holocaust and god

[Journer]

god....where?!

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

You haven't answered the question.

That an idea conflicts with one or more of your presuppositions doesn't immediately render it "illogical."

That's not to mention that your line of reasoning above doesn't follow any valid logical form, either.

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

If that is indeed true, how do you know that "God" is not an evil sadistic moron, using logic that no human can understand?

 

[db]

Predestination had to be an invention to explain something else that was hard to explain. So there then became two things hard to explain.
Really, if our fate is pre-destined, what's the point? What is our incentive for being 'good' if we are going to be punished or rewarded no matter what? And why would God invent a rigged game and waste His time watching what He knows will happen, pretending that we have a choice but we don't? Sounds like a human invention, and a pretty lame one at that.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

God is the source of all evil...and all good. How can we allow that God created the entire universe and yet somehow divorce him from responsibility when it comes to the evil part of his creation?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

Ducks are also not human, yet human logic can be utilized to determine the purposes and goals of the majority of their actions. Therefore human logic can be applied to things that aren't human.

I understand your argument, but you could have worded it better.

Ducks are also not God. Perhaps I could have said God is not of the human universe?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane.

WTF does THAT mean? "God like plane"?

Logic is an artificial construct created by humans.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as logic? Why would you call it "artificial"?

What part of God is not human don't you understand?

Rocks aren't human, either. That doesn't mean we can't still make logical deductions about propositions dealing with rocks.

How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

He doesn't just "allow" it. He created it.

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane.

WTF does THAT mean? "God like plane"?

Logic is an artificial construct created by humans.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as logic? Why would you call it "artificial"?

What part of God is not human don't you understand?

Rocks aren't human, either. That doesn't mean we can't still make logical deductions about propositions dealing with rocks.

How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

He doesn't just "allow" it. He created it.

You sir, are a genius! Here is a cookie :thumbsup:

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: thecrecarc

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

You haven't answered the question.

That an idea conflicts with one or more of your presuppositions doesn't immediately render it "illogical."

That's not to mention that your line of reasoning above doesn't follow any valid logical form, either.

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

If that is indeed true, how do you know that "God" is not an evil sadistic moron, using logic that no human can understand?

Because I make use of God's greatest gift and "choose" to believe God loves us.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: thecrecarc

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

You haven't answered the question.

That an idea conflicts with one or more of your presuppositions doesn't immediately render it "illogical."

That's not to mention that your line of reasoning above doesn't follow any valid logical form, either.

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

If that is indeed true, how do you know that "God" is not an evil sadistic moron, using logic that no human can understand?

Because I make use of God's greatest gift and "choose" to believe God loves us.

According to your own reasoning, that belief is illogical.

 

[Vic]

Discussions like these are flawed on multiple levels. They're ridiculous, childish, and disingenuous. The ultimate straw man: set it up and knock it down, then pat yourself on the back for limiting your own perspective and vision.
A more proper question would be: why did WE, all of humanity, allow the Holocaust to occur? It wasn't like it was really a big shock when the death camps were discovered. There had been rumors of them for years but most of the world refused to believe them. An even better question would be: why did WE do it? The Germans who did it were just as human as the Jews they killed. Assuming the existence of said God, should He have killed the Germans to save the Jews? How would that not have been its own Holocaust then?
Finally, exactly what is death to God? Everyone dies eventually, this is certain, so from the God perspective it must seem like all the human suffering is just over the timing of the deaths, no?

When you have those answers, then maybe you'll have the OP's answer too.

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: Vic
When you have those answers, then maybe you'll have the OP's answer too.

But I need to reach the "God-like" plane to get those answers! :brokenheart:

 

[deepred98]

Originally posted by: Garth

How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

He doesn't just "allow" it. He created it.

how do you know he allowed it

maybe he created the universe so that he could sit in his lawnchair and drink a beer and eat some popcorn while watching us, his creations, fvck around. Perhaps like shakspeare said, "life is but a stage" and we are just putting on a show for the amusement of god (i'm sure it gets boring being almighty). just my 2 cents

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: db

Originally posted by: Crono
Some people are chosen for salvation (a "remnant"), while the rest are chosen for unrighteousness and destruction.

If people have free choice, why are some "chosen for unrighteousness and destruction".?

It's hard to explain fully (I am not God, obviously), but while God does predestine people, there is, to us, the ability to choose whether to accept salvation and other choices we make in our life. From our human perspective, it looks like I chose to be saved, but it is actually and ultimately God who chose me and lead me to that point; there was nothing I did to be saved.

Well that's a contradiction if i've ever read one...

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Crono

Did I say that it was a good thing?

It's a natural conclusion that follows from your statements.

No, it isn't. If you turn on the tv, and see that a child in Minnesota was shot by another child in a school shooting, are you happy that the child was shot (I hope not)? But if something good comes out of it, say, that the person responsible is apprehended and punished justly and further (effective) laws and initiatives are passed to help prevent such things from happening in the future, are you not happy that something good indeed came out of that evil?
In that situation, the good does not outweigh the evil, but when it comes to God's plan for the entire world throughout history, it does, and infinitely so.

Is God capable of causing an evil act? If you say no, then you must necessarily believe the holocaust to be a good thing, caused by your god. How you can worship the idea of such a being is something I'm glad I am unable to fathom.

