Good OS roundup article.

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EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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I can't hold a coherent thought? Right...I've never changed my viewpoint throughout the whole discussion.

BTW- That really wasn't a "racial slur", it's more like one of those stereotypes that happens to be a fact. :)

Eric
 

spyordie007

Diamond Member
May 28, 2001
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I wish I were a moderator, than I could lock this thread to put out the flames
rolleye.gif


-Spy
 

HarryAngel

Senior member
Mar 4, 2003
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Originally posted by: Sunner
Looks like the author at least tried to be objective, but as many have already pointed out, he definately lacks some *NIX knowledge.
Too bad, but I still applaud him for trying, objective articles about OS's aren't very common these days.
Sunner wraps it up best.
 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: spyordie007
I wish I were a moderator, than I could lock this thread to put out the flames
rolleye.gif


-Spy

I think the mods cut the OS forums some slack because they realize that troll threads are good stuff in the OS forums, as a matter of fact this EricMartello is a troll of rare quality......
rolleye.gif
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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BTW- That really wasn't a "racial slur", it's more like one of those stereotypes that happens to be a fact

Sort of like you're the stereotypical 12 yr old calling using racial slurs on an Internet forum to make yourself feel big?

I never came in here defending Linux, I pointed out obvious errors in the page you linked to, you're the one that started off attacking Linux in only your 4th sentence in this thread. If you're really surprised that someone read the link and wanted to discuss it you're more far gone than I thought.
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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Simply because the article does not get technical does not make it wrong. To me, the article reflects what most users would experience when using each OS...and because you DISAGREE with the fact that GUI is a better, more efficient interface than CLI does not make the article wrong.

You make retarded statements like that and you expect not to piss people off? haha....Like I said, all that needs to be said about this article has been said...so now I can just laugh at you for continuing your baseless argument. Please, continue...I REALLY care what you think. :)

Eric
 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
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Simply because the article does not get technical does not make it wrong.
I don't see where Nothinman said this...........

To me, the article reflects what most users would experience when using each OS...
Only users who don't RTFM.

and because you DISAGREE with the fact that GUI is a better, more efficient interface than CLI does not make the article wrong.
The only person who is trying to push any points here is you.

You make retarded statements like that and you expect not to piss people off? haha....Like I said, all that needs to be said about this article has been said...so now I can just laugh at you for continuing your baseless argument. Please, continue...I REALLY care what you think.

rolleye.gif
You've already demonstrated your closemindedness enough for us to draw that conclusion on our own :)
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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I don't know a lot of things, but I do know a little bit on operating systems.

Look comparing the numbers of Certs is pretty much useless, exept that it makes for good propaganda. Most certs for linux are based on stuff like programming buffer overflows and things like that, things that COULD cause problems. And patches are usually supplied or the certs are about obsolete versions of services that should of been replaced long ago. If you notice a Cert on windows tends to be more serious because in order for the admin community to become wise to the problem it means that some crackers have broken into servers using those exploits, because hell would freeze over before MS actually admits to a problem, the closest MS would admit to a problem before it becomes a issue is to give out a patch #600438231354 or whatever in the next round of updates. If there is a problem with a common version of Openssh that was release 3 years ago, and it wasn't discovered until the end of this month, You know it's gonna be plastered everywhere by it's own developers if nothing else.

Another reason comparing numbers of Certs is bad is because the nature of developement of a linux OS. There is realy no "native" application that comes with "linux" like there is with Windows. In Linux everything is 3rd party, if you use debian you have something like 4 different ftp servers to choose from, you have 2 ssh servers, you have maybe 3 or 4 different types of webservers etc etc. If you take a look at Redhat, probably less then 3-5% of the code you get from a Redhat distro was actually created by RedHat. So to compare the number of vunerabilities of Windows and Linux accurately you would have to not only compare the stuff that comes on a window's CD, but all 3rd party software that would be COMMONLY used by windows servers. And that's not even fair to Linux or Windows, it's just another reason why numbers of Certs alone is pointless.

Another thing that's bad is how people say that closed source software is more secure is because crackers can examine open sourced code for mistakes and they can't do that with W2k for example. Which is true, exept that in the real world it's not. With open source you have a couple advantages, the major one of course is more "eyes" you have examining a code the better of it will be. OpenBSD is a good example of this. You can actually make it realy hard to crack programs, just by eliminating as many mistakes as possible. Oh, and windows tends to loose it's advantage of closed source, because, well, the codes been leaked. Crackers have the code to actually look over, unlike us law-abiding citizens. Closed source being secure by nature is akin to saying if you make guns illigal it will make it harder to commit gun crime. It actually makes murder/violence/theft/rape (etc..) easier. It just reasures the criminal that their victims will be unarmed, and makes the illigal trafficing of undocumented weapons profitable.

