Barnaby W. Füi
Elite Member
I was JUST reading that 🙂
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Good OS roundup article.
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EricMartello
Senior member
spyordie007
Diamond Member
These are interesting articles, thanks!
-Spy
Nothinman
Elite Member
A site called "VB RAD" doesn't like Linux, go figure. And on top of it all he's confused:
Problem #1: It's not a problem, he just doesn't understand it. The NTFS RPM provided requires no recompiling of anything, just install it and you're done.
Problem #2: It's a manufacturer problem, if the manufacturer of the video card doesn't write X drives you can't blame the X team. nVidia and ATI both release drivers that are as good or better than their Win32 counter parts.
Problem #3: This one's partly right, but it's mostly a Gnome/KDE issue and not Linux. There is hotplug support in Linux and it can do basically anything in insert/removal of devices because it's so generic and scriptable.
It's a double-edged sword. Most of the problem with Windows are because of all the components interdependencies, one thing breaks and the whole system goes to sh!tter.
It all boils down to how you use your computer, for me most times Windows sucks for what I want to do. Linux is just easier for me 99% of the time. I can almost always find a free Linux program to do exactly what I want, usually I have to pirate or pay for the win32 equivalent and the win32 one is usually lower quality IME.
As for the ZDNet article, any box is only as vulnerable as the person running it. I've had a Linux box exposed to the Internet for 5 years now and havn't had a single break-in.
Problem #1: It's not a problem, he just doesn't understand it. The NTFS RPM provided requires no recompiling of anything, just install it and you're done.
Problem #2: It's a manufacturer problem, if the manufacturer of the video card doesn't write X drives you can't blame the X team. nVidia and ATI both release drivers that are as good or better than their Win32 counter parts.
Problem #3: This one's partly right, but it's mostly a Gnome/KDE issue and not Linux. There is hotplug support in Linux and it can do basically anything in insert/removal of devices because it's so generic and scriptable.
It's a double-edged sword. Most of the problem with Windows are because of all the components interdependencies, one thing breaks and the whole system goes to sh!tter.
It all boils down to how you use your computer, for me most times Windows sucks for what I want to do. Linux is just easier for me 99% of the time. I can almost always find a free Linux program to do exactly what I want, usually I have to pirate or pay for the win32 equivalent and the win32 one is usually lower quality IME.
As for the ZDNet article, any box is only as vulnerable as the person running it. I've had a Linux box exposed to the Internet for 5 years now and havn't had a single break-in.
spyordie007
Diamond Member
I think the "VB RAD" article does a decent job conveying the problems that "end users" face when they try out Linux. Just because he isn?t technically correct doesn?t mean that an end user is going to care who writes the drivers, or who's fault it is, or what process it requires for such and such to work.
Granted there are plenty of end-users who can easily handle this type of stuff and in the process get themselves a great Linux desktop, the problem is that they don?t want to.
I'm also pretty tired of the constant security waste-of-my-time babble, Windows 2K/XP/2003 *can be* secure, Linux/Unix/OS-X/BSD/ETC *can be* secure, it's just a question of competent and diligent people running them. You can have a great home security system, but if you don?t bother taking the time to lock the door and every single window a burglar can still get it; the biggest problem now is just that people to forget (or dont bother) to lock the window on the side of the house...
-Spy
Granted there are plenty of end-users who can easily handle this type of stuff and in the process get themselves a great Linux desktop, the problem is that they don?t want to.
I'm also pretty tired of the constant security waste-of-my-time babble, Windows 2K/XP/2003 *can be* secure, Linux/Unix/OS-X/BSD/ETC *can be* secure, it's just a question of competent and diligent people running them. You can have a great home security system, but if you don?t bother taking the time to lock the door and every single window a burglar can still get it; the biggest problem now is just that people to forget (or dont bother) to lock the window on the side of the house...
-Spy
EricMartello
Senior member
Hey idiot, shut up.
