Hamas strikes again

[fallout man]

I came back to check out this thread after today's events, and it looks as though some folks are way ahead in the posting department.

Is there any evidence that the bomb attack on the Israeli side of the border is the work of Hamas? Furthermore, if Hamas (pretty much the most capable militant group in Gaza) is not proven to be responsible, who did the dirty work?

As far as I'm aware, the border around Gaza was razed by Israeli bulldozers after the pull-out in 2005. There's something like 100m of open field on the Gaza side, a fence, and another 100m on the Israeli side. This is patrolled, and monitored by drones pretty much 24/7.

How does Hamas get across that hot zone to plant a bomb, retreat, and survive? Did the IDF find and present evidence of a tunnel?

After a short halt of hostilities, I doubt that the IDF would just blow off monitoring the border...

This whole thing doesn't smell kosher.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Just as an aside, didn't Britain legally own the land that they gave to the Jews during WW2?

No, though that is how some have mischaracterized the situation. In fact, Britain only held temporary administrative control over the land, which they backed out of and handed the situation over to the UN.

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Why are the Palestinians so upset?

That is a long story, here is a documentary which will give you a good start:

http://video.google.com/videop...d=-2451908450811690589

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: fallout man
As far as I'm aware, the border around Gaza was razed by Israeli bulldozers after the pull-out in 2005. There's something like 100m of open field on the Gaza side, a fence, and another 100m on the Israeli side. This is patrolled, and monitored by drones pretty much 24/7.

How does Hamas get across that hot zone to plant a bomb, retreat, and survive? Did the IDF find and present evidence of a tunnel?

According to the IDF, some upstart group claimed responsibility, see a few posts up. Also, there is a video which shows the IED was on one side of the fence and shot though to hit the jeep on the other side:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7854203.stm

Regardless, Israel blaming Hamas while Israel is still denying Palestinians civil rights while exploiting overwhelming military force to colonize their homeland out from under them is absurd.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: fallout man
As far as I'm aware, the border around Gaza was razed by Israeli bulldozers after the pull-out in 2005. There's something like 100m of open field on the Gaza side, a fence, and another 100m on the Israeli side. This is patrolled, and monitored by drones pretty much 24/7.

How does Hamas get across that hot zone to plant a bomb, retreat, and survive? Did the IDF find and present evidence of a tunnel?

According to the IDF, some upstart group claimed responsibility, see a few posts up. Also, there is a video which shows the IED was on one side of the fence and shot though to hit the jeep on the other side:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7854203.stm

Regardless, Israel blaming Hamas while Israel is still denying Palestinians civil rights while exploiting overwhelming military force to colonize their homeland out from under them is absurd.

apples and oranges......
yet we both know that Israel wants to be left alone and the others do not want to leave Israel alone.

You and I both know that if we dis-arm Israel in a short time there will be no Israel!

We also know that if you dis-arm the others(we call them others because no matter who says what it`s always somebody else) we know their will be Peace in that region....

Why would that be...hmmmm

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
yet we both know that Israel wants to be left alone and the others do not want to leave Israel alone.

I know that if Israel is ever going to be left alone, they have to stop this madness of denying Palestinians civil rights while exploiting overwhelming military force to colonize their homeland out from under them.

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
You and I both know that if we dis-arm Israel in a short time there will be no Israel!

We also know that if you dis-arm the others(we call them others because no matter who says what it`s always somebody else) we know their will be Peace in that region....

I know that neither side can be completely disarmed, and I also know that cutting Israel off from the means to continue their conquest over what little of Palestine is left is the only way to provide a peaceful future for both Israel and a Palestine.

I hope some day you might know as much as well.

 

[theflyingpig]

The violence will continue until one side is annihilated. There will be no peace until that is accomplished.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
yet we both know that Israel wants to be left alone and the others do not want to leave Israel alone.

I know that if Israel is ever going to be left alone, they have to stop this madness of denying Palestinians civil rights while exploiting overwhelming military force to colonize their homeland out from under them.

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
You and I both know that if we dis-arm Israel in a short time there will be no Israel!

We also know that if you dis-arm the others(we call them others because no matter who says what it`s always somebody else) we know their will be Peace in that region....

I know that neither side can be completely disarmed, and I also know that cutting Israel off from the means to continue their conquest over what little of Palestine is left is the only way to provide a peaceful future for both Israel and a Palestine.

I hope some day you might know as much as well.

again...your being rediculous and idiotic!
Can you even comprehend??
Instead of admitting I am correct in the scenario I proposed, AS always YOU never seem to answer anything!!

We booth know in a real world.....

But humor me and agree with me.....not because I asked you too...but because you know that I am right...

