Horrible new grading policy being tested in schools

[ShawnD1]

Damn you guys went to easy High schools where I went anything lower then a 70 was a fail.

This doesn't sound right. A z score of 0 is often applied to either 60 or 70%. Making 70% the pass (z score of 0) means literally half the class fails.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I suppose that they want to give us a broad education which means they can't really specialize. You're right, I'm thinking more about college.

Although, what about foreign language? I'd think that would be similar to math in that you are continually building upon previous lessons.

True, I could see it working alright in foreign language courses as well as in Math.

ZV

 

[KDOG]

This is faulty reasoning based on a piss-poor understanding of mathematics.

The assumption is that a certain minimum amount of knowledge of the entire subject materials of the course is necessary to pass the course overall. In the case of the current grading system, that is roughly 62% of the material (unless schools have dumbed down the 92-100 = A, 82-92 = B, 72-82 = C, etc standard with which I grew up).

In that scenario, a person who got 0% on half the assignments and 100% on the other half would receive a 50% final grade and would thereby fail the class. This is deserved because they clearly only understood half the course material, not the 62% of the material that is required to minimally pass the class.

Using the new system, the same student with the same performance would have an overall score of 75% (assuming 50% was the minimum grade). So, despite only having a functional understanding of half the course material (and therefore earning a true 50% failing score overall for the class), the student would be credited with a 75% score and a C grade. That's not better for the student.

This second situation allows students to pass with a sub-par understanding of curricula and artificially promotes them through the grade levels. This creates a situation in which such students are increasingly unable to cope with the higher level courses (since they are passed along despite insufficient understanding of their previous courses) and leads to greater and more significant failures at higher levels. Not only is this bad for the affected students who suffer from an ever more crippling lack of foundational knowledge, but it is also bad for the other students who actually are achieving at the appropriate levels as once the unprepared students who benefit from this plan are advanced, they monopolize teachers' resources which inhibits teachers' ability to provide quality education for those students who actually have the understanding to make use of it.

Furthermore, it is virtually impossible to earn (and yes, even when a student receives a 0%, that's the grade he has earned) less than a 50% on an assignment unless a student is either wholly unable to comprehend even the most basic portions of the curriculum (in which case that student should be held back for his own educational well-being), or the student simply doesn't care enough to make even a perfunctory effort (in which case the student clearly doesn't deserve to be moved forward and thereby consume educational resources which would be better directed towards children who actually want to learn). A student who gets below 50% on assignments is either academically out of his depth (in which case promoting him is detrimental to his own educational development) or simply not serious about his own education (in which case promoting him is detrimental to the education of others).

The only students this sort of system will help are those students who aren't going to be either able or willing to take advantage of it.

ZV

Excellent point. Can I quote this if needed?

This reminds me of an article I read about teachers not be able to use red markers on kids papers/tests because it "might make the kids feel bad." Oh please, If you don't want to feel bad and be stupid, then STUDY AND LEARN THE MATERIAL.

 

[Chaotic42]

Don't kid yourself. Uneducated parents have never cared about education. The reason your dad or his dad were able to drop out of school in grade 10 is because their parents just didn't care.

What are you talking about? How am I kiding myself, and what makes you think that my parents or grandparents didn't finish school?

 

[KDOG]

This doesn't sound right. A z score of 0 is often applied to either 60 or 70%. Making 70% the pass (z score of 0) means literally half the class fails.

Are you kidding? When I was in GRADE SCHOOL (up to 8th grade) at the Caesar Rodney School District (Dover, De) in the mid 80s' 74 was failing!. Had to get 75 or higher to pass. And they didn't pull no punches either. Trust me, I found out the hard way.

The dumbing down of America continues...

 

[Red Squirrel]

lmao that is freaken hilarious.

I've never had zero on a test to begin with, if you actually do get zero, you really asked for it. Even if you know NOTHING about the material, what are the odds of getting every single question wrong?

America: Where everyone passes with at least a C!

 

[Matthiasa]

lmao that is freaken hilarious.

I've never had zero on a test to begin with, if you actually do get zero, you really asked for it. Even if you know NOTHING about the material, what are the odds of getting every single question wrong?

America: Where everyone passes with at least a C!

Not all tests are multiple choice.

Ive had classes even in both high school and college where it was very possible for people to get 0's and with it being possible people sometimes did.

 

[Exterous]

and that Britain invaded Russia.

They did - a couple of times
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Campaign

 

[Exterous]

Some of you apparently don't realize that sometimes there are extenuating circumstances which lead to a horrendously low score - parents going through a divorce or some other horrible home situation. (Spare me the "but my parents got divorced and my grades weren't affected" comments.)

