Good OS roundup article.

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EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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Finally, a non-linux zealot who understands that Linux does not have some mighty advantage in the world of CLI. :D

I agree that the fact that this thread turned into an argument is ridiculous. People like what they use, and they think they're the smartest people around because they use command prompt over GUI. Hey, whatever floats your boat people. Don't be callin me an idiot because I like GUI; I do things my way and I am perfectly happy with my Win2K/Apache2 box. Like the article says, use whatever is best for you and don't be making ignorant comments about another OS just because you don't use it, or don't like it. It shows an inability to be unbiased, which already makes your opinion completely useless.

Eric
 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
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Finally, a non-linux zealot who understands that Linux does not have some mighty advantage in the world of CLI. :D

I find it pretty interesting to note that Spyordie did with one post, what you couldn't do with 5. Have you ever considered the fact that *Nix zealots like what they use ;) And further more, as "unbiased" as that article was, I think that its pretty obvious that the reviewer hasn't had extensive experience actually *using* any of the *Nix OSs. Some of those pros and cons really don't add up if you think about it, especially the CLI comments. I'm not exactly a frequent CLI user myself (I am fairly comfortable with it, though) so I tend to use Webmin to change my system's settings instead (IMHO it is the best Linux utility available). I can still change my config files using CLI if I wanted to, but I can also use the GUI when I need something done fast. If you must know, I'm quite sure that most of the posters in this thread are fairly experienced with both types of tools, so you shouldn't really assume that they were uninformed about something, but things did get just a bit heated in this thread. For no particular reason too, considering the fact that CLI or no CLI a good admin is just fine and a bad admin is even worse. :)
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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On systems that can actually have 32 CPUs, there is generally a provision to make CPUs hot-swappable. Having 32 boxes takes up a lot more realestate and will use more electricity, plus it is 32 potential problems...business have more to consider than just idealistic benefits.

I realize that, and my company owns several GS160s, but there are times when having multiple smaller boxes clusters is better than one huge box. Not everything can be done with the box up and rebooting and stopping access for even a minute can be unacceptable in some situations.

Sometimes rewriting code is the only way to progress

I realize that too, the IDE code in Linux is a good example because it's been tossed out in 2.5 in favor of a rewrite becaue it was so hard to maintain. But that doesn't mean all old code needs thrown out every few years.

Take a look at PHP, for example...how often are functions deprecated. PHP code need to be rewrittent for optimal performance. Same with OS code. Yes, I do code in PHP.

I've never used PHP so I wouldn't know, but that sounds like bad design decisions to me. If you're replacing functions regularly you've got issues.

I would say so. They specialize in SMP computing. This place is more of a general interest area with no major expertise in any one segment of computing.

If I told you I was on the 2CPU forums also under a different name would that change your opinion?

Have you checked netcraft lately? I guess Ebay is in a heap of trouble now...what with running their main site on IIS4 and all...but I do feel IIS is not a very secure server. That is why I run apache 2.0 on my box.

Just the fact that you're running IIS doesnt' mean you're in trouble, but it's a lot more hassle to secure and keep up to date.

Highly doubt that one, buddy. It's called VNC. Versions that run on any computer, all fit on a floppy disk. GUI goodness in your shirt pocket

VNC is very bandwidth hungry, I hope you're running an alternate tree like TightVNC.

I can click "connect" and my desktop becomes my remote server desktop. No need to fuss around with command prompt.

And I can type ~10 lines and be done probably before you've got the IIS admin tool up, so?

Hmm...my old webhost had a problem where for some reason I would not be able to delete certain files or folders, even though I was their owner. Oh, this was on a linux box. Never had a problem on windows where i could "never" delete a file.

You have to be the owner of the parent directory to be able to delete files in it, your webhost was probably just ignorant.

The author did not conclude with "Of all these OS, I recommend _____." IT was open ended, such as pick what works best for you.

I know, he tried real hard to be objective. But the fact remains he doesn't know much about unix so his Pros/Cons were basically wrong.

The author's experience level is irrelevant

Hardly. Writing an article about something you don't know anything about is stupid.

.just as you demonstrate a general ignorance to any other OS other than Linux...it really doesn't matter.

I'm not ignorant of Windows, I'm just tired of fighting with it. It's a PITA to work with. I've setup IIS boxes at work and it's not nearly as simple as it is with Apache on Linux.