As always, you miss the point. You linked to articles about Windows, as if that somehow adds credibility to your challenged perspective. The point is you can dig up articles that go either way about anything with a simple search of google. If you want to jack off to Linux, go over to linuxworld or something. The VBRad article make a good point about the lack of standardization and, more importantly, lack of integration...strangely familiar to the original link I posted. Don't be trying to present Linux as some flawless OS, or "the least flawed" OS out there, because it is not, and is far from being mainstream, despite its desperate attempts. A simple search of these forums will indicate countless posts of people trying to get simple things that we take for granted in Windows to work right in linux...things like installing a GeForce driver, or getting Quake 3 to work. Don't see to many people asking how to do either under Windows...wonder why? Windows = practicle; Linux = Eccentric.
It seems people who use Linux and like it, blindly fault every other OS in order to make themselves feel better about their misguided choice. Hey, if your OS is so good, it's "quality" should speak for itself. You mean it doesn't!? Oh yeah, quality is an upgrade proposed for a future kernel release...for now, we'll just stick with a bunch of incoherent, outdated text-based programs which can be accessed though a glorified command line interpereter (aka the Linux kernel)...a throwback to the days of the vacuum tube, but hey, THAT Is innovation according to the Linux development teams.
It never ceases to amaze me how most Windows admins and users are level-headed, and can accept that Linux and its dated structure still has a place among todays OSes...yet Linux supporters feel the need to self-affirm their choice in OSes as being the best, and attack anyone who chooses another OS. I love the idiot who said something to the effect of, "People these days just want to use their computers, and they do not want to learn how to use them..." Who'd of thought!?! NO WAY!!! People actually want to USE their computers rather than messing around with them, trying to get them to work the way they're supposed to? Yeah, ALL PEOPLE should know the intricate details of the car they drive -- if they don't now how their car works, then they shouldn't be driving. That's Linux logic for ya.
Slanted views, misinformation and a total lack of practicality -- your everyday Linux admin/user.
Eric
As always, you miss the point. You linked to articles about Windows, as if that somehow adds credibility to your challenged perspective. The point is you can dig up articles that go either way about anything with a simple search of google. If you want to jack off to Linux, go over to linuxworld or something. The VBRad article make a good point about the lack of standardization and, more importantly, lack of integration...strangely familiar to the original link I posted. Don't be trying to present Linux as some flawless OS, or "the least flawed" OS out there, because it is not, and is far from being mainstream, despite its desperate attempts. A simple search of these forums will indicate countless posts of people trying to get simple things that we take for granted in Windows to work right in linux...things like installing a GeForce driver, or getting Quake 3 to work. Don't see to many people asking how to do either under Windows...wonder why? Windows = practicle; Linux = Eccentric.
It seems people who use Linux and like it, blindly fault every other OS in order to make themselves feel better about their misguided choice. Hey, if your OS is so good, it's "quality" should speak for itself. You mean it doesn't!? Oh yeah, quality is an upgrade proposed for a future kernel release...for now, we'll just stick with a bunch of incoherent, outdated text-based programs which can be accessed though a glorified command line interpereter (aka the Linux kernel)...a throwback to the days of the vacuum tube, but hey, THAT Is innovation according to the Linux development teams.
It never ceases to amaze me how most Windows admins and users are level-headed, and can accept that Linux and its dated structure still has a place among todays OSes...yet Linux supporters feel the need to self-affirm their choice in OSes as being the best, and attack anyone who chooses another OS. I love the idiot who said something to the effect of, "People these days just want to use their computers, and they do not want to learn how to use them..." Who'd of thought!?! NO WAY!!! People actually want to USE their computers rather than messing around with them, trying to get them to work the way they're supposed to? Yeah, ALL PEOPLE should know the intricate details of the car they drive -- if they don't now how their car works, then they shouldn't be driving. That's Linux logic for ya.
Slanted views, misinformation and a total lack of practicality -- your everyday Linux admin/user.
Eric
spyordie007
Diamond Member
Mudfliging will not be tolerated, everyone gets their own opinion and there is no need to call names just because they dont agree with you.
There is no need to argue which is better, I just got flamed the other day in OT because I said that I like driving my VW and some dumb Jack@ss kids seem to think that's not okay. Nothinman says he likes "driving" Linux, we spend most of our time "driving" Windows and just because he doesnt agree with us doesnt make him an idiot.
-Spy
Goosemaster
Lifer
Practicality does not define effectiveness. Just because your OS is easy to use does not make you a better admin. People will chose different things, but the key is to respect both OS's for what they can do. And as for being slanted, I think that some peoples view are slanted, but ON BOTH SIDES. From the different admins I have met through the years, the good ones did not use linux or Windows. They chose what did the job it most adaquate fashion possible whatever it was...novell even.