Like I said before in my other posts, God is not evil, nor is it in His nature to commit evil. Evil is done by man and by Satan, and will be justly dealt with for all eternity at the throne of judgement. God is good, and all that He does is good, and you nor I are capable of judging Him. I am nothing before God, and neither are you.

I often get the impression that True Believers like yourself think the things they say somehow will make sense if they talk about them in highly romanticized language. I read the passage above and all I get out of it is gibberish.

I apologize if what I have wrote isn't clear to you. However if you don't have the understanding to grasp that statement, then try to understand what I have said previously. And if you cannot understand what I have said previously, then there is nothing more I can do. Wisdom comes from God, so read the Bible. If you do not believe in God, or that the Bible is His Word, then you must first deal with that issue if you truly wish to know wisdom and truth, and to believe you must give up your own pride and put your trust in the Lord Jesus. Pride is always the issue, whether you are willing to admit that to yourself or not.

 

[db]

People will believe anything.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: thecrecarc

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Try to follow me here. God is not human. Logic is a framework Humans have created to interprete and organize the world which we perceive. Therefore human logic cannot be applied to God.

You haven't answered the question.

That an idea conflicts with one or more of your presuppositions doesn't immediately render it "illogical."

That's not to mention that your line of reasoning above doesn't follow any valid logical form, either.

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

If that is indeed true, how do you know that "God" is not an evil sadistic moron, using logic that no human can understand?

Because I make use of God's greatest gift and "choose" to believe God loves us.

According to your own reasoning, that belief is illogical.

No, according to your reasoning it is illogical. It is quite simple, you follow the theism of logic and I follow God's love. There is no arguing someone into or out of faith, that is what choice is all about.

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Crono, are you Calvinist?

I don't like to define my faith by saying I'm a "Calvinist" (or any other term, except "Christian", which originally was a derogatory term, btw), but rather that I believe the Word of God, which indeed does teach predestination and the doctrine of election.

Well Calvinists are a denomination of Christians who believe in predestination. Do you follow their interpretations?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: thecrecarc

Originally posted by: Vic
When you have those answers, then maybe you'll have the OP's answer too.

But I need to reach the "God-like" plane to get those answers! :brokenheart:

What is your point? Good and evil are human constructs of human emotions. Assuming the existence of this God everyone talks about, it is not only logical, but a logical necessity that He is just as evil and every bit as good as everyone says, both and at the same time, and to the farthest extremes of both imaginable. This "God-like" plane you facetiously refer to is in your own personal capacity to be either, which you should know all too well. There are your answers.

 

[db]

Let's all move this to a tavern and have some beer. But no throwing the mugs.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: deepred98

Originally posted by: Garth

How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

He doesn't just "allow" it. He created it.

how do you know he allowed it

maybe he created the universe so that he could sit in his lawnchair and drink a beer and eat some popcorn while watching us, his creations, fvck around. Perhaps like shakspeare said, "life is but a stage" and we are just putting on a show for the amusement of god (i'm sure it gets boring being almighty). just my 2 cents

I won't argue the possibility of that. I will just point out the fact that time is relative (as Einstein proved), and that the "God" timeframe is certainly quite different from our own. At the speed of light, time doesn't exist at all.

 

[Crono]

If anyone is interested in how God can use suffering to bring about good, Job is a good example. You can read all 42 chapters many places online, including here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job%20;&version=50;

It is the oldest written book of the Bible, and, like all scriptures, it is as relevant today as it was then.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Crono

Did I say that it was a good thing?

It's a natural conclusion that follows from your statements.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is. At least it is for those of us that think rationally.

If you turn on the tv, and see that a child in Minnesota was shot by another child in a school shooting, are you happy that the child was shot (I hope not)? But if something good comes out of it, say, that the person responsible is apprehended and punished justly and further (effective) laws and initiatives are passed to help prevent such things from happening in the future, are you not happy that something good indeed came out of that evil?

It perplexes me that you think this has any bearing whatsoever on the discussion.

In that situation, the good does not outweigh the evil, but when it comes to God's plan for the entire world throughout history, it does, and infinitely so.

This, of course, is your naked assertion.

Is God capable of causing an evil act? If you say no, then you must necessarily believe the holocaust to be a good thing, caused by your god. How you can worship the idea of such a being is something I'm glad I am unable to fathom.

Like I said before in my other posts, God is not evil, nor is it in His nature to commit evil.

Then you must either believe that god did not create this universe, or that he did not inerrantly know the future consequences of his decision to create it. Take your pick.

Evil is done by man and by Satan, and will be justly dealt with for all eternity at the throne of judgement. God is good, and all that He does is good, and you nor I are capable of judging Him. I am nothing before God, and neither are you.

None of this is consistent with your earlier claims about predestination and God's omniscience.

{snip}

 

[db]

Is it too soon to point out that our world is just a moment away from flame-out from one of God's lit farts at the frat party?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: db
Let's all move this to a tavern and have some beer. But no throwing the mugs.

Sounds good to me, I've got the first round :beer:

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Crono, are you Calvinist?

I don't like to define my faith by saying I'm a "Calvinist" (or any other term, except "Christian", which originally was a derogatory term, btw), but rather that I believe the Word of God, which indeed does teach predestination and the doctrine of election.

Well Calvinists are a denomination of Christians who believe in predestination. Do you follow their interpretations?

From what I can tell (using Wikipedia ), I think so. I'm not an expert on the various denominations, though. I consider myself non-denominational, but I do attend a Brethren church and agree with the basic doctrines that the denomination holds to.