Let me guess, more hands on experience backing up these statements? Naw...I think you just wanted to contradict me so as not to be outdone.

If you'd talk to my boss, you'd see what I was talking about. He's a huge NetWare zealot, he's pretty much the only reason we still have NetWare servers in our company. Luckily they are technically better than Windows for file/print sharing but that stupid client needed for IP connectivity can cause problems sometimes. Thankfully Novell is on their way to becoming a Linux company =)

Yeah, you'd need to be a bit more dynamic to be able to use more than one type of OS without running into these kinda problems. :\

No, it wasn't even me that ran into the problems it was our Citrix admins. The tool would get confused if the GUI it was supposed to be automating didn't perform exactly as it expected, which makes sense considering it's just simulating keyboard and mouse activity. Nothing beats CLI tools for automation.

If you find linux logical, I could understand how something that actually is logical would seem illogical.

Well documented text files are a lot easier to deal with, again with ssh over a slow connection it's much simpler to make a change and restart a service than it is being forced to use a GUI.

Aw, now you are just denying everything even when it is a blatant fact. You know damn well that Redhat got on the map only because it was so similar to windows, read GUI. Don't even try to say it was for some other reason unless you wanna deem yourself full of crap. Mandrake may be more "windows like", but it was second to redhat. Why does pricewatch still exist when there are other better sites around? BEcause pricewatch was one of the first.

RedHat got on the map because they went public at the right time and got enough business partners to stay alive after things went in the crapper for everyone. I'm not denying that Windows people didn't try it because they saw pretty screenshots, but having IBM and Oracle as business partners was a bigger part of them getting such a major name IMO.

My machine is a P4 2400 with 1GB of ram and a GF4.

My machine is a dual 1.2Ghz Athlon with 1.2G memory and GF3. I have never had any performance issues with Linux or Windows and Linux boots a noticable bit faster.

Linux crashes its fair share of times. Don't be trying to blow that "linux never goes down" BS my way.

The only Linux crashes I experience were from my own mucking around, either messing with kernel patches or running 2.5.x development kernels. Once in a while an application will crash, but they never affect the whole box.

If GDI crashes, you can restart explorer without rebooting.

GDI and Explorer are not the same.

NT was built to be an SMP kernel from the beginning...it is better at SMP than pretty much all open source OSes

NT was also designed on non-Intel hardware, does that mean it runs worse on Intel hardware?

The fact alone that you can't see the NT source to see where all the locks are held in the kernel means you can't say it's better at SMP becaue it's all just user feeling. I know what subsystems hold locks that affect other systems in Linux and if I'm not sure I can open up the source and look.
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: EricMartello
Finally, a non-linux zealot who understands that Linux does not have some mighty advantage in the world of CLI. :D
How much experience do you have with the command line? Are you at all qualified to say this?

I agree that the fact that this thread turned into an argument is ridiculous.
Then you must not have lurked in this forum much before :)

People like what they use, and they think they're the smartest people around because they use command prompt over GUI.
That is perhaps a misinterpretation on your part. People who know the command line well can act big-headed because they feel intelligent, since they know alot. Until you have a good understanding of the intricacies of graphical interfaces vs. text interfaces, and have used both extensively, you are not qualified to make any statement about which is better. That's what I believe you are doing. I'm not going to try to explain how great the command line is to you because 1. I doubt you care to educate yourself 2. Google can explain it better than me anyways.

Hey, whatever floats your boat people. Don't be callin me an idiot because I like GUI; I do things my way and I am perfectly happy with my Win2K/Apache2 box.
Sigh.. you know the saying "ignorance is bliss"? I seriously find myself using that to explain peoples' attitudes about things more and more... People don't care about knowledge, they only care about being happy in their little place in life, but hey, I guess that's novel too. Just don't go spouting your opinion if you feel that way, because you WILL be flamed for being ignorant. You may be happy but you most definitely aren't well informed. Knowledge and happiness unfortunately seem to be somewhat enemies of each other. Look at all of the genius nerds on the net who have the worst attitudes ever.

Like the article says, use whatever is best for you and don't be making ignorant comments about another OS just because you don't use it, or don't like it.
*COUGH*COUGH*

It shows an inability to be unbiased, which already makes your opinion completely useless.
If you think any person is unbiased then you're blind. The only time a person is unbiased is when they're totally ignorant, and then their opinion doesn't matter anyways.
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
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Take a look at PHP, for example...how often are functions deprecated. PHP code need to be rewrittent for optimal performance. Same with OS code. Yes, I do code in PHP.