Oh believe me - we are well aware there are extenuating circumstances. My wife has one student who missed 4 weeks of class because her mom stabbed her in the chest, another who woke up one morning to find his parents had taken all the food money and the tv and just left him (the house is being foreclosed as well). The shit some of these kids deal with is mind-boggling.

That said a straightforward policy of no grade lower than 59% is wrong. Should you be willing to work with the student? Of course! Should they get a 59% whether they work for it or not? No.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Children will stay children forever unless they learn how to deal with hard lessons at some point.

But a fun childhood is such an important part of life. You can't deprive the children of that.

 

[Leros]

I feel bad from kids from broken homes, I really do. However, coming from a broken home doesn't excuse them from learning. If they need to be held back a year, hold them back. You're doing them a disservice by excusing them from learning.

He's saying that he makes sure the kids pick up the material by the end of the course. They have to pass the comprehensive final. He's not letting them pass without learning the material to a significant degree.

And lets face it, students forget at least half of what they learn over the summer anyway.

 

[HannibalX]

Didn't some States alter their gradings scales a few years go to make a 90% an A? When I was in school a 90% was considered a B.

 

[fatpat268]

Damn you guys went to easy High schools where I went anything lower then a 70 was a fail. In college though, it is below 60% for a fail after whatever minimum curve is applied.

Yea. For me, in elementary and middle school, anything lower than a 75 failed. In HS, anything lower than a 70 was failing.

I was pretty shocked when I went to college where people were talking about needing to make a 60 just so they could pass the class.

 

[SunSamurai]

The A - F system was suppose to be for simpler classless, manly grade-school (hince), where grades were based off more than hard facts and figures and more on effort and shit like that (to a point obviously; thats why we have teachers).

In JrHigh and on grading, in my mind, is done by a 100 point system, where even if you get 30/100, you have 30 points still. From that you can derive a grading scale, but thats not the point (no pun intended).

That is simple, and works perfectly fine and allows each child to have 100% reward for every answer that is correct and allows them a fine degree where they can catch up and every effort they take forward is an effort rewarded.

So I ask you, what the FUCK IS WRONG WITH OUR EDUCATORS?

 

[DrPizza]

Oh believe me - we are well aware there are extenuating circumstances. My wife has one student who missed 4 weeks of class because her mom stabbed her in the chest, another who woke up one morning to find his parents had taken all the food money and the tv and just left him (the house is being foreclosed as well). The shit some of these kids deal with is mind-boggling.

That said a straightforward policy of no grade lower than 59% is wrong. Should you be willing to work with the student? Of course! Should they get a 59% whether they work for it or not? No.

First, to address zenmervolt's excellent post with one error: "a zero score doesn't mean that a student hasn't learned anything." In all my years of teaching, I've only heard of one grade of a zero on a test where a student tried, but received zero points. ALL of the rest of those 0's were because a student was absent from a test and didn't retake the test, (or some other reason, such as cheating.)

Now, in your post - give those kids that you used as examples a zero? Life has already dealt them a losing hand. I'm not going to give a kid in either of those situations a zero & put them in a completely hopeless situation. That generally doesn't work out well for anyone involved.

Someone replied earlier that I was doing them a disservice - how many kids have you known who have absolutely failed with a horrible score & turned around and did well the next year? I can't think of more than 1 or 2 - and I see hundreds of students every year, year after year. How many kids in such situations as you described above put forth 100% effort the rest of the year - when mathematically it's impossible or almost impossible for them to pass?

But, how many kids have I seen who have benefited & turned themselves around? Very many. Oddly, I think many of you would agree that if a student can get a 85 on a final exam, they should be able to test out of a course. Yet, give them a zero for the 1st quarter because they weren't able to make up a couple of tests, and that 85 on a final exam might not be enough for them to pass the course.

I agree though with the general consensus on that 59 policy - that a 59 automatically be the lowest possible grade for anything is going too far.

 

[ShawnD1]

Are you kidding? When I was in GRADE SCHOOL (up to 8th grade) at the Caesar Rodney School District (Dover, De) in the mid 80s' 74 was failing!. Had to get 75 or higher to pass. And they didn't pull no punches either. Trust me, I found out the hard way.

The dumbing down of America continues...

Most tests are designed so the class average is somewhere around 70%. In many grading systems, the fail will be set 1 standard deviation below this value, so a standard deviation of 10% would mean 60% is the pass mark. With 60% as the pass, roughly 16% of the class will fail. At 70% pass, 50% of the class fails. At 80% pass, 86% of the class fails. z score chart

This is actually what letter or GPA grades on a report card mean. If the class is not on a curve, you'll just get a number grade like 78%. If the class is on a curve, you'll get a letter or a small number. For a letter graded system, the class average is often C. +1 standard deviation is B, +2 standard deviations is A. -1 standard deviation is a D, and -2 standard deviations is F (why did we skip E?).

