Guns Are Number 1!

[JulesMaximus]

If you acknowledge owning a gun makes you less safe but you have it for recreational purposes that’s a perfectly logical position to have but from a societal perspective I don’t think recreation is important enough to keep guns legal.

I have owned guns for more than 30 years, I have never pointed a gun at another human being and none of the guns I own have ever harmed or killed another human being. If owning them makes me a tiny fraction of a percent statistically more likely to become the victim of a crime then so be it. I’m certain that on that same line, being an armed home owner, I am also more likely to prevent becoming the victim of a crime too so in reality it’s probably a wash. You can’t just look at one side of something and think you are presenting the whole picture.

I can only control my own actions in my own life. My guns are stored in a gun safe so nobody can access them but me. I feel confident that I have done all I can to keep society safe from my guns. Criminals will always commit crime and will always break laws and their illegal use of firearms should not infringe on my rights. Banning me, a law abiding citizen, from owning guns does nothing to prevent crime and I am unwilling to support more useless laws that just infringe on my rights.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Is that a real statistic or a made up one?

Gun Violence: Facts and Statistics

It is a fact that American children face a substantial risk of exposure to firearm injury and death according to scientific literature. Learn more gun violence facts.

violence.chop.edu

People who report “firearm access” are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms.

now, these are statistics. so we are looking at the population level. does that mean julesmaximus specifically, as an individual data point, is at high risk compared to the rest of the population? maybe not. but overall, yes, owning (or having access) to firearms increases the risk of homicide or suicide - plus many other associated risks, especially involving children.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Gun Violence: Facts and Statistics

It is a fact that American children face a substantial risk of exposure to firearm injury and death according to scientific literature. Learn more gun violence facts.

violence.chop.edu

now, these are statistics. so we are looking at the population level. does that mean julesmaximus specifically, as an individual data point, is at high risk compared to the rest of the population? maybe not. but overall, yes, owning (or having access) to firearms increases the risk of homicide or suicide - plus many other associated risks, especially involving children.

Suicide should be removed from this. That is something within my control so it really shouldn’t be part of this conversation..

 

[TheVrolok]

Suicide should be removed from this. That is something within my control so it really shouldn’t be part of this conversation.

Pretty naive statement.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Pretty naive statement.

Really? So you’re basically saying that I can’t trust my own self?

It is a different issue than gun crime.

 

[fskimospy]

I have owned guns for more than 30 years, I have never pointed a gun at another human being and none of the guns I own have ever harmed or killed another human being. If owning them makes me a tiny fraction of a percent statistically more likely to become the victim of a crime then so be it. I’m certain that on that same line, being an armed home owner, I am also more likely to prevent becoming the victim of a crime too so in reality it’s probably a wash. You can’t just look at one side of something and think you are presenting the whole picture.

I can only control my own actions in my own life. My guns are stored in a gun safe so nobody can access them but me. I feel confident that I have done all I can to keep society safe from my guns. Criminals will always commit crime and will always break laws and their illegal use of firearms should not infringe on my rights. Banning me, a law abiding citizen, from owning guns does nothing to prevent crime and I am unwilling to support more useless laws that just infringe on my rights.

I am looking at the whole picture - that’s the point. You are more likely to be the victim of homicide and suicide by owning a gun so if you’re owning one to protect yourself you are making a foolish decision. Don’t take my word for it, there is a large body of empirical research that establishes this.

Every gun owner is a responsible and law abiding citizen until they aren’t. There are plenty of dead people who viewed themselves just like you do.

 

[JulesMaximus]

There are plenty of dead people who viewed themselves just like you do.

And there are plenty who aren’t.

 

[TheVrolok]

Really? So you’re basically saying that I can’t trust my own self?

In some sense, yes. It's pretty clear you have an incredibly simplistic and reductive view of suicide.

Similar to what eski said, all gun owners are law abiding.. until they aren't.

 

[JulesMaximus]

In some sense, yes. It's pretty clear you have an incredibly simplistic and reductive view of suicide.

Similar to what eski said, all gun owners are law abiding.. until they aren't.

Well, you can’t go around locking people up for crimes they haven’t committed.

I am not sure how to even respond to your first sentence. I guess your point is that I shouldn’t own guns because I might be depressed one day and kill myself?

 

[Moonbeam]

The statistic that would interest me is how much more likely a person intent on doing someone harm is of success if the intended victim is armed or not. This is what I feel those who want to ban guns rob people of. People intent on doing harm don’t care what is illegal but taking the legal rights of responsible people to defend themselves is something gun owners can easily justify being violently resistance about.

Guns are just a side issue of a society lacking the willingness to understand and fix the culture it worships that is creating all the violence in the first place.

 

[cytg111]

So do I give up something I enjoy doing with my friends and my son because something may or may not happen to me at some point in the future? Fuck that.