Leave Israel alone and there will be peace....
leave the arab world alone and there will never be peace.....

yet we both know that Israel wants to be left alone and the others do not want to leave Israel alone.

You and I both know that if we dis-arm Israel in a short time there will be no Israel!

We also know that if you dis-arm the others(we call them others because no matter who says what it`s always somebody else) we know their will be Peace in that region....

Why would that be...hmmmm

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

And Israel responds again by holding battle practice on the little farmland they had not yet destroyed... Thus hitting the civilian population instead of Hamas.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
And Israel responds again by holding battle practice on the little farmland they had not yet destroyed... Thus hitting the civilian population instead of Hamas.

AWWW......there will always be civilian casualties!! Get over it!!

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
We booth know in a real world.....

But humor me and agree with me.....not because I asked you too...but because you know that I am right...

Leave Israel alone and there will be peace....
leave the arab world alone and there will never be peace.....

yet we both know that Israel wants to be left alone and the others do not want to leave Israel alone.

You and I both know that if we dis-arm Israel in a short time there will be no Israel!

We also know that if you dis-arm the others(we call them others because no matter who says what it`s always somebody else) we know their will be Peace in that region....

I know that Israel stacks Arab bodies by the thousands in their colonial conquest across the West Bank, while complaining about primitive rockets which only rarely kill Jews. That is what is happening in the real world, the mantra you chant is only an illusion.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I know that Israel stacks Arab bodies by the thousands in their colonial conquest across the West Bank, while complaining about primitive rockets which only rarely kill Jews. That is what is happening in the real world, the mantra you chant is only an illusion.

Perhaps the Palestinians should stop firing their primitive rockets into Israel and make an attempt to gain the moral high ground and real support from the international community, as that is the only way they can ever hope to "win" this conflict. But of course they wont do that; it's not their way. They will continue to blindly fire their primitive rockets into Israel, and Israel will continue to slaughter them. Everyone knows this.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: fallout man
This whole thing doesn't smell kosher.

...especially the part about Hamas blaming some mystery third party for the attack(s). Wasn't that their lame excuse the last 100 times they've ever broken a ceasefire?! :roll:

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Regardless, Israel blaming Hamas while Israel is still denying Palestinians civil rights while exploiting overwhelming military force to colonize their homeland out from under them is absurd.

Is that your way of justifying each and every time that Hamas breaks the ceasefire?

Nobody's buying it.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Nobody's buying it.

Well noone who has their lips wrapped around foxnews' knob at least. You tell 'em!

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: sandorski
"Israel SHOULD retaliate unproportionally."

That seems to work so well, I mean just last week I was saying how Peace had come and stuff....

Fail Policy is Fail.

When Israel sits back as does nothing, that does not work.

Again, it was Hamas/Palestinians/Arabs that demanded the ceasefire.

The cycle is still the same.

Poke/Attack Israel; miscalculate on the response, get their butts whooped, go into retreat mode and cry to the world for sympathy stating they will never do such again.

This is the standard Arab playbook w/ respect to Israel. And then people are amazed that Israel does not trust the Palestinians.

Their leadership plays them for pawns.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: palehorse
Nobody's buying it.

Well no one who has their lips wrapped around foxnews' knob at least. You tell 'em!

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Hey, I'd go even further - stop supporting South Korea and start arming the North, for example. It would also have the benefit of settling right on with your radical left wing ideology - win!

How about we work to have Israel and Palestine hold secure border between each other? That is a workable solution much like what exists between South Korea North Korea today, and is just what the world has been calling for over decades, while our government backs Israel's conquest over what little is left of Palestine instead.

I think that the big difference between the two areas is both Koreas are willing to honor the DMZ. Neither lobs shells across it.

w/ Israel, an attempt at a DMZ in northern Israel (controlled by the UN) has worked as long as both sides want it to. As shown in '06, Hezbollah chose to ignore it.

The wall on the West Bank has acted as a DMZ and worked fairly well; attacks on Israel from that area have diminished. People did not like the effect of a wall, but it seems to have accomplished what Israel desired.

In Gaza, Israel tried the land for peace route and it did not work. As long as Hamas/Palestinians there have the ability to launch into Israel, they were doing so. The size of a DMZ there would have to incease to adapt to new munitions. The Palestinians will not accept losing parts of Gaza to protect Israel

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I know that Israel stacks Arab bodies by the thousands in their colonial conquest across the West Bank, while complaining about primitive rockets which only rarely kill Jews. That is what is happening in the real world, the mantra you chant is only an illusion.

