Hillary Clinton Contiues the American Apology

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Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
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I had no idea we stormed Mosques here in the US. Could you link to that?

Nah that didn't happen, that would've required balls. The USA cut it's own balls off some time ago.

Actually the Muslims here in the western hemisphere aren't that bad... at least not yet. They by and large are interested in assimilating to our culture. I have no more problem with them having mosques than Christians and Jews having their stupid little buildings. (Actually some of the older churches are quite beautiful I must admit)

However, if native Europeans were to grow some balls and storm some mosques, or level them... now that might have some merit. Over there, the Muslims are much worse then in the US. Maybe we are more selective about which ones we allow to immigrate here... or maybe it's just an issue of quantity.

Mind you, my first gf was Muslim and Kuwaiti, I do not have any desire to view them in this light but they leave me no choice... there are good Muslims, but they are woefully outnumbered.
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
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You sound just like those fuckhead Islamic extremists , just replace the Koran with your Constitution

Really? Well I am not about to go storm any Embassy or kill anyone over a movie that offends me so you are way off base.
 

Riparian

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
294
0
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yes, that is what she said. she believes, by her choice of words, that this man should be condemned for his expression of speech. IMO he(or the group that comprises him) should be condemned for fraudulently involving others in the making of his speech. Those he exploited in getting to unwilling participate with this non-sense have all the rights to demand he be punished for their exploitation. Those offended by the act of speech? Fuck them as far as I'm concerned they should have changed the channel.

Riparian, please read as to what censuring is in the USA and you will see that that definition cannot fit into this situation, unless the definition of censuring you're using is the one that leads to condemnation.

This might be easier if you just explained what you believe censuring in the US means. Here's the definition from dictionary.com:

cen·sure   [sen-sher] Show IPA noun, verb, cen·sured, cen·sur·ing.
noun
1.
strong or vehement expression of disapproval

I want to follow your line of reasoning I just don't quite understand where you're going. Multiple posters thought that maybe you had meant the word "censor," meaning:

cen·sor   [sen-ser] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
6.
to examine and act upon as a censor.
7.
to delete (a word or passage of text) in one's capacity as a censor.

Anyways, I guess if you're issue is that you disapprove of a government official disapproving the content of someone's message yet at the same time saying nothing about taking away that right, then we're probably going to be at a permanent impasse. If a government official came out and expressed strong disapproval of the message put out by the KKK but did not limit the KKK's right to that speech, I would have no problem with the government's statement.
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
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obummer and hillary: "we're sorry, we should not have allowed someone to exercise their rights and offend idiots in the process, we should have asked the imams in the middle east what rights we are allowed to have".

Disgusting.

I'm sure our soldiers just love fighting to give this idiot the freedom to make videos that get them killed. I hope that dumbass pastor gets run over by a bus. Or killed by a muslim.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
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So much fail in this thread. :(

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans. Pew Research (2010): 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers; 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam. 78% of British Muslims support punishing people who publish cartoons featuring Mohammed; 68% percent support the arrest and prosecution of people who "insult Islam."

So much fail in the Islamic world. :(
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
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I want to follow your line of reasoning I just don't quite understand where you're going. Multiple posters thought that maybe you had meant the word "censor," meaning:

He did mistake the two. I don't think there can be any question. Here's what he wrote on page 1:

Don't care if she knows or doesn't know what it means, it's the wrong fucking word to use because we do not censure speech like that here, it is a goddamn protected right and I am insanely offends that she would even use anything close to a word that has to do with censure.

In context, only the word "censor" really makes sense here.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
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He did mistake the two. I don't think there can be any question. Here's what he wrote on page 1:



In context, only the word "censor" really makes sense here.

No I know what censuring is and I have been reading on it to make sure I didn't misuse the term. Can an American be censured? Yes. But not for acts like this and only if their a Government Official. So it is a goddamn protected right that he not be censured for his fucking speech. So any definition of "reprehensible" does not work unless you mean to CONDEMN THIS PERSON. That's the ONLY definition of censure you could use in context of this again, no one can be condemned for freedom of speech it's a goddamn protected right. So do we want to keep going over language?
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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Looking at the responses here, the Mormons and Scientologists should have burned and murdered and rioted after Southpark released their episodes mocking their religions.

I would bet just about everyone here watched those episodes and laughed. But because they don't act like primitive cavepeople that riot and burn and murder at the slightest offense nobody gives a shit.

Maybe the makers should apologize, "We're sorry you primitives have such thin skin, get over it."
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Wow. You guys are nuts. It's diplomacy..

No... they are the same chicken hawk pussies that didn't give a shit when American troops were over there dying by the thousands when they were Bush cheerleaders. Now they are using these incidents to thump their yellow chests and play the feigned indignation game. Pathetic POS teahadists... you can see how excited they got when the first reports of death hit the wire. Coward America haters...
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
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Furthermore, people in OUR culture cannot understand why another culture gets so upset over this - yet oddly, there's a TON of outrage over things like the protests at military funerals. Yet, people don't realize that these depictions of Mohammed are far more offensive to that culture than those military protests are to other cultures.