Statistically speaking none of my guns will probably ever be used to kill anyone.

You drink?
How old is your son? He has access to the guns and ammo?
Love, emotions, alcohol -> stupid decisions.
You know that suicides from otc painkiller pill overdoses went down in Scandinavia after they limited the size on containers and the amount of containers you can buy in a day? The idea is that if you have to plan your suicide like that, you get to think about it in a non emotional capacity and then people dont. Problem with guns is that it's 0-60 in 0.0001 seconds.. No thinking required.
If we were really smart about it, we would keep a lock with a built-in breathalyzer on guns+ammo .. I betcha numbers would go down.

 

[fskimospy]

You drink?
How old is your son? He has access to the guns and ammo?
Love, emotions, alcohol -> stupid decisions.
You know that suicides from otc painkiller pill overdoses went down in Scandinavia after they limited the size on containers and the amount of containers you can buy in a day? The idea is that if you have to plan your suicide like that, you get to think about it in a non emotional capacity and then people dont. Problem with guns is that it's 0-60 in 0.0001 seconds.. No thinking required.
If we were really smart about it, we would keep a lock with a built-in breathalyzer on guns+ammo .. I betcha numbers would go down.

Yes, what people don’t think about is a gun present in the house can turn a fistfight into a gunfight. Almost everyone walks away from a fistfight. A gunfight? Not nearly as many.

 

[cytg111]

Yes, what people don’t think about is a gun present in the house can turn a fistfight into a gunfight. Almost everyone walks away from a fistfight. A gunfight? Not nearly as many.

Yup. Emotions. They will get us. (and a crossover to the Ukraine thread, why the idea of *one* man with a nuke button is fucking ridiculous.)

 

[Moonbeam]

If you acknowledge owning a gun makes you less safe but you have it for recreational purposes that’s a perfectly logical position to have but from a societal perspective I don’t think recreation is important enough to keep guns legal.

My my. Good to see you have opinions about how others should or shouldn’t live. My objection to this is that when I suggest something like that it is because it goes for or against an absolute, our true human nature. Do you see a fundamental on which you ground what you meant by ‘important’?

Personally, I can’t make such a call, but while I am not, as I would say, “so casual” in my opinions as to what legitimate recreation should be, I would emphasize self defense as a better justification as to why responsible ownership should remain legal.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yup. Emotions. They will get us. (and a crossover to the Ukraine thread, why the idea of *one* man with a nuke button is fucking ridiculous.)

All you two are saying is that you have enough violence repressed within you that you don’t trust yourself not to kill somebody in a heated rage. You are projecting that fear on others. It is not without warrant as the same basic culture that produced you produced all of us, but the real danger, in my opinion, is that you are likely unaware of what it really is you fear.

What you fear, in my opinion, is the loss of self control, of the monster within taking over. That fear has happened to me enough that the monster isn’t so scary. Rage opens the door to grief and grief heals.

 

[cytg111]

All you two are saying is that you have enough violence repressed within you that you don’t trust yourself not to kill somebody in a heated rage. You are projecting that fear on others. It is not without warrant as the same basic culture that produced you produced all of us, but the real danger, in my opinion, is that you are likely unaware of what it really is you fear.

What you fear, in my opinion, is the loss of self control, of the monster within taking over. That fear has happened to me enough that the monster isn’t so scary. Rage opens the door to grief and grief heals.

I can see how some people would find that. However I know some math. I know some statistics. I know of bell curves and I know some people. I am but one data point on that bell and with that knowledge I got forth in the world and form opinions ever so vigilant effort to suppress my own subjectivity.

(for one subjectivity: I *love* guns. for one objectivity I understand they have no place in civilized society).

 

[Paratus]

Well, you can’t go around locking people up for crimes they haven’t committed.

I am not sure how to even respond to your first sentence. I guess your point is that I shouldn’t own guns because I might be depressed one day and kill myself?

Since you enjoy using them in your case I won’t say don’t own them but realize there is another class of risks you aren’t taking into account.

You said you’ve never pointed a gun at someone. So you obviously practice barrel discipline. I could ask you if you also practice trigger discipline then why does it matter where you point the gun? You might answer because it takes two mistakes to hurt someone (gun accidentally gets pointed at someone and trigger accidentally gets pulled) instead of a single mistake.

It is the same thing when keeping a gun in the house. You say you can control yourself and for most of your life that’s absolutely true. However humans can and do lose control of themselves for various reasons:

• Emotions - depressed or angry
• Drunk
• Sick
• Disoriented / Distracted

If you accept that you are human and though unlikely these things could happen to you then you can put extra controls in place to make sure when your guns are out of the gun safe that one of the above doesn’t happen to you as well.

 

[fskimospy]

My my. Good to see you have opinions about how others should or shouldn’t live. My objection to this is that when I suggest something like that it is because it goes for or against an absolute, our true human nature. Do you see a fundamental on which you ground what you meant by ‘important’?