I am not saying that by default the developement of Linux leads to more secure OS. All we have to point to is acendotal and historical evidence that Linux/Unix is generally more secure than Windows. Which is with no doubt, true, by that evidence. Weither it is due to limited numbers of available servers or due to the level of compentance between different types of Admins, it is fairly pointless in that context.


What we really need is a conclusive long-term study. You would need to set up server tests to figure out conclusively.
my example would be:
1. Several box's set up and a prize is sent to whoever cracks it first. You would have to monitor the number of attacks, and the succsess rate. You would have to set up different classes of boxes. Many combinations of the following. Boxes set up to provide a max number of services to the internet, boxes set up to provide domain services and such for lans, but are behind "faulty" firewalls. Set up autonimous systems that are to expect to behave alone in the wild. Set up a infrestructure were you have a "enviroment" based on a network of certain OS's. Set them up as default instalations, installations by a "bad" admin and installations set up by "good" admins. etc etc. Mix and match that sort of thing.

2. Set up honeypots in the wild and don't tell anyone until the study is over and see how people go about trying to comprimise them.


And I realy doubt if anyone is going to do that study, it would be very expensive and no company is THAT sure of it's product to sponsor that sort of thing. It could backfire horribly.

Oh and as far as window's "easy use" nature. It's probably because most admins have been using MS products for at least 5 years or more. Stick a mac user infront of them and laugh at how long it takes them to figure out the left-click thing. If a admin has been using Unix/Linux for for 5 years and you set them in front of a windows interface for a couple days you ain't gonna hear about easy usage at all.

Maybe my grandpa couldn't use Linux, and all he can do double click on the at&t icon to get on the internet in his windows box. However all his computer stories always end up him going "well it froze up and all these windows we open so I just go like this!" He proudly announces as he motions with 2 fingers on his left hand and one finger on his right hand on the table "SO i did that a couple times and the damn thing just went black and blue, So i just kicked at the red light on the power-thingy and did a re-kick". Only damn thing he ever realy learned to do well.
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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See Drag, I can agree with you because I understand where you are coming from. Linux is an OS that requires the user to have a more intimate understanding of his or her computer and how the software interacts with the components. For that reason, most people using Linux in an application that matters, i.e. mission-critical servers, will generally have a more secure box. This relates to what spyordie was saying about how the security of a box depends on the admin.

Since windows is generally easier to setup and use, assuming we start from scratch, you really do not need to know much about your computer to set up a functional server. It's an out-of-box kinda deal...and since so many people can successfully "deploy" a windows box without taking steps to secure it, problems arise. MS is pretty good about patching vulnerabilities. MS may not be the first to toot the horn, but once a 3rd party media source finds a bug, it is plastered all over the place, and if MS does nothing, it makes them look bad.

You can secure any box if you know what you are doing...but there is no such thing as 100% secure. Furthermore, higher security measures generally lead to reduced functionality...so it requires some planning to find the balance between adequate security and useability.

Eric
 

StuckMojo

Golden Member
Oct 28, 1999
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Darwin takes the security and stability of the BSD kernel and melds it with a highly refined GUI.

um...since when? AFAIK darwin is macosX minus aqua...meaning it has no GUI of it's own.

i suppose it can run XFree86...
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
910
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My, it seems like everyone is eager to make a dispute...but they don't wanna take the time to actually know what they are talking about. MacOS X, where the X is referring to the X Windowing system. MacOS X and Darwin both run X. This is all posted on the apple.com/darwin website, free for anyone to read -- which, coincidentally, is linked to from the article itself.

For the lazy ones, this will get you started: http://developer.apple.com/pdf/mactech_darwin.pdf

Eric

Originally posted by: StuckMojo
Darwin takes the security and stability of the BSD kernel and melds it with a highly refined GUI.

um...since when? AFAIK darwin is macosX minus aqua...meaning it has no GUI of it's own.

i suppose it can run XFree86...

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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My, it seems like everyone is eager to make a dispute...but they don't wanna take the time to actually know what they are talking about. MacOS X, where the X is referring to the X Windowing system. MacOS X and Darwin both run X. This is all posted on the apple.com/darwin website, free for anyone to read -- which, coincidentally, is linked to from the article itself.

