, I don't get one! The way I see it is if the receiving device can see the digital signal without having any issues, the stream is clean enough, and hence there is no need for "digital" interconnects. Anyone care to explain otherwise?
Video cables DO make a difference in picture quality. Besides my own experience, you can see the effects of a good vs. bad cable in this excellent writeup: http://www.firingsquad.com/print_article.asp?current_section=Guides&fs_article_id=1114
Audio cables - in a home theater environment, I don't know. I certainly haven't heard much of a difference between "good" and "bad" cables. Granted, I am not comparing with $1 cables either, and the cables I buy at least look like they are well constructed.
In a car-audio environment, I can say there is a big difference, especially in shielding. My car, for example, would always feed engine whine into the stereo, until I replaced the RCAs with Monster cables that had a separate ground for the shield - that's the only way I was able to eliminate the engine noise in the car.
For most home users, a decent quality audio cable (not a $1 cable) can make a difference. But $300 cables? I doubt it.
As for the comment posted above saying that once everything goes to digital we won't have this argument any more, I only wish this were the case. I keep hearing "audiophiles" say that the digital interconnect needs to be even better than analog to preserve the signal. I even hear that optical vs. coax digital has a difference. Of course, whenever I ask for an explanation, I don't get one! The way I see it is if the receiving device can see the digital signal without having any issues, the stream is clean enough, and hence there is no need for "digital" interconnects. Anyone care to explain otherwise?
I'm a addiopile to and I use nothing but #2 welding cable to hook up all of the hi end addio and videeoo stuff I buy at WALMART and BIGLOTS!! YUK!! YUK!!
If cable's don't matter, then why waste your money on the OP's cables? Why not just buy lamp cord then? If cable's don't matter, what makes his cables heads and shoulders above Monster Cable?
Sal
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