Greatest disaster in US history

[Chaotic42]

Anyone of Hispanic descent maybe?? Who the hell knows or cares.

I'm always behind in the weird terms people keep making up to further pigeonhole themselves.

 

[Ackmed]

OP, seriously one of the worst posts ever. Just all around dumb. So much so I really hope you aren't serious.

 

[dank69]

hahah keep crying fool, keep crying. your tears are delicious.

You you keep on making yourself look like a fool. It's quite entertaining.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Trump lies more in a single month than Clinton has in her entire career, and Clinton is not terribly honest. In fact, she's terribly dishonest. And her husband is worse. But recall that there was outrage over Clinton's lie about Lewinsky and that he was impeached over it? These days, who cares any more about a single lie when they care coming at us daily?

I didn't say this is the first time a politician has ever lied. It's the frequency of the lying, and its brazenness. By brazenness, I mean that Trump tells lies which can be debunked by any ordinary citizen with 3 minutes of time on his hands and Google. For example, the Trump campaign just said that he won by one of the biggest electoral college margins in history and called his victory a "landslide." This statement can be debunked in literally seconds. The point being that Trump will lie about absolutely anything because he knows his supporters will believe him no matter what he says. He can claim that our entire electoral system is corrupt and that election results can never be trusted (unless Trump wins, then only the popular vote will be questioned), and people instantly believe him. What are the implications of making people believe that our elections can't be trusted?

This isn't about Trump's lying per se. It's that no one cares any more. Anything said which supports your political football team is fine and dandy. Even Russian propaganda is worth re-tweeting if it says something that hurts the other side. This isn't new but the extent of it is staggering. We're fast becoming a society where truth is totally unimportant. You know what happens when truth doesn't matter any more? Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany losing WWI and people believed him. If people can be manipulated into believing anything, we won't have a democracy for much longer.

Yeah, I'm afraid the sky IS falling, and Trump being POTUS is only the beginning of it. From now on, campaigns will rise and fall entirely on how savvy each side is in proliferating fake news on social media because nothing else really matters any more except how much online propaganda is out there because this propaganda will always be believed by credulous partisans. Always. The hacking can probably be avoided with additional security in the future but people's willingness to believe literally anything they read isn't going to change. If you aren't concerned about this, you should be. It may be happening more on the right these days than the left, but both sides are doing it and will continue to do so in the future, at an accelerating rate.

Certainly there are valid concerns however there is one thing you didn't mention and that is parties don't have the attitude of "my liar lies less than yours so mine is worthy". From the beginning both candidates were actively disliked and should have been seen as fatality flawed, but here and elsewhere the fact that they were so unpopular fell on deaf ears and attributed to fake news etc. It was everyone else's fault and apparently still is. Every indicator showed that the only person of demonstrable character would have beaten Trump and he was set upon by the Party.

So next time Reps and Dems why don't you try running people like Bernie in terms of honesty or have you none?

I expect that this lesson will go unlearned and that is the real tragedy, more than Trump.

 

[dank69]

Certainly there are valid concerns however there is one thing you didn't mention and that is parties don't have the attitude of "my liar lies less than yours so mine is worthy". From the beginning both candidates were actively disliked and should have been seen as fatality flawed, but here and elsewhere the fact that they were so unpopular fell on deaf ears and attributed to fake news etc. It was everyone else's fault and apparently still is. Every indicator showed that the only person of demonstrable character would have beaten Trump and he was set upon by the Party.

So next time Reps and Dems why don't you try running people like Bernie in terms of honesty or have you none?

I expect that this lesson will go unlearned and that is the real tragedy, more than Trump.

Once again, there is literally no evidence that the DNC did anything to stop Bernie, just like there is literally no evidence that Hillary has done anything criminal yet half or more of the population is convinced that she is a criminal.

 

[OutHouse]

You you keep on making yourself look like a fool. It's quite entertaining.

stop crying, your sweet tears are making us fat.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Once again, there is literally no evidence that the DNC did anything to stop Bernie, just like there is literally no evidence that Hillary has done anything criminal yet half or more of the population is convinced that she is a criminal.