Sorry, in MacOS X the X means 10 as in the revsion of MacOS after OS 9. Apple recently started packaging XFree86 for MacOS X so that unix apps can run but the native GUI is as far away from X as the GUI on Windows is.
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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Apple refers to MacOS X as MacOS X v10.x...seems a little redundant to me. It could mean 10, but after 9 versions of using standard numbers, switching to roman numerals seems a little odd. You expecting a MacOS XI? I doubt it. Just like Megaman X was not Megaman 10 (even though many people were certain it meant 10), the X was there to indicate a new branch off the original series.

Darwin (the foundation of OS X) has always included X window system, and while Aqua (Apple's GUI) may not have been integrated with the X window system until the current version, it was always present. Apple did not "add" X to MacOS X, they enabled the ability to use X applications from within Aqua by integrating X into Aqua. And they are not "far apart"...in fact, I'd say they're very close. Aqua can be likened to a window manager like KDE or Gnome, but with deeper roots. Plus ALL of these apps are running on the same BSD foundation.

Eric


Originally posted by: Nothinman
My, it seems like everyone is eager to make a dispute...but they don't wanna take the time to actually know what they are talking about. MacOS X, where the X is referring to the X Windowing system. MacOS X and Darwin both run X. This is all posted on the apple.com/darwin website, free for anyone to read -- which, coincidentally, is linked to from the article itself.

Sorry, in MacOS X the X means 10 as in the revsion of MacOS after OS 9. Apple recently started packaging XFree86 for MacOS X so that unix apps can run but the native GUI is as far away from X as the GUI on Windows is.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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All the Apple reps I've talked to insisted it's pronounced "oh-es ten", odd or not apple isn't exactly known for doing things that make sense. That document you linked to says nothing about the GUI, other than the fact that BSD and the POSIX API have no GUI functionality because on most unixes the GUI is seperate from the core OS.

Also, don't you find it strange that Microsoft's versioning scheme for NT goes 4.0->2000->XP->2003? There's no real logic there either.
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
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My chance to throw fuel on the fire.

OS X sucks. For some reason it just makes me "slow". The mouse sensitivity (yes, it can be adjusted) is low, but the GUI just doesn't seem made to be used rapidly. It is pretty and decently stable, but nothing good runs on it and it doesn't run on anything good.

Windows doesn't really suck. It has its quirks. The registry is a mess, and the commandline is crap. The GUI allows you to do stuff very fast (especially when you use its customizability to remove the delays like fade in). It is harder to play around with the guts of the OS because of the registry. It makes a great desktop. Lots of apps, looks nice, fast, easy. NT is designed around mutliple users, stability and security.

Linux sucks. Linux rocks. For a (small - medium) server (I won't say anything about huge systems that I've never used), linux is great. You can strip it down to almost nothing, then add in just the pieces you need, and you have practically infinite control. It also makes a great toy... there is a lot of stuff you can play around with. The plaintext configuration is great, and you don't have to click 15 times down some tree through some cryptic GUIDs to find what you want. It makes a crappy desktop. KDE/Gnome are ugly, skins are ugly, games aren't released as early (if at all), different programs sometimes require different versions of dependencies, #linux-help people are pricks (RTFA u n00b!!!!!). I don't know of any centralized control panel like in windows... but XPde addresses this, and I reall ywant to try it out again.

Gentoo is retarded. Woo! I compileded the prorgam and now it is optamized for my system. I gets lots of control because I have the sorce code, even though I don't know how to program in anything, and I've never heard of C or C++ (although those look like my grades). Also, source code is generally a bigger download than binaries, so to install something requires more load on the server, plus wasted CPU time locally on machines aroudn the world while someone could just compile for, say, the Pentium, P2, P3, P4, K6, Athlon, 486, and distribute those binaries and be done with it.
 

StuckMojo

Golden Member
Oct 28, 1999
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two things:

1) when you run Aqua, you are not running X, (although aqua may allow you to run X applications (i dont actually know)). Aqua is its own separate proprietary animal...and it's pretty cool :)

2) BSD doesn't "include" X exactly...more like the distribution does. the X that runs on BSD is precisely the same X that runs on linux or any other free nixish OS. XFree86 is a completely separate project, which happens to run on a wide variety of OSes, including Darwin.

so i acutally had two questions about the authors statements about Darwin...the "highly refined GUI" he talks about is the same one that's on every other free OS...why is it better when its on darwin?

and lastly, Eric why did you jump all over me? althought i *wanted* to say "hmm...methinks this guy didn't install Darwin before he wrote this..sounds like he ass-u-med Aqua is in it", i didn't. i kept my mouth shut in hopes of lowering the temprature in this thread. I didn't say anything about the CLI vs GUI debate or anything.

hehe...what, did YOU write the article or something? :) relax dood!