 

[Exterous]

Now, in your post - give those kids that you used as examples a zero? Life has already dealt them a losing hand. I'm not going to give a kid in either of those situations a zero & put them in a completely hopeless situation. That generally doesn't work out well for anyone involved.

I am not sure where you got the idea I wanted to give them a zero. My issue is that a general - one size fits all 59% lowest grade policy is wrong. Sure there will be special cases - I even stated earlier that teachers should be willing to work with students. (So that in circumstances like I listed above the student still has a chance at success.) But too much coddling breeds laziness and responsibility issues - hence my issue with the complete and uncompromising rule that no grade can be lower than 59% even if is due to laziness and a lack of responsibility. If we remove reward (by diluting the meaning of a good grade) and remove punishment (consequences of a low grade) what is left for motivation? (Other than the parental influence - which is something we can hardly count on in this day and age)

 

[Siddhartha]

You guys can proclaim the collapse of Western Civilization based on the second or third hand story about the grading policy of one school system?

 

[Red Squirrel]

Not all tests are multiple choice.

Ive had classes even in both high school and college where it was very possible for people to get 0's and with it being possible people sometimes did.

Yeah true, but even something like a math test, you will at least get like half a point if you were on the right track but got the answer wrong. Then again guess it depends how strict the teacher is.

 

[Exterous]

You guys can proclaim the collapse of Western Civilization based on the second or third hand story about the grading policy of one school system?

the news links I posted earlier show its not an isolated instance. It's not that wide spread yet but it might be a growing trend to deal with the loss of funding due to No Child Left Behind. I sincerely hope not but our education system is not exactly in the best shape

I know schools are getting creative to keep their funding. (Changing names, Issuing 'Holds' instead of failing students)

 

[Siddhartha]

You guys can proclaim the collapse of Western Civilization based on the second or third hand story about the grading policy of one school system?

You guys are going to proclaim the collapse of Western Civilization based on the grading policy of one school system?

 

[Zenmervolt]

First, to address zenmervolt's excellent post with one error: "a zero score doesn't mean that a student hasn't learned anything." In all my years of teaching, I've only heard of one grade of a zero on a test where a student tried, but received zero points. ALL of the rest of those 0's were because a student was absent from a test and didn't retake the test, (or some other reason, such as cheating.)

Now, in your post - give those kids that you used as examples a zero? Life has already dealt them a losing hand. I'm not going to give a kid in either of those situations a zero & put them in a completely hopeless situation. That generally doesn't work out well for anyone involved.

Someone replied earlier that I was doing them a disservice - how many kids have you known who have absolutely failed with a horrible score & turned around and did well the next year? I can't think of more than 1 or 2 - and I see hundreds of students every year, year after year. How many kids in such situations as you described above put forth 100% effort the rest of the year - when mathematically it's impossible or almost impossible for them to pass?

But, how many kids have I seen who have benefited & turned themselves around? Very many. Oddly, I think many of you would agree that if a student can get a 85 on a final exam, they should be able to test out of a course. Yet, give them a zero for the 1st quarter because they weren't able to make up a couple of tests, and that 85 on a final exam might not be enough for them to pass the course.

I agree though with the general consensus on that 59 policy - that a 59 automatically be the lowest possible grade for anything is going too far.

I actually agree with most of your points, but the key thing here is that you are able to use your own discretion to determine whether a student has actually learned the material and whether the student is going to take advantage of the help you're offering.

My intent was to criticize the policy as a blanket dictum from school boards or administrators, not to criticize a teacher's ability to make exceptions in cases where exceptions need to be made. As you point out, in cases where students actually get 0% scores in real-world situations, teachers already work to find ways to help those students out. Even though these are legitimate situations, they are not what is being put forth as reasons for the blanket 50% (or 59%) dicta. The minimum 50% movement is talking about self-esteem and children who complete the assignments but receive legitimately low scores. My post was written to counter the apparent impression that the 50% minimum crowd seems to have about students who are legitimately earning very low scores.

The situations you describe seem more to me like the exceptions that are identifiable to an experienced educator rather than universal conditions that can easily be handled by one-size-fits-all rules forced down from a school's administration.

ZV

 

[TruePaige]

My high school used a 6 point system. College uses a 10 point system. Seemed like a good way to ensure better college grades because you go from a harsher system on easier material to an easier system on harsher material and it balances out.

I'm 100% against giving idiots a high school diploma. I'm also 100% against the idea that every single job requires one.

 

[DrPizza]

Ahhh, I guess we all agree then - there are exceptional cases where it benefits everyone when a teacher gives a kid a break. But, a universal, applies to everyone in every situation, don't give them below a 59 ever, is a dumb rule. :thumbsup:

 

[bommy261]

My garden is thirsty for some Brawndo.

Its got electrolytes!!!!

Water...... like from the toilet?!?! that movie is amazing.