holocaust and god

[JackBurton]

When things go right, it was God's will. When things go wrong, God works in mysterious ways. God can't lose. Why? Because he's God (perfect circular reasoning). 🙂

Paper completed.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Vic

Why? It's not like it's a privilege arguing with most anyone here, but I personally don't like debating with Garth because he always insists on changing definitions at his own whim and other such straw men tactics.

Like when? Put your money where your mouth is, smarty-pants, or STFU.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono

People make up all kinds of things to rationalize and justify rejection of God, because human nature is that we don't want to listen to or be accountable to God: we each want to "do our own thing" and/or "earn" salvation. So we make up gods to worship, we worship people, we worship ourselves, and we live a life of rebellion and sin against the Father, God, who created each and every one of us. Instead of acknowledging our own sinful nature, we like to blame it on God, like rebellious teenagers (read the story of the prodigal son to see the attitudes of the younger and older brothers).

Why must we make up something to worship? Why must we worship at all? What is it to worship? I worship neither myself nor anything I can think of and see no reason to start. I think you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here, specifically by forcing a word like worship into your view of a secular mindset.

What do you value above all else and spend your most precious time doing? What/who defines your life above all else? That is what you worship. It could be power, fame, material wealth, yourself, nature, animals, <insert name of god(s) here>, <insert ideology here>... the list goes on. Whether you use the term "worship" or not, the fact is that you do worship something. Even those who do not acknowledge a higher power worship something.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
When things go right, it was God's will. When things go wrong, God works in mysterious ways. God can't lose. Why? Because he's God (perfect circular reasoning). 🙂

Paper completed.

That doesn't explain the need some people seem to have to blame God when things go wrong. The OP being the case in point. It's no less a form of circular reasoning then to claim God doesn't exist because bad things happen (i.e., "If God exists then why does he let bad things happen?").

However, I'm sure I'm just wasting bandwidth pointing this out to you of all people, Jack. Flame away with your usual close-minded hate-filled garbage (like I give a sh!t about your opinions of religious people just because you can't argue the concepts themselves).
At least this way maybe we can stop this thread from being the Calvinist fundamentalist (*yuck*) Crono show.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Vic
Why? It's not like it's a privilege arguing with most anyone here, but I personally don't like debating with Garth because he always insists on changing definitions at his own whim and other such straw men tactics.

Like when? Put your money where your mouth is, smarty-pants, or STFU.

Like every thread you join in. Wow, make it easy for me. How about your insistence on defining atheism as simply being ignorant of the possibility of the existence of God in a recent thread, when every dictionary, thesaurus, and (hell) atheist organization on earth defines atheism as the active disbelief in God? Hell, don't make me link it, that BS of yours in a recent thread went on for pages.
Quite frankly, people like you and Jack (and a few others) are just as bad as the fundies (like Crono) at making the internet a pointless place in which to discuss theological concepts. It's very similar to how it's pointless to discuss actual political theory in P&N. The extreme opposing sides must square off with their straw men, and all must conform to their predetermined roles. Outside-the-box open-minded intellectual discussion is not tolerated.
You didn't know this? It's not ignorance, apathy, or stupidity that keeps most people from these discussions, or why these discussions aren't considered polite conversation IRL. It's because they don't want to discuss them with YOU (or Crono, or Jack, etc.). They have their own beliefs and they don't like you telling them what you think their beliefs are.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

I understand where Garth is coming from, because it is the position that everyone without Christ (including I, before I was saved) comes from: it is the position that "I am self sufficient".

That is not my position.

People make up all kinds of things to rationalize and justify rejection of God, because human nature is that we don't want to listen to or be accountable to God: we each want to "do our own thing" and/or "earn" salvation.

1.) I cannot reject something I do not believe to exist, for there would be no object of the rejection.
2.) Salvation from what?

So we make up gods to worship, we worship people, we worship ourselves, and we live a life of rebellion and sin against the Father, God, who created each and every one of us.