Never mentioned criminal. Maybe people like Donna Brazile shouldn't be passing along any information to particular candidates about another for one thing. But that's a distraction because Clinton was not an honest person as Wolfe mentions. Again try running someone with more credibility and not trying to justify so much. The sad fact is that you and the Republicans were dead set on shoving these two at us and this is what we got, two divisionist politicians each of whom looked down on the opposition's supporters as being baskets of deplorables. Well, no. Some? Sure on both sides I might add, however that didn't play out well with a great many of us, not that we had much say in what was shoved at us.

Try finding people like Bernie, not automatically his views but ethically and morally. I doubt either side has many left.

 

[dank69]

Never mentioned criminal. Maybe people like Donna Brazile shouldn't be passing along any information to particular candidates about another for one thing. But that's a distraction because Clinton was not an honest person as Wolfe mentions. Again try running someone with more credibility and not trying to justify so much. The sad fact is that you and the Republicans were dead set on shoving these two at us and this is what we got, two divisionist politicians each of whom looked down on the opposition's supporters as being baskets of deplorables. Well, no. Some? Sure on both sides I might add, however that didn't play out well with a great many of us, not that we had much say in what was shoved at us.

Try finding people like Bernie, not automatically his views but ethically and morally. I doubt either side has many left.

I didn't say you mentioned criminal, I was just highlighting another similar case of people believing things based on nothing but hearsay from biased sources. I don't know why Wolfe said she is highly dishonest when the fact checkers show she is among the most honest politicians out there, including Bernie.

But let's look at your statement "Donna Brazile shouldn't be passing along any information to particular candidates". I agree, she shouldn't have done that. It was a colossally stupid thing to do, both because it provided zero benefit and also helps fuel the false narrative that this type of collusion is rampant between Democrats and the mainstream media. It also is enough to convince people like you that the DNC/Hillary are corrupt when there is no evidence that this information was solicited.

Now let's look at your other quote about the basket of deplorables. Let's look at it in context:

"I know there are only 60 days left to make our case -- and don't get complacent, don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, well, he's done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America."

"But the other basket -- and I know this because I see friends from all over America here -- I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas -- as well as, you know, New York and California -- but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

She even says it's grossly generalistic as she is saying it. She later apologized, something Trump never fucking did for his MANY, MANY comments that were MUCH, MUCH worse by the way. So reading it in context, tell me what is so offensive about it? Let's pretend you are a Trump supporter, and you know you aren't any of those things she mentioned as being deplorable, why would you be offended by that statement when you clearly belong to the other basket? Why aren't you equally outraged by the people who do fit in the deplorable basket? Should we not label people that are racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, or Islamaphobic as deplorable?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I didn't say you mentioned criminal, I was just highlighting another similar case of people believing things based on nothing but hearsay from biased sources. I don't know why Wolfe said she is highly dishonest when the fact checkers show she is among the most honest politicians out there, including Bernie.

But let's look at your statement "Donna Brazile shouldn't be passing along any information to particular candidates". I agree, she shouldn't have done that. It was a colossally stupid thing to do, both because it provided zero benefit and also helps fuel the false narrative that this type of collusion is rampant between Democrats and the mainstream media. It also is enough to convince people like you that the DNC/Hillary are corrupt when there is no evidence that this information was solicited.

Now let's look at your other quote about the basket of deplorables. Let's look at it in context:


She even says it's grossly generalistic as she is saying it. She later apologized, something Trump never fucking did for his MANY, MANY comments that were MUCH, MUCH worse by the way. So reading it in context, tell me what is so offensive about it? Let's pretend you are a Trump supporter, and you know you aren't any of those things she mentioned as being deplorable, why would you be offended by that statement when you clearly belong to the other basket? Why aren't you equally outraged by the people who do fit in the deplorable basket? Should we not label people that are racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, or Islamaphobic as deplorable?