I've never used PHP so I wouldn't know, but that sounds like bad design decisions to me. If you're replacing functions regularly you've got issues.

Not so much replacing functions but just random other things like the "superglobals" and the somewhat recent register_globals situation, as well as just general syntax variations. For example, it used to be ok to do if($var) do_this(); but now you need to do something like if(isset($var)). Hard to say anyways, I never used php3 so I can't speak for the differences between it and 4. 5 is gonna be a pretty big change too (although the most important changes are probably backend), going totally oop instead of the "oop as an afterthought" that perl also gets beat up for (although same deal, perl 6 will change that).

As far as the design of php, yeah, it's not the greatest by any means. It's funny, you talk to intermediate php programmers and they tell you it's awesome. You talk to the older/wiser/whatever php programmers and they tell you that it's a pretty weak language but it has enough web-related convenient features that it's worthwhile to use even if the syntax and standard library and everything else aren't that great. I actually find that comforting, considering I came to the same conclusion :)
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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Well, I guess the article was good, because at least it provide SOME response. While I cannot say that I agree with the judgemental nature of the people responding, i.e. bashing someone for suggesting that GUI is the way to go, I can understand where they're coming from. The article may not have gotten too in depth, but it looks ot me like the author was trying to reach a broader audience and not appeal to seasoned geeks alone. Too much info can be a bad thing if you are trying to understand unfamiliar territory.

For me, I maintain my stance that GUI is superior to CLI. I can accept that CLI has its place...just not on my box. :) I have used both, and I will not go back to CLI if I don't have to. I am really looking forward to seeing Darwin ported to the x86 platform...looks like something that both sides of the camp could like. I didn't even know about it till I read that article.

PEACE!

Eric
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
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Originally posted by: EricMartello
For me, I maintain my stance that GUI is superior to CLI.
And the GUI is superior to the CLI exactly how? Because your personal opinion is that it is so? You don't seem to admit that the CLI could ever have any advantages. Some UNIX guys say that GUIs never have any advantages. Of course, if you ask my mom (who types up stuff in MS Word and checks her email in Outlook XP for a few minutes each day), she'd tell you that the GUI (specifically the Windows GUI) is best, because it's easy to learn. I (and many others) would say that the CLI is most convenient for remote administration over slow connections (Terminal Services feels sluggish even over my 100mbit/sec ethernet network, but SSH is just as fast as if I were in an xterm on my Linux server across the room), as well as many other things (better scriptability with default tools, etc.).
I can accept that CLI has its place...just not on my box. :) I have used both, and I will not go back to CLI if I don't have to.
That's fine. Each person can have their own opinions, but what do you think gives you the authority to say that the GUI is superior to the CLI in all situations?
I am really looking forward to seeing Darwin ported to the x86 platform...looks like something that both sides of the camp could like. I didn't even know about it till I read that article.
Darwin has been ported to x86. The MacOS X user interface that everybody loves (Aqua, IIRC) will not be ported, at least not anytime soon, and especially not if Apple is able to use IBM's new 64 bit PowerPC processors so they don't have to switch to x86-64.
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
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And the GUI is superior to the CLI exactly how? Because your personal opinion is that it is so? You don't seem to admit that the CLI could ever have any advantages. Some UNIX guys say that GUIs never have any advantages. Of course, if you ask my mom (who types up stuff in MS Word and checks her email in Outlook XP for a few minutes each day), she'd tell you that the GUI (specifically the Windows GUI) is best, because it's easy to learn. I (and many others) would say that the CLI is most convenient for remote administration over slow connections (Terminal Services feels sluggish even over my 100mbit/sec ethernet network, but SSH is just as fast as if I were in an xterm on my Linux server across the room), as well as many other things (better scriptability with default tools, etc.).

Dude, it's over. All that needs to be said has been said. Read the thread...you will see that you're not exactly introducing anything new or worthwhile here.

Eric
 

smthmlk

Senior member
Apr 19, 2003
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"My machine is a P4 2400 with 1GB of ram and a GF4. I don't think it is super fast, but it is not slow. Linux crashes its fair share of times. Don't be trying to blow that "linux never goes down" BS my way."

amd xp1700 asus a7v333 768 pc2100 crucial gf3 ti200 running redhat 9... has not crashed yet. X hasnt even crashed. linux is more stable than windows, i really cant imagine arguing otherwise.