 

StuckMojo

Golden Member
Oct 28, 1999
1,069
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ok, just asked someone who runs OS X:

by default, you cannot run X apps in Aqua. there is no compatibility. you have to download an X server from apple, then you can run them. this is very similar to running XWin32 on a windows box...except with the mac the apps are also running locally.

Ah, here's the download:

X11 for Mac OS X Public Beta is an implementation of the X Window System that makes it possible to run X11-based applications in Mac OS X.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/download/
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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Yeah, that's what I said...and if X does mean 10, oh well...it doesn't change the fact that X11 has been integrated with Aqua, and that Darwin includes a GUI.

Anyway, nothing ever beat BeOS.

Eric
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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XFree86 isn't any more integrated on OS X than it is with Windows, you can run it on top of both OS's UIs but you now have 2 UIs running 2 seperate set of apps. Go ahead, get cygwin and the Win32 XFree86 port and see how integrated it is. Or if you actually have a Mac get the XFree86 port for it and try it.

Anyway, nothing ever beat BeOS.

Considering the company died I'd have to say everything beat it. The one time I went to try it, it started in black and white then paniced because of it's poor hardware support. A closed commercial OS needs money to survive, something BeOS never got, thankfully Linux never needed commercial backing to survive and grow.
 

StuckMojo

Golden Member
Oct 28, 1999
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Originally posted by: EricMartello
Yeah, that's what I said...and if X does mean 10, oh well...it doesn't change the fact that X11 has been integrated with Aqua, and that Darwin includes a GUI.

Anyway, nothing ever beat BeOS.

Eric


i give up. you're not even listening anymore.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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hehe that's right there is NO X11 stuff in OS X at ALL! The only thing similar between OS X and X11 is that both gui's run on a unix and have icons with mouse pointers. ANd that's were the similarity ends.

X Windows first and forthmost is a NETWORK protocol. As strange as it may sound it is designed on providing a graphical interface between a client and server machine. It was originally designed in the era of mainframes and terminals. And it has the client and server s**t backwards, too, leading to more brain twists. The server is the terminal you are using, the mouse/keyboard/monitor, the basic human I/O devices. The client is the main computer you are running the actual apps. The client provides the cpu power and memory and harddrives to actually run the programs, the server provides the GUI. You can set up say a bunch of old laptops to be X11 servers and have one, say, sun server with 32 cpu's being the client. You get all the power of that big computer but you can use the old linux laptop to view the actual program. It's just that in Linux land the server and client computer is usually just the same computer. From what I understand X was developed during the late 70's and thru the 80's, which predates most other guis by a large margin. (which is kinda funny, because how can MS copyright "windows", when X windows predates it by many years and MAC's users used things called "windows" when people were thinking DOS was pretty hot stuff.) I am not to hot with timelines though...



Now about the OS X interface called Auqa. This is an entirely different beast. The Auqa interface is made up of the same type of technology as the PDFs you commonly view thru acrobat reader. (they call it a imaging model). So that way as a user you see a seemless blend of windows, anti-aliased everything, translucent bars and other nice little special effects. It's all one big window. This is what gives it it's highly polished look and feel. And they have divided up the whole OS X thing into different levels. Here is the most common terms you'll hearing from time to time.

Auqa - of course the main term for the GUI interface

Java2 - duh java stuff is integrated into MAC

OpenGL - we all know what that is, 3d rendering for games and stuff

Quartz - the actuall pdf-type rendering image. very nice

Classic - the compatability layer to run the older OS 9 and it's apps for backward compatability

Cocoa - I'd guess you call this the main bunch of application programming interface doo-dads for designing apps to run in OS X and use the Auqa interface.

Carbon - About the same as Cocoa to use laymen. It is a more traditional set of interfaces that helps people used to the old OS 9 stuff port applications to run natively in OS X. Thus making it possible to port stuff like photoshop without having to completely redo the rendering engines from the ground up.

Darwin - the BSD-based Unix OS that runs as the underlining layer of the actuall OS.

So ya see that X in Linux and X in OS X is two completely different animals... :)
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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And it has the client and server s**t backwards, too,

It's not really backwards if you think about it, it seems confusing at first but it makes sense.

which is kinda funny, because how can MS copyright "windows", when X windows predates it by many years and MAC's users used things called "windows" when people were thinking DOS was pretty hot stuff.

Because MacOS used windows as a generic term, it wasn't used any the product names, copyrights, trademarks or anything. And X11 isn't X Windows, it's X11, X11R6 (the current release) or just X.

Oh yea and you misspelled Aqua =)