Gee, project much? That you feel you need to worship something doesn't mean the rest of us do.

Instead of acknowledging our own sinful nature, we like to blame it on God, like rebellious teenagers (read the story of the prodigal son to see the attitudes of the younger and older brothers).

I cannot attempt to place blame on something I do not believe to exist.

You can never be saved if you do not first humble yourself before God and cry out for mercy. Prideful man is unwilling to do this, and instead exalts himself above God. Pride is what brought down Satan, it is what brought down Adam and Eve, and it will bring you down as well unless you acknowledge the truth of your sinfulness, need for salvation, and the salvation that the loving God of this universe has provided through Jesus Christ.

More gibberish.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

You judge God by human standards which is inherently illogical.

God should be held to his own standards - those which he holds people to. To think otherwise is simply denial of the truth.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

You judge God by human standards which is inherently illogical.

God should be held to his own standards - those which he holds people to. To think otherwise is simply denial of the truth.

What standards does this God hold people to? Seems to me he allows them to do whatever they want.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

No, it's not that "simple". What if you knew 9/11 was going to happen, but you knew that if you prevented it a greater tragedy would definitely occur? I''m not saying that is how it is with God, but I am pointing out that your knowledge and my knowledge is always limited. God's plan is so far beyond what you are I can see (we are completely nanoscopic when it comes to the universe), that you have absolutely no sight to say that God is evil in any way. How can you or I be the judge? Our righteousness is like filthy rags in the eyes of God. God is the very One who defines what is right or wrong, and you have the audacity to say that he doesn't exists and/or that He is evil? It's worse than if a ant were to try and judge the actions of a human; but at least an ant isn't guilty of sin. It is pride that led man to sin in the first place, and it is pride that keeps people from being saved.

So what you are saying then is that if god let the holocaust happen, then it was a good thing? Amazing.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono

People make up all kinds of things to rationalize and justify rejection of God, because human nature is that we don't want to listen to or be accountable to God: we each want to "do our own thing" and/or "earn" salvation. So we make up gods to worship, we worship people, we worship ourselves, and we live a life of rebellion and sin against the Father, God, who created each and every one of us. Instead of acknowledging our own sinful nature, we like to blame it on God, like rebellious teenagers (read the story of the prodigal son to see the attitudes of the younger and older brothers).

Why must we make up something to worship? Why must we worship at all? What is it to worship? I worship neither myself nor anything I can think of and see no reason to start. I think you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here, specifically by forcing a word like worship into your view of a secular mindset.

What do you value above all else and spend your most precious time doing? What/who defines your life above all else? That is what you worship. It could be power, fame, material wealth, yourself, nature, animals, <insert name of god(s) here>, <insert ideology here>... the list goes on. Whether you use the term "worship" or not, the fact is that you do worship something. Even those who do not acknowledge a higher power worship something.

It may seem to be semantics, but it's very VERY important to realize that you can't do what you're trying to do here. My "worship" is nothing like your "worship". In fact, equating the two has the effect of grounding or demystifying what you claim to be absolute truth.

If we are that alike then we are equally likely to have faults in our perception of the truth. Yes that includes you.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Vic

Like every thread you join in. Wow, make it easy for me. How about your insistence on defining atheism as simply being ignorant of the possibility of the existence of God in a recent thread, when every dictionary, thesaurus, and (hell) atheist organization on earth defines atheism as the active disbelief in God?

Dictionaries do not define words, and neither do thesauri, Einstein. Moreover, I'm unaware of any atheist organization that does not recognize the distinction between strong and weak atheism. You are invited to provide a counter-example. Apart from that, your claim is still as baseless as it was to begin. Care to try again?

Hell, don't make me link it, that BS of yours in a recent thread went on for pages.
Quite frankly, people like you and Jack (and a few others) are just as bad as the fundies (like Crono) at making the internet a pointless place in which to discuss theological concepts. It's very similar to how it's pointless to discuss actual political theory in P&N. The extreme opposing sides must square off with their straw men, and all must conform to their predetermined roles. Outside-the-box open-minded intellectual discussion is not tolerated.

