holocaust and god

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

You judge God by human standards which is inherently illogical.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: TheSiege
There was no Holocaust
and there is no God

Sucks to be you.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: db
I don't fault you for believing what you do. But PEOPLE make mistakes, including the ones who lead congregations and entire denominations.
I would rather trust the WORDS of Jesus than the interpretations of His words by men.

That's why it's always best to check what people say against what the Bible says. I still attend a church and listen to preachers, but if (by the Spirit) I can tell that what a person is saying isn't squaring away with the Word of God, I look it up in the Bible and see what it says. There are a lot of false teachers out there, and it's easy to be misled if you aren't firmly rooted in the doctrine and knowledge of the Bible. I, as a young Christian, was easily led astray by false doctrines, but now (as a "teenager" in the faith, perhaps) I am stronger in discerning truth.

 

[db]

There is probably as good an explanation for the existence of God as there is for the non-exixtence of God.
I would think that in either case, the actual truth is very simple. It's people who make it complicated b/c they do not understand.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

No, it's not that "simple". What if you knew 9/11 was going to happen, but you knew that if you prevented it a greater tragedy would definitely occur? I''m not saying that is how it is with God, but I am pointing out that your knowledge and my knowledge is always limited. God's plan is so far beyond what you are I can see (we are completely nanoscopic when it comes to the universe), that you have absolutely no sight to say that God is evil in any way. How can you or I be the judge? Our righteousness is like filthy rags in the eyes of God. God is the very One who defines what is right or wrong, and you have the audacity to say that he doesn't exists and/or that He is evil? It's worse than if a ant were to try and judge the actions of a human; but at least an ant isn't guilty of sin. It is pride that led man to sin in the first place, and it is pride that keeps people from being saved.

 

[brandonb]

First of all, stop blaming God for human ugliness... God doesn't intervene because he is not our master. We are the masters of ourselves. We control our destiny right or wrong in God's eye. Everybody has the power within them to be one with God, or to be without. Thats up to us. It's our choice...

Now if someone is killing millions of others, and those who are getting slaughtered are good people, they will be with God in the end. They'd end up there anyways if they lived a long life. So really, what difference does it really make? Only those who have no faith and don't believe in an afterlife are the ones who really worry about dying...

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

You judge God by human standards which is inherently illogical.

Really? Which rule of logic does it violate?

 

[Crono]

I know it's a (somewhat) cheesy Dreamworks song (it sounds like they are saying 'lie' over and over again during the chorus ) but I think it fits this thread. It illustrates how limited human perspective is: Through Heaven's Eyes.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It appears that to someone like Crono, the holocaust must be seen a good thing. It must be "for the better" that millions of Jews were slaughtered like animals.

You see, to follow his reasoning, there is nothing in the world that is not directly caused by God. According to Crono, God knew inerrantly everything that would inevitably follow his decision to create precisely this universe. In any other case we would assign liability to a person that could reasonably foresee the consequences of his decisions to act and chooses to do them anyway. So should we in this one.

But of course, Crono will special-plead his God's case all day long and into the night, because he has forsaken his rational mind for the mind of a True Believer(tm).

How's the Kool-Aid?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: aceofskies05
Why do you think god let the holocaust go by? Millions of people died and god jsut sat there why do u think he did nothing about this?

Because god hates Jews...duh.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

It's just that simple people.

Honestly, you are confused and knowing a bit about God would show you that.... People dying is not inheritantly evil. Not by God's word. Pick up the "Good book" to learn more. People killing each other out of selfishness is Evil...

Love = Good
Selfishness = Evil

People do evil things to others because of selfishness... The acts they do out of selfishness are not inheritantly "evil." Thats why those defending themselves and kill someone is not an evil act. But killing someone while trying to burglarize their house is an evil act.

You know the feeling inside when you try to be selfish, and do evil acts. Your conscience is there to let you know you did something wrong. It's always there... Cartoons used to display that with the angel and devil on the shoulders trying to convince the person of right and wrong...

Just because bad things happened to people over the years does not mean God is Evil. In fact, it tells us just the opposite. He loves us enough to not force us to be "Good." (which would be an evil act on his part, because that would mean God is selfish) Its called free will... Even if that means we will screw up and do bad things and people will suffer...

 

[Cooler]

Because humans have free will and must learn from their own mistakes.

 

[Aimster]

why should God do anything? when we die we go to a better place. God was helping them!

hey that is what your religions say

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

You judge God by human standards which is inherently illogical.

Really? Which rule of logic does it violate?

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

 

[RapidSnail]

Crono, are you Calvinist?

 

[thecrecarc]

God doesn't exist. By saying that your question is meaningless.

BUT, if you were to assume, like Crono, illogically that God does exist then we have several options. Assuming god is omnipotent and omniscient, he must of known about it from the beginning. Thus, he could of stopped it, but he didn't. Which means he is by human standards evil, or simply doesn't care. However, by most world religions, God is "perfect" and not evil. He must not care then, in "his" view, humans are just another life form, not much too look at. "He" has better things to do.

Then again, if you believe in god in the first place, you must have dumped all common sense and logic away into "faith". And with "faith" you can believe in practically anything, like Crono, who believes God MUST of not intervened, because if he did, something worse would of happened than millions dying. That, or everyone one of those millions are sinners. Or even better, God is so powerful, and his logic so great, it is inconceivable to any human.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

You haven't answered the question.

That an idea conflicts with one or more of your presuppositions doesn't immediately render it "illogical."

