holocaust and god

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

No, according to your reasoning it is illogical.

Your claim is that logic cannot be utilized to apprehend true propositions about God. Therefore, anything you choose to believe about him is at least as "illogical" as the original proposition to which you objected.

It is quite simple, you follow the theism of logic and I follow God's love. There is no arguing someone into or out of faith, that is what choice is all about.

It is clear that you are out of your depth. "Theism of logic"?? Come on. You theists can hardly blame the rest of us for warily regarding your beliefs when we witness the kind of nonsense they compel you to spew onto an internet forum such as this.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: db
Is it too soon to point out that our world is just a moment away from flame-out from one of God's lit farts at the frat party?

Bah the world will be here long after we're dead and gone. If it had a specific sentiment at that time it would probably be something along the lines of "Good riddance to bad rubbish".

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: db
Is it too soon to point out that our world is just a moment away from flame-out from one of God's lit farts at the frat party?

Bah the world will be here long after we're dead and gone. If it had a specific sentiment at that time it would probably be something along the lines of "Good riddance to bad rubbish".

You first please.

 

[Crono]

Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

No, according to your reasoning it is illogical.

Your claim is that logic cannot be utilized to apprehend true propositions about God. Therefore, anything you choose to believe about him is at least as "illogical" as the original proposition to which you objected.

It is quite simple, you follow the theism of logic and I follow God's love. There is no arguing someone into or out of faith, that is what choice is all about.

It is clear that you are out of your depth. "Theism of logic"?? Come on. You theists can hardly blame the rest of us for warily regarding your beliefs when we witness the kind of nonsense they compel you to spew onto an internet forum such as this.

Spew away Garth, you'll just have to sit at the short table and drink Bud Light. I'm sorry someone as "logical" as you cannot see how man can make a religion out of science and logic as easily as a belief in God. We have already declared that we disagree.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

Thanks, but no, thanks. Even less convincing than your consistently inconsistent statements is your self-righteous posturing.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Spew away Garth, you'll just have to sit at the short table and drink Bud Light.

Umm... what?

I'm sorry someone as "logical" as you cannot see how man can make a religion out of science and logic as easily as a belief in God. We have already declared that we disagree.

No need to be sorry. I wouldn't want to put myself through the mental gymnastics and psychological contortions that you have in order to "see" what you do.

 

[db]

Like I said, beer--but no throwing mugs. Everyone has a good reason within their own mind why they think what they think, and don't understand why others can't see it that way.
Fear can hold you back.

 

[Vic]

Heh... "limit the scope, limit the findings."

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: db

Originally posted by: Crono
Some people are chosen for salvation (a "remnant"), while the rest are chosen for unrighteousness and destruction.

If people have free choice, why are some "chosen for unrighteousness and destruction".?

It's hard to explain fully (I am not God, obviously), but while God does predestine people, there is, to us, the ability to choose whether to accept salvation and other choices we make in our life. From our human perspective, it looks like I chose to be saved, but it is actually and ultimately God who chose me and lead me to that point; there was nothing I did to be saved.

Well that's a contradiction if i've ever read one...

There is a glass half filled with water. I say it's half empty. You say it's half full. I am right, and so are you. But the whole truth (or at least a more complete truth) is that it is both half full and half empty, and neither my statement or your statement is complete truth.

"Salvation" defined by the human/fleshly perspective is partial truth based on a limited perspective. Salvation is by faith from the human perspective, but the reality is that salvation is also by grace. Grace precedes and supercedes faith, though, but both elements are present in salvation, and that is the truth that the gospel teaches. The glass is half full and half empty.

 

[blackllotus]

Maybe god doesn't exist, maybe he turned evil, maybe god lets humans control their own actions, maybe it was part of god's plan for humanity, maybe god created good out of evil, maybe there are three gods, maybe the holocaust never happened, maybe maybe maybe maybe... what if... maybe

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

That and the fact Crono tolerates Garth.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

That and the fact Crono tolerates Garth.

You're lucky Garth actually tries to debate with you

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

That and the fact Crono tolerates Garth.

You're lucky Garth actually tries to debate with you

Why? It's not like it's a privilege arguing with most anyone here, but I personally don't like debating with Garth because he always insists on changing definitions at his own whim and other such straw men tactics. It's not much different IMO than arguing the validity of the Bible using the Bible. And it's certainly not science. It's just pigeon-holing. Putting up straw men so you can knock them down. "You limit the scope, you limit the findings." You certainly don't learn anything that way or otherwise expand your knowledge and understanding.


Anyway, I'm still stuck at the OP. What is this God being and why do we keep blaming him for all our faults and sufferings that we keep inflicting upon each other?

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

I understand where Garth is coming from, because it is the position that everyone without Christ (including I, before I was saved) comes from: it is the position that "I am self sufficient". People make up all kinds of things to rationalize and justify rejection of God, because human nature is that we don't want to listen to or be accountable to God: we each want to "do our own thing" and/or "earn" salvation. So we make up gods to worship, we worship people, we worship ourselves, and we live a life of rebellion and sin against the Father, God, who created each and every one of us. Instead of acknowledging our own sinful nature, we like to blame it on God, like rebellious teenagers (read the story of the prodigal son to see the attitudes of the younger and older brothers). You can never be saved if you do not first humble yourself before God and cry out for mercy. Prideful man is unwilling to do this, and instead exalts himself above God. Pride is what brought down Satan, it is what brought down Adam and Eve, and it will bring you down as well unless you acknowledge the truth of your sinfulness, need for salvation, and the salvation that the loving God of this universe has provided through Jesus Christ.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

That and the fact Crono tolerates Garth.