Nice rant. Any thing of substance, or did you just need to let off some steam?

You didn't know this? It's not ignorance, apathy, or stupidity that keeps most people from these discussions, or why these discussions aren't considered polite conversation IRL. It's because they don't want to discuss them with YOU.

Well, I'm sure glad we have the all-knowing, all-seeing Vic to tell us what everyone else in the world thinks. While your reading minds, why don't you tell me what I'm thinking right now?

Here's a hint.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

It's just that simple people.

Honestly, you are confused and knowing a bit about God would show you that.... People dying is not inheritantly evil. Not by God's word. Pick up the "Good book" to learn more. People killing each other out of selfishness is Evil...

Love = Good
Selfishness = Evil

People do evil things to others because of selfishness... The acts they do out of selfishness are not inheritantly "evil." Thats why those defending themselves and kill someone is not an evil act. But killing someone while trying to burglarize their house is an evil act.

So then killing an abortion clinic doctor knowing you will go to jail because you love babies is good then? ...Again, amazing.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Snatchface

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

No, it's not that "simple". What if you knew 9/11 was going to happen, but you knew that if you prevented it a greater tragedy would definitely occur? I''m not saying that is how it is with God, but I am pointing out that your knowledge and my knowledge is always limited. God's plan is so far beyond what you are I can see (we are completely nanoscopic when it comes to the universe), that you have absolutely no sight to say that God is evil in any way. How can you or I be the judge? Our righteousness is like filthy rags in the eyes of God. God is the very One who defines what is right or wrong, and you have the audacity to say that he doesn't exists and/or that He is evil? It's worse than if a ant were to try and judge the actions of a human; but at least an ant isn't guilty of sin. It is pride that led man to sin in the first place, and it is pride that keeps people from being saved.

So what you are saying then is that if god let the holocaust happen, then it was a good thing? Amazing.

I'm not going to make that argument, but it is a well-known but little discussed fact that a great deal of modern medicine came from the Nazi doctors and their "experiments" during the Holocaust. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Technologically-speaking, WWII literally changed the world.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Vic

Like every thread you join in. Wow, make it easy for me. How about your insistence on defining atheism as simply being ignorant of the possibility of the existence of God in a recent thread, when every dictionary, thesaurus, and (hell) atheist organization on earth defines atheism as the active disbelief in God?

Dictionaries do not define words, and neither do thesauri, Einstein. Moreover, I'm unaware of any atheist organization that does not recognize the distinction between strong and weak atheism. You are invited to provide a counter-example. Apart from that, your claim is still as baseless as it was to begin. Care to try again?

Hell, don't make me link it, that BS of yours in a recent thread went on for pages.
Quite frankly, people like you and Jack (and a few others) are just as bad as the fundies (like Crono) at making the internet a pointless place in which to discuss theological concepts. It's very similar to how it's pointless to discuss actual political theory in P&N. The extreme opposing sides must square off with their straw men, and all must conform to their predetermined roles. Outside-the-box open-minded intellectual discussion is not tolerated.

Nice rant. Any thing of substance, or did you just need to let off some steam?

You didn't know this? It's not ignorance, apathy, or stupidity that keeps most people from these discussions, or why these discussions aren't considered polite conversation IRL. It's because they don't want to discuss them with YOU.

Well, I'm sure glad we have the all-knowing, all-seeing Vic to tell us what everyone else in the world thinks. While your reading minds, why don't you tell me what I'm thinking right now?

Here's a hint.

LOL! Thank you for proving my point. From my standpoint (and from those who know me and understand my style and actual opinions/beliefs here), you pretty much owned yourself here.