That's not to mention that your line of reasoning above doesn't follow any valid logical form, either.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
This boils down to a very simple equation. God by definition is omnipotent and omniscient. So he knew that the holocaust was going to happen and he could have intervened to stop it. But he did not. Therefore god either does not exist or he is evil.

Consider what would have happened if you knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand and could have stopped them, but elected not to do anything about it. You then later go public with that information. You would be vilified as evil and probably imprisoned or executed. God gets a free pass time and time again under those same circumstances. If you would have been evil for not acting on your information about 9/11 and allowing thousands of innocent people to die, then god is evil for the same...or he doesn't exist - the more likely answer.

It's just that simple people.

Have you ever seen Minority Report? If not watch it and you will see it's not that simple. You can't put someone in prison for a crime you "know" they are going to commit if they haven't committed it yet. This is in reference to your example, but as lots of other people are pointing out you can't try to rationalize whether God exists by the evil on Earth. It is explained in the Bible that God gave humans the free will to choose so that those who worship him will be rewarded for their faith. If God "ruled" and did not allow any evil I am sure you would be complaining about not having free will.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Garth
It appears that to someone like Crono, the holocaust must be seen a good thing. It must be "for the better" that millions of Jews were slaughtered like animals.

You see, to follow his reasoning, there is nothing in the world that is not directly caused by God. According to Crono, God knew inerrantly everything that would inevitably follow his decision to create precisely this universe. In any other case we would assign liability to a person that could reasonably foresee the consequences of his decisions to act and chooses to do them anyway. So should we in this one.

But of course, Crono will special-plead his God's case all day long and into the night, because he has forsaken his rational mind for the mind of a True Believer(tm).

How's the Kool-Aid?

Did I say that it was a good thing? What I am saying, though, is that even though people perpetrate evil, like the killing of people in the Holocaust, God can still use that event for good. Even non-Christians acknowledge that sometimes good does come out of a horrible event. I'm not saying that everyone rejoice when people commit atrocious acts; far from it! People should mourn. But like Paul says, when something bad happens to me (not when I sin, but as a result of doing the will of God), I rejoice in knowing that good will come from it, even though I might not always (though sometimes I do) just what that good is. When something bad happens to others, I mourn and sympathize and pray for them, not jump for joy, but I do not question God or blame Him.

I have shed tears reading what tragedies have happened to people who have gone through such incredibly horrific circumstances, as many did in the Holocaust. Many Christians, even in this day and age, are persecuted for the name of Christ, and I keep them in my prayers. I do not like to talk about my giving (I would rather be rewarded by the Father than by bragging before men), but I also do that for the glory of God and for the provision of those who are less fortunately blessed materially than I am. I'm not saying I'm perfect, because I was and would be equally guilty of sin (if not for the grace of God) in the sight of God as Hitler himself, or any other cruel and evil person you wish to name. I boast only of the grace and goodness of God, and not of myself. May His name be glorified.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Because the holocaust never happened, don't you listen to Iranian news?

 

[db]

It's the Christians who drove me from the church, unknowingly. B/c of their in-your-face proselytizing, over-stepping, misinterpretations, misdirection from leaders, politicizing, etc.

Jesus gave us a choice when He basically said that if you knock on His door, He will enter (your life). So if Jesus says you have a choice, I believe *Him* and not what *people say* He meant. "People"--even 'respected' ones with special hats--can be and often are wrong.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Crono, are you Calvinist?

I don't like to define my faith by saying I'm a "Calvinist" (or any other term, except "Christian", which originally was a derogatory term, btw), but rather that I believe the Word of God, which indeed does teach predestination and the doctrine of election.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Crono

Did I say that it was a good thing?

It's a natural conclusion that follows from your statements.

What I am saying, though, is that even though people perpetrate evil, like the killing of people in the Holocaust, God can still use that event for good. Even non-Christians acknowledge that sometimes good does come out of a horrible event. I'm not saying that everyone rejoice when people commit atrocious acts; far from it! People should mourn. But like Paul says, when something bad happens to me (not when I sin, but as a result of doing the will of God), I rejoice in knowing that good will come from it, even though I might not always (though sometimes I do) just what that good is. When something bad happens to others, I mourn and sympathize and pray for them, not jump for joy, but I do not question God or blame Him.

Is God capable of causing an evil act? If you say no, then you must necessarily believe the holocaust to be a good thing, caused by your god. How you can worship the idea of such a being is something I'm glad I am unable to fathom.

I have shed tears reading what tragedies have happened to people who have gone through such incredibly horrific circumstances, as many did in the Holocaust. Many Christians, even in this day and age, are persecuted for the name of Christ, and I keep them in my prayers. I do not like to talk about my giving (I would rather be rewarded by the Father than by bragging before men), but I also do that for the glory of God and for the provision of those who are less fortunately blessed materially than I am. I'm not saying I'm perfect, because I was and would be equally guilty of sin (if not for the grace of God) in the sight of God as Hitler himself, or any other cruel and evil person you wish to name. I boast only of the grace and goodness of God, and not of myself. May His name be glorified.

I often get the impression that True Believers like yourself think the things they say somehow will make sense if they talk about them in highly romanticized language. I read the passage above and all I get out of it is gibberish.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

Ducks are also not human, yet human logic can be utilized to determine the purposes and goals of the majority of their actions. Therefore human logic can be applied to things that aren't human.

I understand your argument, but you could have worded it better.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

You haven't answered the question.

That an idea conflicts with one or more of your presuppositions doesn't immediately render it "illogical."

That's not to mention that your line of reasoning above doesn't follow any valid logical form, either.

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?