When you label people you need to make damn sure you are right. That Trump didn't apologize? Of course not, but then I'm not telling you why I like Trump because I don't. What I dislike (and you can find it around here) is the "shit on the shoe" attitude that many had here with generalizations aplenty. As far as outraged let's face it. This place is bigoted in its own way as the latest Christian thread shows. I find it all abhorrent but all of that is beside the point. Hillary and Trump pandered. Hillary apologized but because she thought she was wrong? I think not. She realized she put her foot in it and she's not so stupid that she didn't realize her mistake, but she's not of a nature to be inclusive in any real sense. That her daughters will be just fine because they are white? They are privileged because they they are daughters of a would be dynasty with fantastic wealth. Hell David Duke would be alright with that kind of money as would anyone and not because of his KKK connections.

Now you might be tempted to say "but Trump" and I'd say that he's a terrible choice. But Democrats should have known and went with Hillary anyway, the only person who could lost to Trump.

Stop this divide and conquer nonsense and realize that those "deplorables" exist but most people are just looking for hope and no candidate really offered it for the nation as a whole. Life expectancy in the US is down and it's not because of health care, it's that no one really gives a shit about people, they just want fame and fortune through politics. That realized many see no reason to deal with this reality.

One of the "deplorable" parties or both better start looking at people more charitably.

 

[dank69]

When you label people you need to make damn sure you are right. That Trump didn't apologize? Of course not, but then I'm not telling you why I like Trump because I don't. What I dislike (and you can find it around here) is the "shit on the shoe" attitude that many had here with generalizations aplenty. As far as outraged let's face it. This place is bigoted in its own way as the latest Christian thread shows. I find it all abhorrent but all of that is beside the point. Hillary and Trump pandered. Hillary apologized but because she thought she was wrong? I think not. She realized she put her foot in it and she's not so stupid that she didn't realize her mistake, but she's not of a nature to be inclusive in any real sense. That her daughters will be just fine because they are white? They are privileged because they they are daughters of a would be dynasty with fantastic wealth. Hell David Duke would be alright with that kind of money as would anyone and not because of his KKK connections.

Now you might be tempted to say "but Trump" and I'd say that he's a terrible choice. But Democrats should have known and went with Hillary anyway, the only person who could lost to Trump.

Stop this divide and conquer nonsense and realize that those "deplorables" exist but most people are just looking for hope and no candidate really offered it for the nation as a whole. Life expectancy in the US is down and it's not because of health care, it's that no one really gives a shit about people, they just want fame and fortune through politics. That realized many see no reason to deal with this reality.

One of the "deplorable" parties or both better start looking at people more charitably.

Ha, I bolded the part where you claim to know what is in Hillary's heart and mind. No amount of evidence or lack of evidence would have ever convinced you otherwise because you know what you think and that is that. Just like every conservative ever. Form your opinion based on feels instead of remaining neutral until you find convincing, reliable evidence to help you form a supportable opinion. Mounds of evidence exist showing all the good she has done for the less fortunate throughout her career, but you just know that she is just in it for fame and fortune.

Good job not answering my questions by the way. I expect nothing less.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ha, I bolded the part where you claim to know what is in Hillary's heart and mind. No amount of evidence or lack of evidence would have ever convinced you otherwise because you know what you think and that is that. Just like every conservative ever. Form your opinion based on feels instead of remaining neutral until you find convincing, reliable evidence to help you form a supportable opinion. Mounds of evidence exist showing all the good she has done for the less fortunate throughout her career, but you just know that she is just in it for fame and fortune.

Good job not answering my questions by the way. I expect nothing less.

I base my judgements on observation and I have watched Hillary when you no doubt weren't capable of understanding much of anything. I do find the "just like every conservative ever" quite funny. She's your saint, so be it. She can continue going around the rust belts, which all liberals ever look down on as baskets of deplorables telling them how lucky they are to be out of a job because no matter what they are white. Wait, don't all liberals do that? Na, only a dope would seriously make that kind of statement and mean it, like you on conservatives. BTW, you realize I don't fit into that little ideological box or the other either, right? If you do not no matter. Clinton lacks empathy and she took people for granted and that cost her. But yes I acknowledge she has already acquired fame and fortune, the last from the people she pretends to dislike. I'll correct myself and say it was about ego and power, like Trump.