-smoothmilk
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
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Originally posted by: EricMartello
Dude, it's over. All that needs to be said has been said. Read the thread...you will see that you're not exactly introducing anything new or worthwhile here.

Eric
Unlike you, I still maintain that each has its advantages, and I will use either where appropriate.
rolleye.gif


And yes, I did quickly read over the thread. Apparently I missed something (or at least you want me to think I missed the supposed hard facts that back up your position).
 

igiveup

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2001
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Windows CLI would have solved your problem just as well as any *Nix CLI with a "del /f", you really didnt have to go through the trouble of rebooting in safe mode.

Thats the problem. It DIDN'T, it wouldn't and it couldn't. A del /? will give you all the command line flags for that program as well as erase, which I looked hard at. At the end of the day, only the reboot into safe mode worked. I am telling you, I tried. That is my point. I wish it was that easy.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Windows CLI would have solved your problem just as well as any *Nix CLI with a "del /f", you really didnt have to go through the trouble of rebooting in safe mode.

igiveup is correct, the /f switch to del only affects the DOS read-only bit. Windows won't let you delete a file that is currently open()'d by a process unless you end that process first, it's a stupid limitation and really should be removed.
 

igiveup

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2001
1,066
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AMEN!!! Somebody else feels my pain!! Ok, back to earth now. Its like that damn file has been teasing me this whole week.

Its ok, I have issues, I am dealing with them.... :D

What really gets me about this is that the error message doesn't tell you what the parent process is.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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What really gets me about this is that the error message doesn't tell you what the parent process is.

Technically it could be more than one and if it's mmap()'d instead of just open()'d it could take a noticable amount of time to find out what process owns the file.

See if filemon helps you out, the sad thing is it's usually explorer that has the file open trying to do a preview in that stupid web view.
 

igiveup

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2001
1,066
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Grumble... Its enough to make you insane. :confused:

Note to self: Take extended vacation, forget cellphone in airplane. Pick up some Celantro at the grocery store.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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Luckily for me I rarely have to touch Windows any more. My only real Windows usage is via Citrix for Outlook and our IS ticket system, when I find a problem there I just complain to the Citrix admins =)
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Luckily for me I rarely have to touch Windows any more. My only real Windows usage is via Citrix for Outlook and our IS ticket system, when I find a problem there I just complain to the Citrix admins =)
Lucky you...

My parents refuse to use Linux (my dad thinks IE is where it's at, and I'm too dumb and too unlucky to be able to set up WINE), and I have some Windows-only programs that I must use, so that means that I am forced to have two Windows boxen at home. Now I just need to get 3 Linux boxen and then I'll be able to say that the majority of my systems run Linux. ;)
 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: jliechty
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Luckily for me I rarely have to touch Windows any more. My only real Windows usage is via Citrix for Outlook and our IS ticket system, when I find a problem there I just complain to the Citrix admins =)
Lucky you...

My parents refuse to use Linux (my dad thinks IE is where it's at, and I'm too dumb and too unlucky to be able to set up WINE), and I have some Windows-only programs that I must use, so that means that I am forced to have two Windows boxen at home. Now I just need to get 3 Linux boxen and then I'll be able to say that the majority of my systems run Linux. ;)

Dumb??? Unlucky??? Heh, in that case your in good company because I haven't been able to get IE running using WINE either, and I've put more time into fiddling around with WINE than I care to remember :p.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Looks like the author at least tried to be objective, but as many have already pointed out, he definately lacks some *NIX knowledge.
Too bad, but I still applaud him for trying, objective articles about OS's aren't very common these days.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
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You know ... it's not so much that a GUI interface is less capable (although generally I think that is true). It's more that I hate having to pick up the mouse and go through the menus to open an application, or pick through the task-bar to find an already open one. Especially for trivial stuff like file management, making tar archives, searching or comparing files, minor edits, etc. Stuff drives me nuts when I have to use windows (which is thankfully rare). For complicated stuff that I don't do often, I'll still pop open a GUI if a good one is available. And even there, if I expect to do it more then a few times, I start learning the CLI ... working on that for CD burning right now because I want to be able to script it.

