GM shuts down truck plants, considers cancelling Hummer

[Arkaign]

Taurus X seats 6-7, and gets 24mpg, that's a start towards replacing those monstrosities.

I get that SUVs serve a purpose for some people, and that purpose should hopefully be applied more judiciously in the future. 4x4 SUVs allow for decent off-road performance while carrying a larger than normal amount of people and/or cargo.

Don't go offroad? Get a minivan or decently designed wagon/crossover. You'll generally carry the same # of people, get better fuel economy, have cheaper insurance, have higher safety ratings, and turn/stop better.

It's high time the SUV fad faded into an embarrassing footnote in US auto history.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Your an idiot Snatchface.

Big Oil as you call it has never controlled out vehicle choices. In fact, Big Oil has never made vehicles.

Sorry to rain on your emotionally charged parade with facts.

Exactly, people who think Big Oil ran the car industries are idiots and have no concept of markets.

I guess now I'll have to buy two cars for my 6 person family. Let's see:

On SUV fitting 6 - 18MPG on average
two mid-size cars fitting 4 each - 25 mpg on average

Which is the better deal for my family, the environment and gas usage? I'm not betting on the cars.

yup, people tend to forget how much per person carried. a single person driving a prius around alone gets beat by a mother driving an suv with children.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

yup, people tend to forget how much per person carried. a single person driving a prius around alone gets beat by a mother driving an suv with children.

See my previous post on why this is incorrect most of the time for the owners of these vehicles even when their families are that large.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Your an idiot Snatchface.

Big Oil as you call it has never controlled out vehicle choices. In fact, Big Oil has never made vehicles.

Sorry to rain on your emotionally charged parade with facts.

Exactly, people who think Big Oil ran the car industries are idiots and have no concept of markets.

I guess now I'll have to buy two cars for my 6 person family. Let's see:

On SUV fitting 6 - 18MPG on average
two mid-size cars fitting 4 each - 25 mpg on average

Which is the better deal for my family, the environment and gas usage? I'm not betting on the cars.

There did used to be 8 passenger station wagons, but they just weren't cool 🙂

Who couldn't love that faux wood paneling on the outside. Plus sitting in the seatless back area was one of the coolest things you could do as a kid.

noo what was even better was the last row was backwords. so you were looking out that huge rear window. We would sit back t here with the window down hanging out the window makeing faces at the other driver.

or throwing stuff out it.

LOL man thats crazy now but it was a lot of fun

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here 🙁

BINGO. See my post above.

The tech exists, right now, today. All that was needed was to lift it from Europe and apply it here.

You can thank the hippy clean air bullshit for blocking it.

What's wrong with wanting clean air? 😕

You like breathing smog?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

There did used to be 8 passenger station wagons, but they just weren't cool 🙂

Who couldn't love that faux wood paneling on the outside. Plus sitting in the seatless back area was one of the coolest things you could do as a kid.

My friend's '78 Olds Wagon did have a rear seat, but didn't have faux wood paneling.

...then again, I've seen PT Cruisers with the faux wood paneling. And I always did have fun as a kid in the back of the Jimmy when we were allowed to (very very rarely). Most cross-over SUVs really are just tall wagons anyways.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here 🙁

BINGO. See my post above.

The tech exists, right now, today. All that was needed was to lift it from Europe and apply it here.

You can thank the hippy clean air bullshit for blocking it.

What's wrong with wanting clean air? 😕

You like breathing smog?

Hell yeah, I go to the drag strip to get pre-processed air! And just look at how many people aren't happy with their smoking options and are trying to legalize marijuana.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

The American People think they control what they want, but as corporate psychological manipulation (brainwashing) which was pioneered by Edward Bernays has proven most people can be steered toward buying decisions that are beneficial to the corporations in the short term even if those same decisions are detrimental to them and the customer in the long term.

Century of Self

The business and, increasingly, the political world uses PR to read and fulfill our desires, to make their products or speeches as pleasing as possible to us. Curtis raises the question of the intentions and roots of this fact. Where once the political process was about engaging people's rational, conscious minds, as well as facilitating their needs as a society, the documentary shows how by employing the tactics of psychoanalysis, politicians appeal to irrational, primitive impulses that have little apparent bearing on issues outside of the narrow self-interest of a consumer population. He cites a Wall Street banker as saying "We must shift America from a needs- to a desires-culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed. [...] <<<Man's desires must overshadow his needs."

yea i wouldn't start quoting curtis. he pulls off the slickly produced documentaries, but he's nothing more than a high grade conspiracy nut that sees high powered boogie men everywhere when you break it down. people want new things, we are a species that desires more which is what pushed our evolution. no corporate boogie man required. sure sometimes this gets distorting into wanting "more" curb stomping your fellow man into the forced conformity of denial in cultures such as communism ..but people have desires regardless.

 

[lokiju]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here 🙁

Diesel cost anywhere from .50 to 1.00 more then reg. gas. So even with better milage it does nto save money, let alone the upfront cost as well.