Perhaps the Palestinians should stop firing their primitive rockets into Israel and make an attempt to gain the moral high ground and real support from the international community, as that is the only way they can ever hope to "win" this conflict. But of course they wont do that; it's not their way. They will continue to blindly fire their primitive rockets into Israel, and Israel will continue to slaughter them. Everyone knows this.

This here. It is hard for me to feel sorry for Palestine when they are fighting an offensive war. Firing rockets into civilian populations is aggressive behavior. Bombing Israeli military on the Israel side of the fence is aggressive behavior. If Palestine wants to claim that they are only defending themselves then they need to fight a defensive war and only attack targets in response offensive attacks by Israel. But that is not what I see. I see a nation that attacks almost at random, with no clear military goal or expectation of tactical advantage. It looks a whole lot like the only real goal is to sow terror and misery.
So even if you are right and Israel is treating their people bad and stealing their land how can I support a response that is nothing more then petty vindictiveness.
If Palestine wants the world to really back them then they need to pull their military together and fight a war that has specific goals that we can at least accept and not just kill Jews.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse

...especially the part about Hamas blaming some mystery third party for the attack(s).

The IDF said the attack was carried out by some third party, as the article a few post up explains.

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
So even if you are right and Israel is treating their people bad and stealing their land how can I support a response that is nothing more then petty vindictiveness.

There is no "even if" about what I'm stating, it is easily verifiable fact. Furthermore, Israel's conquest over Palestine has been going on constantly, since long before the rockets, so those rockets aren't vindictiveness as long as Israel is still actively colonizing across what little of Palestine is left.

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
If Palestine wants the world to really back them then they need to pull their military together and fight a war that has specific goals that we can at least accept and not just kill Jews.

Palestinians never had a military, and they have no possibility of one with Israeli military keeping their nation under lockdown over decades. Hence some are driven to the insanity of engaging in terrorism. However, even then Hamas didn't get the majority of votes, yet you still condemn all Palestinians for the actions of the few.

Why do so many of you insist on living in some fantasy world rather than facing the reality of this conflict?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Why do so many of you insist on living in some fantasy world rather than facing the reality of this conflict?

Come back and talk to us once the reasonable majority of Palestinian people have outright rejected Hamas' terrorist tactics and done something themselves to stop attacks on Israel.

Until that happens, it will remain difficult to separate the chaff from the wheat...

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Why do so many of you insist on living in some fantasy world rather than facing the reality of this conflict?

Come back and talk to us once the reasonable majority of Palestinian people have outright rejected Hamas' terrorist tactics and done something themselves to stop attacks on Israel.

Until that happens, it will remain difficult to separate the chaff from the wheat...

You are just dancing the chaff, ignoring the reality that Israel denies Palestinians the means to stop Hamas's attacks, and the fact that Israel's conquest over Palestine has been going on far longer than there was any Hamas or any popular support for terrorism at all.

 

[filetitan]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain
I'm sure there is still a hospital Israel can drop a bomb on somewhere in Gaza.

or a UN building

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
You are just dancing the chaff, ignoring the reality that Israel denies Palestinians the means to stop Hamas's attacks

I'm sure that Israel would welcome any/all attempts by concerned reasonable Palestinians to turn in each and every member of Hamas.

It would certainly be nice to see the Palestinians form "Concerned Citizen Brigades," rather than "Suicide Brigades."

If they policed themselves, the rest of the world wouldn't have to do it for them.

See Also: Pakistan.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I found it somewhat questionable that in the article IDF: Hamas didn't carry out attack ? but is responsible it is claimed ...

An Islamist group affiliated with Al-Qaeda calling itself the 'Jihad and Tawhid Brigades'

and

The IDF believes that the cell behind the attack is an extremist pro-Iranian group, which espouses a militant ideology that surpasses even Hamas' positions in its opposition to Israel. The group receives direct support from Tehran, but is connected in various ways to Hamas as well.

The army says that even though the attack was executed by this group, Hamas was involved and at the very least gave its consent to the plot.

Who knows what's up in this wacky world but I have my doubts that the 'Jihad and Tawhid Brigades' receive any support from Tehran because these yahoos appear to be devotees of the Muslim Brotherhood.

And there are 2 much more likely 'supporters' (who are our 'allies') who would be more likely to support Sunni extremists associated with AQ and the Muslim Brotherhood....

Are you seriously doubting Tehran's ties to Hamas and any/all events in Gaza? Seriously?!

Even with your blinders on PH you can see that the ""Islamist group affiliated with Al-Qaeda"" calling itself the Jihad and Tawhid Brigades who are Arab Sunni Extremists and followers of the Muslim Brotherhood and the teachings Sayyid Qutb are highly unlikely to receive material support from Shia Tehran in Persia. To make that connection is to claim Al-Qaeda support from Iran. I need to see some proof of that.