As for the stability issue ... I've seen Linux crash but not lately. I haven't even seen an X crash in recent memory. More specifically, at work I run a "corporate standard desktop", 3 other guys in the immediate vicinity run an identical system (except mine now has a additional PCI video card and different hard-drives). They have stability issues and other problems on a regular basis running the corporate Win2k image. They tend to get re-imaged every few months to keep down the bitrot. Mine never crashes running RedHat, and I typically run a wider variety of stuff and harder then these guys. Are our IT guys are incompetent? Maybe. But they've got the full resources of a IT department for a fair sized corporation behind them vs. me, an average Linux user with no formal training.

On a different tack regarding the stability issue. I work with beowulf clusters running Linux. It's one thing for the odd desktop to stay up well, it's another for a 16 node cluster to stay up indefinitely (double digit months, interupted only for non-technical reasons and a few hardware failures) under constant heavy and varied loads. A box running linux is like power or water ... it's just there. You take it for granted. That's never been my experience with windows.

And finally on PHP. I use it occasionally. It's pretty cool. But it's up up to version 4.something and it still feels like a crufty hack. Always good to get back to a real language after mucking around in PHP for awhile :D
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: EricMartello
In business, favorites don't exist -- it's what works best that counts.

Hasn't been my experience. Very often it's the preference of the people in control that wins out, unless their preference is so far out of the grey area as to be untenable.

An example ... our company has a fairly large cluster ... > 120 CPUs and growing. It runs a BSD. Almost all clusters run Linux, it's almost a defacto standard. But the guy in charge of this effort is a core developer for BSD, so he picked his preference. Now for this application, it's likely a wash ... it's built run and administered in-house so it's no skin off our back that most cluster vendors don't support BSD. I think Linux SMP may be a bit better then BSD, but that's hearsay on my part. But my point is that I don't think that BSD was really chosen for raw technical merit but rather because of the preference of the implementor. And that's legitimate, because it's what he knows best, and the choice is roughly between equals. If he had chosen Windows it would be a whole different story because in the area of computational clusters, Windows isn't even close.

 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Heheh, that's right in business you actually see quite a bit emotion controlling decisions. Many times you will have to base your choices on nothing more than your own prejudices. That's also why larger companies can end up being much more wasteful inefficient than smaller ones, bad decisions stand out and raises are given based on the time of year, so unless you are sure of yourself it's scary to make decisions, if your wrong you are remembered in a bad way... That's were you got sayings like "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM", now it's MS is what everybody uses so its the 'safe' bet.

The more I learn about business the more I realise that it is just a big-boy(women) club. "You have to work for a living, right? Can't just sit there and be bored and poor all day. Might as well at least TRY to get rich! Better than working for 7-11." Lots of pissiness, lots of attitude and pressure from big egos. That's why you play golf and stuff, you can compete with your rival at a game that calls for skill and percision. Put's you in a good mind set, a zen thing, to talk shop, and gives the animal insticts a outlet. You spend your time trying to con your opponate, while looking for a little white thing in a big green thing. Once you find it then you hit it really hard, the better you hit it the farther it goes. etc etc

Otherwise why the hell would MS spend so much money on filling up all computer magazines with ads? and what is there theme? A single person in a feild of strife, if you use MS products your safe, in control in a enviroment that is out of your control, nobody is pissed off, nobody is breathing down your neck. Nobody is noticing you...
bad way to get rich, but a good way to avoid getting fired, they are aiming for the bureaucrats not the techs... Most techs don't realy read those computer magazines a whole lot, they are mostly just adds and ass-kissing behavior. But bureaucrats that don't know better and want to know about the systems that are in reality kinda intimidating. What midlevel manager likes asking a person half their age about something they don't know about, but yet need to make decisions about? It's even probably to the tech's advantage to just lie thru the teeth about everything, it's not like the poor bureaucrat will be able to tell the difference. But with MS, they are in control, easy auditing, foriegn force of microsoft techs at their greasy little finger tips to ask questions to and double check on their underlings. hehe
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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A quick, decent article on Windows 2003 Server: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2133899,00.html

In it they admit that the registry locking is a problem and was pulled apart to make the locking finer grained for better performance on bigger SMP systems. Since basically everything uses the registry this can cause major scalability issues, but again since we don't have the source we have no idea how bad the locking is or how good it is in Win2K3.

But the best quote of all is probably : We created the SMB file server specs, and we didn't have the fastest one around, which was embarrassing.