When Americans in large numbers go on a rampage to kill, burn and loot Muslims and their Mosques, maybe then you'll have a point.

There's outrage, and then there's barbaric, uncivilized, mindless behavior.. The two are not even remotely on the same level.

AND, idiots in this country blame their entire culture for actions of just a few in that culture. How many Mosques in the U.S. have been damaged in one way or another by people here? I think the tally is a bit greater than the tally of embassies that have been damaged...

Actions of a "few" my ass.. Poll after poll has shown that Islamic fundamentalism isn't some minority held view in those countries....and neither is anti Americanism or anti Western sentiment in general.

I will admit though that anti-Muslim sentiment has also risen dramatically in the West, since 9/11..
 

IBMer

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2000
1,137
0
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Most people here don't seem know about the Zoot Suit riots or other violent events that have happened not to long ago in the US. Its not always about religion. People also seem to forget that these people live in theocracies. They are raised with the idea that to speak against or leave Islam is death. That doesn't condone any of the actions that have taken place, but sometimes people forget that everyone in the world isn't given the same information or brought up the same way.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
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No I know what censuring is and I have been reading on it to make sure I didn't misuse the term. Can an American be censured? Yes. But not for acts like this and only if their a Government Official. So it is a goddamn protected right that he not be censured for his fucking speech. So any definition of "reprehensible" does not work unless you mean to CONDEMN THIS PERSON. That's the ONLY definition of censure you could use in context of this again, no one can be condemned for freedom of speech it's a goddamn protected right. So do we want to keep going over language?

You're the one who made the semantic argument to begin with. Look, saying that something is "reprehensible" is just a harsh form of criticism. You can call it rebuke, censure, condemnation, whatever you want. The fact is, the First Amendment doesn't protect you from harsh criticism any more than it protects you from milder forms.

Indeed, criticism is the entire point of free speech. The remedy for bad or offensive speech is counter-speech, not censorship. If we feel that we are limited in our ability to criticize the speech of others, then we may as well go back to censorship like in the old days.
 
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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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The right-wing's position is that it would be a huge affront to free-speech rights if, say, a neo-Nazi made a video stating that Jews kidnap Christian babies and then blood-sacrifice them during occult ceremonies, and in response a U.S. government official "condemned" the video.

Really, this is exactly what the right is professing to believe throughout this thread.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
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You're the one who made the semantic argument to begin with. Look, saying that something is "reprehensible" is just a harsh form of criticism. You can call it rebuke, censure, condemnation, whatever you want. The fact is, the First Amendment doesn't protect you from harsh criticism any more than it protects you from milder forms.

Indeed, criticism is the entire point of free speech. The remedy for bad or offensive speech is counter-speech, not censorship. If we feel that we are limited in our ability to criticize the speech of others, then we may as well go back to censorship like in the old days.

We're arguing over the use of a word, a word that has a value that cannot be so arbitrarily changed. If it can be, then it has no value in the first place. Censuring our citizens for speech in this nation is not something we do because freedom of speech is a protected right. If anything I'm simply asking for her to use a better word of proper value to assign to the actions because the one she chose was chosen poorly and doesn't represent support to freedom of speech. If you do not see that, then we're just going to be arguing over words and their meanings all day. I don't really care, it's really a moot point and I'll exit this thread now so we can hopefully talk about issues that actually matter like getting our asses out of the ME, not who said what and how we feel about it.
 

Riparian

Senior member
Jul 21, 2011
294
0
76
You're the one who made the semantic argument to begin with. Look, saying that something is "reprehensible" is just a harsh form of criticism. You can call it rebuke, censure, condemnation, whatever you want. The fact is, the First Amendment doesn't protect you from harsh criticism any more than it protects you from milder forms.

Indeed, criticism is the entire point of free speech. The remedy for bad or offensive speech is counter-speech, not censorship. If we feel that we are limited in our ability to criticize the speech of others, then we may as well go back to censorship like in the old days.

Putting aside the fact that condemning someone's statement is not some egregious affront to the right to free speech, I am still confused as to bfdd's interpretation of the word "condemned" and why he thinks condemning the message is the same thing as condemning the right to make that message. So, I guess for good measure, here's the definition of "condemn":

con·demn   [kuhn-dem] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
2.
to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.
3.
to give grounds or reason for convicting or censuring: His acts condemn him.

As far as I can tell, "condemn" is just another analogy for strong disapproval but bfdd seems to want to infer that "condemn" means something more. As if by condemning the person's statement, that we're somehow implying that he needs to be imprisoned for it and thus an affront to free speech. But in the end, it's confusion over his use of language. Semantics are important when we're trying to find out what people are trying to explain.
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,184
107
106
HAHAHA, just watched the video.
At 1:18, she says our tolerance for other religions started at the very beginning of our country. Guess she forgot that we conquered the indians, and those that wouldnt convert to our religion were killed.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
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When Americans in large numbers go on a rampage to kill, burn and loot Muslims and their Mosques, maybe then you'll have a point.

There's outrage, and then there's barbaric, uncivilized, mindless behavior.. The two are not even remotely on the same level.