Without consideration to the fact that Hamas has denounced the Jihad and Tawhid Brigades could you at least admit (especially if you have viewed the video) that the tactics used are highly typical of Al-Qaeda and that the primary motive for the attack is to further incite violence against Gaza by Israel ???

Have we not seen this 'motive' before from Al-Qaeda-affiliated extremists? Think about that ...

Now draw a straight line to the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you see where that line goes?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I found it somewhat questionable that in the article IDF: Hamas didn't carry out attack ? but is responsible it is claimed ...

An Islamist group affiliated with Al-Qaeda calling itself the 'Jihad and Tawhid Brigades'

and

The IDF believes that the cell behind the attack is an extremist pro-Iranian group, which espouses a militant ideology that surpasses even Hamas' positions in its opposition to Israel. The group receives direct support from Tehran, but is connected in various ways to Hamas as well.

The army says that even though the attack was executed by this group, Hamas was involved and at the very least gave its consent to the plot.

Who knows what's up in this wacky world but I have my doubts that the 'Jihad and Tawhid Brigades' receive any support from Tehran because these yahoos appear to be devotees of the Muslim Brotherhood.

And there are 2 much more likely 'supporters' (who are our 'allies') who would be more likely to support Sunni extremists associated with AQ and the Muslim Brotherhood....

Are you seriously doubting Tehran's ties to Hamas and any/all events in Gaza? Seriously?!

Even with your blinders on PH you can see that the ""Islamist group affiliated with Al-Qaeda"" calling itself the Jihad and Tawhid Brigades who are Arab Sunni Extremists and followers of the Muslim Brotherhood and the teachings Sayyid Qutb are highly unlikely to receive material support from Shia Tehran in Persia. To make that connection is to claim Al-Qaeda support from Iran. I need to see some proof of that.

Without consideration to the fact that Hamas has denounced the Jihad and Tawhid Brigades could you at least admit (especially if you have viewed the video) that the tactics used are highly typical of Al-Qaeda and that the primary motive for the attack is to further incite violence against Gaza by Israel ???

Have we not seen this 'motive' before from Al-Qaeda-affiliated extremists? Think about that ...

Now draw a straight line to the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you see where that line goes?

My bad... I thought you were referring to Hamas as well.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I found it somewhat questionable that in the article IDF: Hamas didn't carry out attack ? but is responsible it is claimed ...

An Islamist group affiliated with Al-Qaeda calling itself the 'Jihad and Tawhid Brigades'

and

The IDF believes that the cell behind the attack is an extremist pro-Iranian group, which espouses a militant ideology that surpasses even Hamas' positions in its opposition to Israel. The group receives direct support from Tehran, but is connected in various ways to Hamas as well.

The army says that even though the attack was executed by this group, Hamas was involved and at the very least gave its consent to the plot.

Who knows what's up in this wacky world but I have my doubts that the 'Jihad and Tawhid Brigades' receive any support from Tehran because these yahoos appear to be devotees of the Muslim Brotherhood.

And there are 2 much more likely 'supporters' (who are our 'allies') who would be more likely to support Sunni extremists associated with AQ and the Muslim Brotherhood....

Are you seriously doubting Tehran's ties to Hamas and any/all events in Gaza? Seriously?!

Even with your blinders on PH you can see that the ""Islamist group affiliated with Al-Qaeda"" calling itself the Jihad and Tawhid Brigades who are Arab Sunni Extremists and followers of the Muslim Brotherhood and the teachings Sayyid Qutb are highly unlikely to receive material support from Shia Tehran in Persia. To make that connection is to claim Al-Qaeda support from Iran. I need to see some proof of that.

Without consideration to the fact that Hamas has denounced the Jihad and Tawhid Brigades could you at least admit (especially if you have viewed the video) that the tactics used are highly typical of Al-Qaeda and that the primary motive for the attack is to further incite violence against Gaza by Israel ???

Have we not seen this 'motive' before from Al-Qaeda-affiliated extremists? Think about that ...

Now draw a straight line to the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you see where that line goes?

I'm not sure PH has any blinders on. More likely is that you are trying to make this a simple case of Persian Shias don't like Arab Sunnis and so Iran would never support Sunni groups, when it's not nearly that simple. Iran is a big supporter of Syria, which is governed by the Ba'ath Party, and who are Sunni Arabs. In fact, Syria itself is a big supporter of the PLO and Palestinian causes so I wouldn't doubt that money gets funneled from Iran, through Syria, and to various Palestinian groups quite frequently. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.