Please pick another unpopular candidate and tell us how we are all stupid if we don't vote for him or her. That should work about as well as this last time. There's not much difference in how either side thinks, just what about. The ideological divide grows ever larger and each side fuels it. So be it.

 

[shortylickens]

I agree with many points in this article:

http://www.salon.com/2016/12/06/hus...bt-donald-trump-will-complete-his-first-term/

(Warning, Strong Anti-Trump message here)

 

[zinfamous]

I'd be astonished if Trump precipitates a 2nd Civil War or unemployment, deflation, and drought like what we experienced during the Great Depression. There will certainly be a number of constitutional crisis unlike what has been seen since the 1860s, but keep me updated once war breaks out in my neighborhood.

Until then, I'll just categorize this as raging hyperbole.

 

[dank69]

I base my judgements on observation and I have watched Hillary when you no doubt weren't capable of understanding much of anything. I do find the "just like every conservative ever" quite funny. She's your saint, so be it. She can continue going around the rust belts, which all liberals ever look down on as baskets of deplorables telling them how lucky they are to be out of a job because no matter what they are white. Wait, don't all liberals do that? Na, only a dope would seriously make that kind of statement and mean it, like you on conservatives. BTW, you realize I don't fit into that little ideological box or the other either, right? If you do not no matter. Clinton lacks empathy and she took people for granted and that cost her. But yes I acknowledge she has already acquired fame and fortune, the last from the people she pretends to dislike. I'll correct myself and say it was about ego and power, like Trump.

Please pick another unpopular candidate and tell us how we are all stupid if we don't vote for him or her. That should work about as well as this last time. There's not much difference in how either side thinks, just what about. The ideological divide grows ever larger and each side fuels it. So be it.

You observations? Do tell. I'd love to hear all about your observations. I'd say having all your emails hacked and made public and finding no actual evidence of wrongdoing to be pretty surprising, wouldn't you? Or are you going to refuse to admit even still that nothing was found? Never admit you were duped, it's like a conservative law these days. The quote I just showed you explicitly shows you you are full of shit when you try to characterize her and other liberals as looking down on the rust belt as the deplorables. That should be plainly obvious to anyone without conservative reality warping glasses on but I guess you are determined to wear them to your grave. Like I said, no amount of evidence will ever change your mind, because evidence has no effect on you. The day I see it is the day I don't lump you into that ideological box with every other conservative on this board. Clinton lacks empathy...I just showed you a direct quote of her asking Democrats to have that empathy you fucking blind retard. Oh that's right, you don't judge her character by what she says and does, just by these observations you make, lol.

Oh yeah, still didn't answer the questions. That's right. Good boy. Don't let anything like a direct quote shatter your right-wing-fueled characterization of her. You probably didn't even bother to read it. Harder to rationalize it away once you do, but I expect you are up to the task.

 

[zinfamous]

I base my judgements on observation and I have watched Hillary when you no doubt weren't capable of understanding much of anything. I do find the "just like every conservative ever" quite funny. She's your saint, so be it. She can continue going around the rust belts, which all liberals ever look down on as baskets of deplorables telling them how lucky they are to be out of a job because no matter what they are white. Wait, don't all liberals do that? Na, only a dope would seriously make that kind of statement and mean it, like you on conservatives. BTW, you realize I don't fit into that little ideological box or the other either, right? If you do not no matter. Clinton lacks empathy and she took people for granted and that cost her. But yes I acknowledge she has already acquired fame and fortune, the last from the people she pretends to dislike. I'll correct myself and say it was about ego and power, like Trump.

Please pick another unpopular candidate and tell us how we are all stupid if we don't vote for him or her. That should work about as well as this last time. There's not much difference in how either side thinks, just what about. The ideological divide grows ever larger and each side fuels it. So be it.

I'm not excusing Hilary for this, but she clearly was not referring to the rust belters when talking about "the basket of deplorables." That's a completely dishonest misrepresentation of her statement.

Yes--it was a profoundly stupid comment, but considering that you "watched Hilary when [others] were no doubt incapable of understanding much of anything," then you probably would have paid enough attention to that statement to understand who she was talking about. You did, didn't you? Or did you just soundbite it for your convenience?