You're lucky Garth actually tries to debate with you

I think everyone in this thread (myself included) could use a dose or more of humility. The remedy for pride is not a pleasant one, but one that is needed and prayed for earnestly by every true Christian.

 

[deepred98]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

That and the fact Crono tolerates Garth.

You're lucky Garth actually tries to debate with you

I think everyone in this thread (myself included) could use a dose or more of humility. The remedy for pride is not a pleasant one, but one that is needed and prayed for earnestly by every true Christian.

i respect your opinion and i think you have made some good points but your 'enlightened' superior tone detracts from your argument

imo there is no answer to the op's question, just various personal interpretations and beliefs. Mine being that god essentially created everything for his own enjoyment and was kind and pleasant enough to give us free choice

 

[Special K]

God intended for humans to freely choose to love him and each other, so he gave us free will. Because he gave us free will, he also gave us the ability to do evil.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Crono
I think everyone in this thread (myself included) could use a dose or more of humility.

Why? How can you ask for humility when your all of your posts are based off of unsupported assumptions? Your errors are not exactly subtle either (ie: you present the existence of the Christian God as fact).

 

[Gautama2]

Reinforcing my atheist brethren.....


There IS no god.
Gods are thought up to explain things which people cannot explain, but science has disproved many deities by PROVING why these things are.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: deepred98

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Crono
Garth, there is nothing left I can say. I have tried my best to explain to you and to everyone the beliefs that I hold to. But if you are willingly living in darkness, there is nothing I can do to bring you to the light, except pray that your pride would be taken away and that the Lord would save you, if it is indeed His will that you are to be saved. May God bless you.

You don't see the dichotomy of your positions. He believes that YOU live in darkness, and I believe that the only difference between you is the particular light you choose to see.

That and the fact Crono tolerates Garth.

You're lucky Garth actually tries to debate with you

I think everyone in this thread (myself included) could use a dose or more of humility. The remedy for pride is not a pleasant one, but one that is needed and prayed for earnestly by every true Christian.

i respect your opinion and i think you have made some good points but your 'enlightened' superior tone detracts from your argument

imo there is no answer to the op's question, just various personal interpretations and beliefs. Mine being that god essentially created everything for his own enjoyment and was kind and pleasant enough to give us free choice

You might not believe this, but I don't think I'm superior. I'm weak. I'm heavily flawed. I'm not intelligent. I'm not highly educated. I'm not a good person. I'm not an eloquent person. I have no skills in any particular thing. I am easily tempted and sin. I have done many things that I am not proud of, and hate that I have done. I'm not physically attractive. I am not funny.

And yet, if pride can rise up within me, it can rise in anyone. I am not here to speak well of myself, but rather to speak the truth that is from God and glorify Him. I am weak, but He is strong. I am hateful, but He is loving. I am a sinner, but He is perfect. I do not claim to have great biblical knowledge, but what I do know by the grace of God is that He does exist and the Word which He gave to us is true. My only wish and motive (or at least, what should be) is that truth be told, so that the truth may set you free. Only God can release you from the bonds of sin, and if the Lord sets you free, you are free indeed.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Crono

People make up all kinds of things to rationalize and justify rejection of God, because human nature is that we don't want to listen to or be accountable to God: we each want to "do our own thing" and/or "earn" salvation. So we make up gods to worship, we worship people, we worship ourselves, and we live a life of rebellion and sin against the Father, God, who created each and every one of us. Instead of acknowledging our own sinful nature, we like to blame it on God, like rebellious teenagers (read the story of the prodigal son to see the attitudes of the younger and older brothers).

Why must we make up something to worship? Why must we worship at all? What is it to worship? I worship neither myself nor anything I can think of and see no reason to start. I think you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here, specifically by forcing a word like worship into your view of a secular mindset.

 

[deepred98]

Originally posted by: Crono

You might not believe this, but I don't think I'm superior. I'm weak. I'm heavily flawed. I'm not intelligent. I'm not highly educated. I'm not a good person. I'm not an eloquent person. I have no skills in any particular thing. I am easily tempted and sin. I have done many things that I am not proud of, and hate that I have done. I'm not physically attractive. I am not funny.

And yet, if pride can rise up within me, it can rise in anyone. I am not here to speak well of myself, but rather to speak the truth that is from God and glorify Him. I am weak, but He is strong. I am hateful, but He is loving. I am a sinner, but He is perfect. I do not claim to have great biblical knowledge, but what I do know by the grace of God is that He does exist and the Word which He gave to us is true. My only wish and motive (or at least, what should be) is that truth be told, so that the truth may set you free. Only God can release you from the bonds of sin, and if the Lord sets you free, you are free indeed.

yeah... your pretty much preaching now...

why do you think your weak though?
if we are all god's creations and god is great and benevolent then shouldn't god have made us great as well?
what is sin? sin has basically been dictated by men, not god, even the ten commandments was written by man.
i think people are great because we were created by god and therefore he must have, in his kindness, imbued us with some of his greatness.

transendentalism really made an impression on me