Look it's simple. Human beings can only communicate by the agreement of symbolism. If we can't agree on the symbols we use, then we can't communicate. Simple as that. You purposefully misconstrue the symbolisms in order to straw men the arguments to your favor, and then you put people in little boxes of your own definition (he's a this, he's a that, etc.). It's disingenuous, close-minded, intellectually dishonest, shuts down any attempt at actual intelligent open-minded discussion for the sake of your own ego, and it's EXACTLY why most middle-of-the-road people won't discuss politics or religions with close-minded assholes of any and either extreme variety. Wake up. Do you really most everyone is too stupid or too apathetic? I suppose it's convenient and ego-inflating to think everyone is stupid, evil, and/or brainwashed except for you and those who agree with, but in reality, it simply ain't so and you're only fooling yourself.
No wonder you flip me off. 🙂

edit: don't worry though, you're not alone here. This "you're either with me or you're with the terrorists" form of dehumanization is everywhere. Visit P&N and it's all you'll see. Just keep telling yourself that it's not the fuzzy unclear nature of our existence that causes people to have disagreements... it's because they are evil, they are stupid, they're anti-science, they support the Holocaust, their heads are in the sand, they kill abortion doctors, they love Hitler, they would poison our children, they're the enemies of life itself and they must be removed from existence!

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

You judge God by human standards which is inherently illogical.

Really? Which rule of logic does it violate?

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

This is perhaps the most telling quote of the whole debate - you can't use reason or logic to discuss god or defy anything religion has to say...it's beyond logic. It's so true. Just stick your heads in the sand people and ignore everything you see and know is fact. If you can't explain it, chalk it up to god and let it go. Is this the dark ages?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Vic
LOL! Thank you for proving my point. From my standpoint (and from those who know me and understand my style and actual opinions/beliefs here), you pretty much owned yourself here.

Look it's simple. Human beings can only communicate by the agreement of symbolism. If we can't agree on the symbols we use, then we can't communicate. Simple as that. You purposefully misconstrue the symbolisms in order to straw men the arguments to your favor, and then you put people in little boxes of your own definition (he's a this, he's a that, etc.).

I will advise you to cease attempting to speak as if you know the contents of my mind better than I do myself. Not only do I not do what you accuse, you would have no way to know if it was done purposefully or not if I did. You betray your own arrogance and make yourself look foolish.

Your post is nothing more than a declaration of victory before a battle has even been fought. With regard to the definitions, my stance remains that the more nuanced meaning of atheism is more useful, more descriptive, more accurate, and therefore to be preferred in contrast to the more limiting and sophomoric definition.

In the most ironic twist, it is YOU that attempts to shoehorn weak atheists into your little box where every atheist is a strong atheist. It is in fact YOU that is guilty of precisely what you accuse. Physician, heal thyself!

It's disingenuous, close-minded, intellectually dishonest, shuts down any attempt at actual intelligent open-minded discussion for the sake of your own ego, and it's EXACTLY why most middle-of-the-road people won't discuss politics or religions with close-minded assholes of any and either extreme variety. Wake up. Do you really most everyone is too stupid or too apathetic? I suppose it's convenient and ego-inflating to think everyone is stupid, evil, and/or brainwashed except for you and those who agree with, but in reality, it simply ain't so and you're only fooling yourself.

You are so clueless it is hard to believe you can even muster a rant of such length. Go take a class or read a book. Learn something before you come around here throwing baseless accusations, and perhaps you'll look less like the petulant idiot that you usually do.

{snip soapbox speech}

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Vic
LOL! Thank you for proving my point. From my standpoint (and from those who know me and understand my style and actual opinions/beliefs here), you pretty much owned yourself here.

Look it's simple. Human beings can only communicate by the agreement of symbolism. If we can't agree on the symbols we use, then we can't communicate. Simple as that. You purposefully misconstrue the symbolisms in order to straw men the arguments to your favor, and then you put people in little boxes of your own definition (he's a this, he's a that, etc.).

I will advise you to cease attempting to speak as if you know the contents of my mind better than I do myself. Not only do I not do what you accuse, you would have no way to know if it was done purposefully or not if I did. You betray your own arrogance and make yourself look foolish.