So what do you call the Iraq war? Because we went on quite a rampage there. You might have heard about it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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You have American embassies all over the Islamic world (along with their staff) being targeted by violent rioters that are pissed off about a movie that grossly offends their most revered religious icon. Many of these people comes from societies where free speech from private citizens in a public setting is a completely foreign concept, so in their mind, a YouTube video represents the opinion of America's government. Our chief diplomat has an opportunity to straighten things out. Knowing that her words can either ease tensions or further fan the flames of protest and cause even more risk to life and property, what would you her say? "u mad, bro?"

Anyone with enough brain power to maintain consciousness should've realized that Clinton's speech wasn't meant for domestic consumption. Thankfully, we have adults in charge that put practically before ideology.

God damn this thread made my head hurt.

Right wing circle jerks will do that.

I didn't see Clinton's speech as an apology, at all, but Righties see it differently. Anything short of "Merricuh! Hell yeh! Fuck You! Make my day!" is some sort of apology in their twisted world view, obviously.

They're lucky that breathing is an autonomic function.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
HAHAHA, just watched the video.
At 1:18, she says our tolerance for other religions started at the very beginning of our country. Guess she forgot that we conquered the indians, and those that wouldnt convert to our religion were killed.

Conversion was a Spanish & Portuguese thing, a Catholic thing, immaterial to American protestants. That's why populations of Mexico & points south carry more Native American genes. Early Americans saw Native Americans as irremediably primitive & dangerous vermin, for the most part, and acted accordingly. Religion didn't really matter.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Quite frankly I'm disappointed and offended that the secretary of state would go out there and apologize for American values and the freedoms we hold dear. I thought a lot more of her before this.

Reading this thread is sobering, there are many who don't believe in one of our core freedoms.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Call the film art, have the national endowment for the arts fund it and Hillary would defend it:D

The exhibition was shown in New York City at the Brooklyn Museum from 2 October 1999 to 9 January 2000. The New York show was met with instant protest, centering on The Holy Virgin Mary by Chris Ofili, which had not provoked this reaction in London. While the press reported that the piece was "smeared", "splattered" or "stained" with elephant dung,[9][10] Ofili's work in fact showed a carefully rendered black Madonna decorated with a resin-covered lump of elephant dung. The figure is also surrounded by small collaged images of female genitalia from pornographic magazines; these seemed from a distance to be the traditional cherubim.




New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who had seen the work in the catalogue but not in the show, called it "sick stuff" and threatened to withdraw the annual $7 million City Hall grant from the Brooklyn Museum hosting the show, because "You don't have a right to government subsidy for desecrating somebody else's religion."[6] Cardinal John O'Connor, the Archbishop of New York, said, "one must ask if it is an attack on religion itself," and the president of America's biggest group of Orthodox Jews, Mandell Ganchrow, called it "deeply offensive".[11] William A. Donohue, President of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said the work "induces revulsion".[6] Giuliani started a lawsuit to evict the museum, and Arnold Lehman, the museum director, filed a federal lawsuit against Giuliani for a breach of the First Amendment.[11]




Hillary Clinton spoke up for the museum, as did the New York Civil Liberties Union.[12] The editorial board of The New York Times said, Giuliani's stance "promises to begin a new Ice Age in New York's cultural affairs." [13] The paper also carried a full-page advertisement in support signed by over 100 actors, writers and artists, including Susan Sarandon, Steve Martin, Norman Mailer, Arthur Miller, Kurt Vonnegut and Susan Sontag.[11] Ofili, who is Roman Catholic, said, "elephant dung in itself is quite a beautiful object."[11]




The United States House of Representatives passed a nonbinding resolution to end federal funding for the museum on 3 October 1999, and New York City did stop funding to the Brooklyn Museum. On 1 November, federal judge Nina Gershon ordered the City not only to restore the funding that was denied to the Museum, but also to refrain from continuing its ejectment action.


On 16 December 1999, a 72-year-old man was arrested for criminal mischief after smearing the Ofili painting with white paint, which was soon removed.[14] The museum produced a yellow stamp, saying the artworks on show "may cause shock, vomiting, confusion, panic, euphoria and anxiety."[11] and Ofili's painting was shown behind a Plexiglass screen, guarded by a museum attendant and an armed police officer.[13] Jeffrey Hogrefe, art critic for the New York Observer, commented about the museum, "They wanted to get some publicity and they got it.



I think it was pretty calculated."[6] The editor-in-chief of the New York Art & Auction magazine, Bruce Wolmer,said: "When the row eventually fades the only smile will be on the face of Charles Saatchi, a master self-promoter."[11]
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
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No I know what censuring is and I have been reading on it to make sure I didn't misuse the term. Can an American be censured? Yes. But not for acts like this and only if their a Government Official. So it is a goddamn protected right that he not be censured for his fucking speech. So any definition of "reprehensible" does not work unless you mean to CONDEMN THIS PERSON.

LOL, bfdd had to look up the word "reprehensible" to even know what it means.
LOL, bfdd doesn't know what "or" means.

"Deserving censure or condemnation."

That's not an "and," numbnuts.

33utmih.jpg


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Learn the difference.
 
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