Of course I have opinions on that. That’s what all laws are. Gun ownership has a large and negative effect on public safety, which is why it’s good to make laws limiting them.

This stands in marked contrast to housing laws you support which cause mass impoverishment and human suffering. I think less human suffering is good - you think people should be forced to suffer until they live in houses you deem acceptable.

Personally, I can’t make such a call, but while I am not, as I would say, “so casual” in my opinions as to what legitimate recreation should be, I would emphasize self defense as a better justification as to why responsible ownership should remain legal.

If self defense is your goal then not owning a gun is the logical step to take as it makes you safer.

 

[Captante]

Suicide should be removed from this. That is something within my control so it really shouldn’t be part of this conversation..

Why?

Just because you are not at risk of suicide does nothing to eliminate the risk overall. (still I'm glad to hear it though!) Having a gun within reach makes ending yourself quick, easy and convenient.

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

"Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don’t own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don’t"

~ Stanford Univ.

SOME of the above also has A LOT to do with the kind of paranoid person who feels like they need to own a gun to "protect" themselves.

I worked in NYC for MANY years delivering among other things big piles of cash, expensive jewelry and fur's plus have done a butt-ton of GENUINELY DANGEROUS (and dumb!) crap in my life and the ONLY times I had a gun pointed at me were once by a 12 year-old drug dealer AND once by a bunch of cops! (in either case being "strapped" would have likely GOTTEN me killed not made me safer)


Also per the numbers you are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to be a victim of a gun-crime as a gun-owner not "slightly".

 

[darkswordsman17]

All you two are saying is that you have enough violence repressed within you that you don’t trust yourself not to kill somebody in a heated rage. You are projecting that fear on others. It is not without warrant as the same basic culture that produced you produced all of us, but the real danger, in my opinion, is that you are likely unaware of what it really is you fear.

What you fear, in my opinion, is the loss of self control, of the monster within taking over. That fear has happened to me enough that the monster isn’t so scary. Rage opens the door to grief and grief heals.

I like how, as usual you have to bury your head deep up your own ass, to spout off completely moronic bullshit.

So, yeah, its them being fearful, so what does that say about all the chickenshits that buy guns? Because I literally have not met a gun owner that has not gone out of their way to let me know about it being for self defense, then proceed to tell me how not only are they terrified out of their mind regularly, they have had at least one instance already where they almost fucking shot something because they were so scared, only to find out it wasn't necessary because it wasn't an actual threat or they just woke up or various other that showed exactly what people are saying is plainly obvious, that humans are very prone to rash decisions and poor thinking, and that because also people suck at understanding both of those things refuse to accept statistics that show the objective truth.

Having a gun, which is designed solely for killing, around, regardless of what reason you claim its for, greatly increases the chance you or your loved ones will be killed.

This is not difficult logic to follow. And yet, here we are, with yet another thread where people like you and gun nuts scream about how you're totally the exceptions to the rule and so therefore everyone else should just deal with your personal psychopathy, because you're too goddamned stupid to understand we're telling you, that we're worried about you, as you dumbfucks are massively more likely to hurt yourselves or your loved ones than you are us. Hell, I don't even give a shit, keep your fucking guns. But I'm done listening to you fucking lying sacks of shit clownasses spouting this straight up stupid nonsense and trying to claim its the actual truth and most logical. Its not. But as usual you fuckin idiots can't be honest and just admit that you don't give a shit about yourself or your loved ones well being, because you like stroking a metal surrogate penis. I just hope you don't get the urge to put it in your mouth or you get a bit of premature ejaculation and shoot your loved ones while cleaning it because you were too drunk or stupid to remember to clear any chambered rounds.

Guns make you less safe. This is 100% objective truth in 99.99% of modern society.

 

[Captante]

If self defense is your goal then not owning a gun is the logical step to take as it makes you safer.

Reality DOES NOT support this conclusion. sorry.

Quite the opposite in fact It makes you FAR more likely to be shot.


EDIT: I failed to see the "NOT" in the above sorry!

 

[cytg111]

Reality does NOT support this conclusion sorry.

Quite the opposite in fact.... it makes you FAR more likely to be shot.

Only way to make this solve is if you're a soldier on the frontline in Ukraine right now.

 

[Captante]

Only way to make this solve is if you're a soldier on the frontline in Ukraine right now.

None of the above applies to soldiers in a war-zone ... THIS is where guns belong!



(freaking Russians are likely to shoot me armed or not!)

 

[cytg111]

None of the above applies to soldiers in a war-zone ... THIS is where guns belong!



(freaking Russians are likely to shoot me armed or not!)

I think we’re reading it differently

 

[Captante]

I think we’re reading it differently

Yeah I somehow missed the "not" lol.