Your post is nothing more than a declaration of victory before a battle has even been fought. With regard to the definitions, my stance remains that the more nuanced meaning of atheism is more useful, more descriptive, more accurate, and therefore to be preferred in contrast to the more limiting and sophomoric definition.

In the most ironic twist, it is YOU that attempts to shoehorn weak atheists into your little box where every atheist is a strong atheist. It is in fact YOU that is guilty of precisely what you accuse. Physician, heal thyself!

It's disingenuous, close-minded, intellectually dishonest, shuts down any attempt at actual intelligent open-minded discussion for the sake of your own ego, and it's EXACTLY why most middle-of-the-road people won't discuss politics or religions with close-minded assholes of any and either extreme variety. Wake up. Do you really most everyone is too stupid or too apathetic? I suppose it's convenient and ego-inflating to think everyone is stupid, evil, and/or brainwashed except for you and those who agree with, but in reality, it simply ain't so and you're only fooling yourself.

You are so clueless it is hard to believe you can even muster a rant of such length. Go take a class or read a book. Learn something before you come around here throwing baseless accusations, and perhaps you'll look less like the petulant idiot that you usually do.

{snip soapbox speech}

Heh. I did not shoehorn you or any group you might claim to belong to. That was exactly my point. Please continue your emotional vapidness though. At least Crono shut up with his nonsense.

 

[KarmaPolice]

is this a research paper? seems like a pretty sketchy subject.

 

[judasmachine]

Why does god hate the jews?

 

[DVad3r]

Originally posted by: randomint
Why do Jews have such big noses?

Because the air is free.

Yes I know this joke 😀 BAD ASS !!!

😉

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

God is the source of all evil...and all good. How can we allow that God created the entire universe and yet somehow divorce him from responsibility when it comes to the evil part of his creation?

Freewill goober

 

[PrinceofWands]

I had this paper in my philosophy of religion class (I assume most people do). My basic thesis was that God didn't 'let' anything happen. He created man with infinite ability and we stood by and let it occur. For God to act directly would supercede faith, and faith is central to religion.

 

[potato28]

This thread isn't locked yet?

And to contribute, God didn't let it happen. Hitler was a physocopathic maligment SoB that always wanted his way. He said he wanted the world, he tried and failed.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton
When things go right, it was God's will. When things go wrong, God works in mysterious ways. God can't lose. Why? Because he's God (perfect circular reasoning). 🙂

Paper completed.

That doesn't explain the need some people seem to have to blame God when things go wrong. The OP being the case in point. It's no less a form of circular reasoning then to claim God doesn't exist because bad things happen (i.e., "If God exists then why does he let bad things happen?").

However, I'm sure I'm just wasting bandwidth pointing this out to you of all people, Jack. Flame away with your usual close-minded hate-filled garbage (like I give a sh!t about your opinions of religious people just because you can't argue the concepts themselves).
At least this way maybe we can stop this thread from being the Calvinist fundamentalist (*yuck*) Crono show.

So your saying you don't like my one liners? 🙂

 

[Freshgeardude]

I am Jewish and I have the answer for you. the real one..... not the atheists' one or the arab, or the christain. Before the holocaust happened and the pre-years.........um lets say around till 1900. all jews were orthodox. the highest in ties to jewish beliefs like the torah and is strict with the laws of the torah. then came along these other jews and said we dont wana be this high in ties or w/e so they said why do in in Hebrew (jewish language, language that has been since adam and eve time) lets do it in our native language( at the time it was german). ok then they said lets be more the the christains so lets have services on Sunday instead of saturday b/c a jew couldn't work saturday or sunday b/c of their religious beliefs and then sund ay b/c no business b/c christains in church. so then it became less and less like real judiasm. g-d in his awesome power had to try and stop the ppl trying not to be jewish so he punished them. it ended up some of the really religous ones died, but thats what really happened