She was talking about the racist, misogynistic, xenophobic sockpuppets like OroRoaroOOO and others on these forums, and the KKK and Stormfronters like Spidey that came out in DROVES, in public, in no unclear terms, to support this lunatic fascist. She explained that this was not all of his supporters, but they were very much a large part of it (you know, kind of like how it was easy for the deplorables to forgive Trump his "OK, maybe some Mexicans aren't rapists!" comment. Such a winner).

 

[Kazukian]

I'm not excusing Hilary for this, but she clearly was not referring to the rust belters when talking about "the basket of deplorables." That's a completely dishonest misrepresentation of her statement.

Yes--it was a profoundly stupid comment, but considering that you "watched Hilary when [others] were no doubt incapable of understanding much of anything," then you probably would have paid enough attention to that statement to understand who she was talking about. You did, didn't you? Or did you just soundbite it for your convenience?

She was talking about the racist, misogynistic, xenophobic sockpuppets like OroRoaroOOO and others on these forums, and the KKK and Stormfronters like Spidey that came out in DROVES, in public, in no unclear terms, to support this lunatic fascist. She explained that this was not all of his supporters, but they were very much a large part of it (you know, kind of like how it was easy for the deplorables to forgive Trump his "OK, maybe some Mexicans aren't rapists!" comment. Such a winner).

She said 1/2 of Trump supporters were "irredeemable" and a "basket of deplorables" she floated that shit in an earlier speech to a smaller crowd and got away with it.

It was the moment she lost the election, according to her own campaign.

I gotta tell you, calling Trump voters names like you just did gives them more ammo for next time. If you really think there are that many fucked up people in this country, you're disconnected from it. I've worked with the public day in and day out for decades, and I think you're massively exaggerating the percentage of people that fall into those categories.

"Democrats, we accept everyone except people that have different political ideologies."

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You observations? Do tell. I'd love to hear all about your observations. I'd say having all your emails hacked and made public and finding no actual evidence of wrongdoing to be pretty surprising, wouldn't you? Or are you going to refuse to admit even still that nothing was found? Never admit you were duped, it's like a conservative law these days. The quote I just showed you explicitly shows you you are full of shit when you try to characterize her and other liberals as looking down on the rust belt as the deplorables. That should be plainly obvious to anyone without conservative reality warping glasses on but I guess you are determined to wear them to your grave. Like I said, no amount of evidence will ever change your mind, because evidence has no effect on you. The day I see it is the day I don't lump you into that ideological box with every other conservative on this board. Clinton lacks empathy...I just showed you a direct quote of her asking Democrats to have that empathy you fucking blind retard. Oh that's right, you don't judge her character by what she says and does, just by these observations you make, lol.

Oh yeah, still didn't answer the questions. That's right. Good boy. Don't let anything like a direct quote shatter your right-wing-fueled characterization of her. You probably didn't even bother to read it. Harder to rationalize it away once you do, but I expect you are up to the task.

Well you exploded. Oh well no pretense at rationality or civility. At least you are honest. Funny thing though. Why would a Conservative preferentially want Bernie as a first choice among all candidates? Something else for you to choke on.

 

[Atreus21]

This was a great disaster because the American electorate now officially no longer cares about the truth. The implications of this for the future are staggering. It goes way beyond the specific impact of a Trump presidency. We have a president-elect who brazenly lies to the American public on a daily basis, and practically no one even cares. If the American people can disregard such serial lying on the part of a candidate and elected POTUS, then we can be convinced of anything.

I'm afraid the internet has undermined the foundations of democracy. Welcome to online America circa 2016, where facts are like a commodity that we pick and choose based on preference. Don't like what you're reading on the news? Go read fake news instead if it tells you what you want to hear. It's literally one click away. And it doesn't matter who it comes from. Even a hostile foreign power can manipulate the perceptions of Americans. This is how credulous we have become as a result of virulent partisanship. Literally anything is now possible.

Spare me. Until you mentioned Trump by name I might've thought you were talking about Hillary.