And if your a good admin that is all that matters. Unfortunately, the windows crowd gets a bad rap for being bumbling idiots when it comes to something not easily accessible via the nearest dialog box...why you ask? (Obviously there are tons of good admins out there.)
....because you have to know what you're doing to administrate a linux/unix box. Unfortunately I have not met any bad linux admins....yet
Goosemaster
Lifer
oh yeah,
linux is not the most uhem 'user friendly' os for the desktop.
It still requires some knowledge to run it.
Too bad people are wanting to learn less and less and do not get to appreciate it for what it is. A very nice piece of software.
linux is not the most uhem 'user friendly' os for the desktop.
It still requires some knowledge to run it.
Too bad people are wanting to learn less and less and do not get to appreciate it for what it is. A very nice piece of software.
Nothinman
Elite Member
I realize that and I never said Linux was ready for 'anyone' to install. But IMO neither is Windows either. I've seen so many people break Windows is so many different ways it's amazing. If a knowledgable person setup the Linux box for that person it would be just as usable as pre-loaded Windows and it would be harder for the user to break.
Getting defensive and deperate, I see.
No I didn't, I just don't care.
If you wanna get technical about it my article was an interview with a real MS employee, you linked an articled by some nobody who thinks VB is "rad". There's a difference.
Actually I've already been there, not this year though, and it was a really great time.
And he's right. And it just happens Linux has more embedded marketshare than Windows, so more and more people are using Linux without ever knowing it and that's how it should be. The OS should be invisible, something you can't do with Windows very well.
I personally hardly ever have to touch my system's setup, it's been running for >4 years and unless I add or remove hardware it just keeps working. Unlike Windows where I ended up fixing something atleast once a week.
You'd be surprised how much misinformation you just typed about Linux.
spyordie007
Diamond Member
If a knowledgable person setup the Windows box for that person it would be more usable than pre-loaded linux and harder for the user to break. If a knowledgable person setup a Windows box and a Linux box and put them side by side both of them would be just as usable, the end user would have a hell of a time breaking either of them but the end user would still want to use the Windows box, not because it's better but because of some stupid and entirely unrelated personal bias such as a "better" version of solitare or something equally retarded.
No point in flinging mud back at him, I hate flame wars :|
I couldnt help but to laugh at this, it really does leave a big black mark on his credibility... 😀
People these days just want to drive their cars, they dont want to learn how to use them. My wife would still rather I drove an hour to change her tire and not because she cant do it herself but just because she doesnt want to, and because I do it "so much better" (or so I've been told)
That really depends on how you define "embedded marketshare", that figure generally doesnt include stuff that I would such as the thousands of POS machines out there that are still running on NT 4.
this doesnt really have to be here, but I would like to use this opportunity to point out my above comment
I've done the same thing with windows systems. The problem with both these statements is that neither of us are your average user.
EVERYONE PLEASE TRY AND REMEMBER
In the "this OS is better than that" argument there is never a *truely correct* answer, you can generally find something that will work good in a specific situation (IE Web Server) but with blanket statements there are just a lot of wrong answers.
-Spy
spyordie007
Diamond Member
Let's all just stop posting and let this thread die, what were we here to talk about again anyways?
-Spy
Nothinman
Elite Member
I do too, I'm just bored waiting for 5 so I can leave work. But he really is getting defensinve then accusing me of being the zealot, I find it pretty funny.
Any machine running Windows is instantly a POS =)
But seriously, there's a ton of POS machines running OS/2 and DOS also, when it's time to upgrade it'll probably be influenced more by political or emotional reasoning than technical, atleast that's how most things go.
I realize that, but he seems to think that Linux users have to recompile their kernel every time they install an app. My current install has survived 3 motherboards, 1 storage system change( IDE->SCSI migration) and countless other less important upgrades, something Windows still has a hard time doing.
Barnaby W. Füi
Elite Member
Ah yes, always fun to see people resort to personal insults when they fail to hold up an argument 🙂
Barnaby W. Füi
Elite Member
Damn boy, you so smart wit dem big words!
Yep. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink.