You say the entire American electorate no longer cares about the truth. But apparently they did 4 short years ago when they happened to elect a democrat? What on earth could possibly have happened in such a short time? The answer: Obama's coalition wasn't easily replicated. You nominated the most baggage-laden, untrustworthy candidate in history. And the Republicans nominated a moron.

Forced to choose between a moron and a near-criminal, the electorate elects the moron, and then you accuse them of not caring about the truth? No. The fact is you insult them because they elected the moron you didn't want rather than the one you did.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not excusing Hilary for this, but she clearly was not referring to the rust belters when talking about "the basket of deplorables." That's a completely dishonest misrepresentation of her statement.

Yes--it was a profoundly stupid comment, but considering that you "watched Hilary when [others] were no doubt incapable of understanding much of anything," then you probably would have paid enough attention to that statement to understand who she was talking about. You did, didn't you? Or did you just soundbite it for your convenience?

She was talking about the racist, misogynistic, xenophobic sockpuppets like OroRoaroOOO and others on these forums, and the KKK and Stormfronters like Spidey that came out in DROVES, in public, in no unclear terms, to support this lunatic fascist. She explained that this was not all of his supporters, but they were very much a large part of it (you know, kind of like how it was easy for the deplorables to forgive Trump his "OK, maybe some Mexicans aren't rapists!" comment. Such a winner).

Note exactly what I said. Hillary wasn't considering the rust belt people deplorable in here statement. She just couldn't connect with them at any level. Sure she was concerned about the KKK and justly. In fact she was so concerned about them that her energy pretty much skipped over middle America who if people were listening were also concerned about their futures. This is how she lost. Frankly I'm concerned about the wellbeing of the majority as well as minorities. Not divisions but recognizing the fears and concerns of all people in an inclusive manner. Hillary went with identity politics, appealing to her group and Trump his.

Now Hillary pulled a Romney "47 percenter" moment and with no evidence pronounced judgement on a large portion of the voters. Apologizing? For being caught in a stupid moment? Sure I get that but the laughable idea that we take what is offered or we're some shit on a shoe (clearly one rant went in that direction regarding myself) won't win elections.

 

[dank69]

Well you exploded. Oh well no pretense at rationality or civility. At least you are honest. Funny thing though. Why would a Conservative preferentially want Bernie as a first choice among all candidates? Something else for you to choke on.

Yes, I pride myself in my honesty, unlike you who can't answer some simple questions.

 

[Atreus21]

I'm not a historian, but I'm educated.

IMO, the recent POTUS election cycle was a bigger disaster for the USA than:

The Civil War
The Great Depression
Both World Wars
The assasinations of JFK, RFK, MLK II
The dotcom bust
9/11
The failed wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq
The housing bust/Great Recession

IMO, we are in deep doo doo. People don't care what the truth is. Certainly, the president doesn't, that's totally obvious to any honest person.

A good argument for limited government.

 

[sandorski]

Well, since none of the emails showed either the DNC or illary engaging in anything bad, why would their release be an issue at all? Did the russians meddle in our election by releasing hacked emails or was there nothing to be seen in the emails?

Watergate didn't expose anything bad either. Yet Nixon was forced to Resign as a result.

 

[Muse]

They're fucking serious, we've become a nation of fucking self entitled children.

Muse, if I could time travel, I'd drag your ass to a foxhole on a battlefield or into the WTC 1 minute before the first plane hit.

You should be fucking ashamed for ignoring the sacrifices of your fellow human beings.

Dig, motherfucker, you can't time travel. We are here and now, it's 2016, we are about to get a POTUS who is nothing more than The Prevaricator in Chief. Stew in your own juices.

 

[sandorski]

In 4 years we'll know for sure how the Trump Presidency played out. The way it has been developing so far seems to indicate possibly the most Tyrannical US President in history is what we'll have. What the result of that will be is unknown, but even if Congress keeps him in check it will cause much damage to the US Domestically and Abroad.

 

[Muse]

You're an idiot.

I thought to myself, "I am wiser than this man: neither of us knows anything that is really worthwhile, but he thinks he has knowledge when he has not, while I, having no knowledge, do not think that I have. I seem, at any rate, to be a little wiser than he is on this point: I do not think that I know what I do not know." -- Socrates