This is the OS forum, not the windows forum. People can discuss/promote/defend whatever they want here. If anyone should be leaving it should be you. People like Nothinman are what make this forum worthwhile, people like you just... well.. you are providing entertainment 😉
Everyone knows it lacks "integration". The US government has plenty of problems but one of its greatest strengths is in the fact that (ideally anyways) power is distributed amongst different parts, those parts intercommunicate but they aren't completely integrated. This gives flexibility and robustness.
I don't think ANYONE here was saying that linux is mainstream. Some people have defended it for the reasons that they like it. No one has said "linux is great for everything and everyone and windows is completely useless as of right this second".
Despite what's desperate attempts? Go read the LKML and see how badly linux is trying to defeat windows.
Not sure what a practicle is, but linux (unix) takes time to learn. It is for advanced users, developers, and administrators. It is not for your grandma, and it is not easily learned within an extremely short amount of time. However, once you do learn it, you will have immense power over your system. That is something that you will never have in windows.
Geez, you're just a troll. You are so horridly misinformed that it's dissapointing.
Like I said, unix is for advanced users, developers, and administrators. It is not for casual users. If you are a casual user, use windows or mac os. Better yet, if you're a casual user, don't waste your time bothering informed people with FUD here in the OS forum. Go away, you do nothing but misinform and annoy.
Right. Go log into your ftp server through terminal services to click a checkbox and tell me about practicality.
How do people form views like yours? Honestly. I may not like windows, but I have much better things to do than sit around all day bashing windows users. You bored or somethin? There is always ATOT.
No YOU shut up!!
Nyah Nyah
Ok seriously folks ... when did Linux NTFS support get stable enough to not be considered a REALLY bad idea?
It hasn't been implemented in Linux earlier because it is a proprietary MS format with no documentation and a nasty habit of changing unpredictably.
Nyah Nyah
Ok seriously folks ... when did Linux NTFS support get stable enough to not be considered a REALLY bad idea?
It hasn't been implemented in Linux earlier because it is a proprietary MS format with no documentation and a nasty habit of changing unpredictably.
Barnaby W. Füi
Elite Member
It's loonix's fault! They should just make it work!!!!
spyordie007
Diamond Member
Linux Sucks!
<-- Ducks quickly 😀
<-- Ducks quickly 😀
EricMartello
Senior member
No, I am not getting deperate. I said all I had to say. I am just getting tired of having seeing the same regurgitated posts about Linux show up in a thread that was simply an FYI. My whole point all along is that people should use what they feel most comfortable using. To say, "Just because windows is easier to use doesn't make you a better admin" is really a contradiction -- if it is easier to use, and thus you know how to do more or do not need assistance in getting things done, OF COURSE you can admin a windows box better than Linux...and vice versa.
Nothinman: Staying true to his namesake, came along and decided to turn this into some Linux is better than windows debate, imposing CLI over GUI and making uninformed statements about the everyday operation of Windows.
Bingbongshlong token chinese guy: Sure he agrees with the majority; you cannot be asian and hold an individual viewpoint. It's unheard of.
People who never used linux, but think it is cool because it is not MS: If you need an OS to define who you are, you cannot be further from being "cool".
People who just read the thread and say nothing: Thank you for recognizing that I was just providing information, and not looking to defend my choice of OSes. 🙂
Eric
Nothinman: Staying true to his namesake, came along and decided to turn this into some Linux is better than windows debate, imposing CLI over GUI and making uninformed statements about the everyday operation of Windows.
Bingbongshlong token chinese guy: Sure he agrees with the majority; you cannot be asian and hold an individual viewpoint. It's unheard of.
People who never used linux, but think it is cool because it is not MS: If you need an OS to define who you are, you cannot be further from being "cool".
People who just read the thread and say nothing: Thank you for recognizing that I was just providing information, and not looking to defend my choice of OSes. 🙂
Eric
You couldn't hold a coherent thought in your head before, then you started with name calling and have now sunk to the level of making racial slurs on the basis of screen names?
I think you should just STFU and go crawl back under you're bridge.
Being a troll was bad enough, now your just an asshole.
Goodbye
I think you should just STFU and go crawl back under you're bridge.
Being a troll was bad enough, now your just an asshole.
Goodbye
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