Diesel here in N.VA is almost $5 a gallon at 2 places near me. Reg gas was $4.07 at the same gas station and $3.81 at costco.

The average passenger car milage in 2004 was 27. Lets call it a nice round 30.

A Jetta TDi can get 50 (I've seen reports of well over 60).

30 mpg, $3.81 / gallon = 0.13 cents per mile.
50 mpg, $5.00 / gallon = 0.10 cents per mile.

Doesnt save money??

2005 Volkswagen Jetta Gas

2005 Volkswagen Jetta Diesel

Lets not go making stuff up now.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Taurus X seats 6-7, and gets 24mpg, that's a start towards replacing those monstrosities.

I get that SUVs serve a purpose for some people, and that purpose should hopefully be applied more judiciously in the future. 4x4 SUVs allow for decent off-road performance while carrying a larger than normal amount of people and/or cargo.

Don't go offroad? Get a minivan or decently designed wagon/crossover. You'll generally carry the same # of people, get better fuel economy, have cheaper insurance, have higher safety ratings, and turn/stop better.

It's high time the SUV fad faded into an embarrassing footnote in US auto history.

First off let me preface that I don't even own an SUV. I also don't argue that vans get slightly better gas mileage (2-4 mpg on average). What I detest, though, are these folks that believe there is no served purpose with having the choice of an SUV or any vehicle (should we ban lambos, ferraris and the like). The purpose does not need to be justified, either. If it's a purpose in one man's mind, then so be it. I don't think it's up to you, an envirowacko or the government to justify what is necessary for me to own and drive. If the market decides that, then fine, but the OP masks his own desires to regulate vehicle production with the the markets decision and that rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: lokiju

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here 🙁

Diesel cost anywhere from .50 to 1.00 more then reg. gas. So even with better milage it does nto save money, let alone the upfront cost as well.

Diesel here in N.VA is almost $5 a gallon at 2 places near me. Reg gas was $4.07 at the same gas station and $3.81 at costco.

The average passenger car milage in 2004 was 27. Lets call it a nice round 30.

A Jetta TDi can get 50 (I've seen reports of well over 60).

30 mpg, $3.81 / gallon = 0.13 cents per mile.
50 mpg, $5.00 / gallon = 0.10 cents per mile.

Doesnt save money??

2005 Volkswagen Jetta Gas

2005 Volkswagen Jetta Diesel

Lets not go making stuff up now.

22-24 vs. 35 (new EPA combined) sounds about the same ratio.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: lokiju

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here 🙁

Diesel cost anywhere from .50 to 1.00 more then reg. gas. So even with better milage it does nto save money, let alone the upfront cost as well.

Diesel here in N.VA is almost $5 a gallon at 2 places near me. Reg gas was $4.07 at the same gas station and $3.81 at costco.

The average passenger car milage in 2004 was 27. Lets call it a nice round 30.

A Jetta TDi can get 50 (I've seen reports of well over 60).

30 mpg, $3.81 / gallon = 0.13 cents per mile.
50 mpg, $5.00 / gallon = 0.10 cents per mile.

Doesnt save money??

2005 Volkswagen Jetta Gas

2005 Volkswagen Jetta Diesel

Lets not go making stuff up now.

Since your links don't work, here are the stats:

VW Jetta Gas (manual transmission): 21/31 city/highway
VW Jetta Diesel (manual transmission): 30/41 city/highway

31 mpg, $3.81/gallon = 12 cents per mile
41 mpg, $5.00/gallon = 12 cents per mile

 

[Chunkee]

all of you and your responses are stupid...

you guys really think the capitalism mantra can be outdone? big oil, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, savings and loans...etc will always find a way to stick it to you... UNLESS...consumers stick together, boycott environmentally hazardous decisions on fabrication, poor health care choices, and embezzlement frauds...nothing will change..

unless the American idiot wakes up, and quits thinking that cable, smokes and beer is the be all end all...then the sheeple will always be led to slaughter and the eradication of the middle class will continue as the cost of inflation for goods and services will be up your ass and your wage as the fat rich bastards laugh and laugh....

the laws and structure of the economy are set to benefit those in power... you have to really come together to bring about change...

now...quit stroking your idiot egos thinking you know the answer to it all, when it is actually quite simple. YOU WANT YOUR BMWs...YOU WANT your FIOS internet...YOU WANT cheap as groceries ....well...you got it...you just never fucking thought far enough ahead like most asshats to realize that long term consequences actually catch up to you and environment.

what the hell did most of you go to college for...?

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
If you think cars can be engineered, developed, tested, and put into production in a month, start an auto manufacturer.

...I'll be looking to buy one of your $10,000 150MPG cars in July.

Why did GM kill the EV1? It's was expensive as hell! The CARB originally targeted that 10% of an auto manufacturer's fleet would be a ZEV in 2008, however GM was the ONLY company that actually got one to market in any way shape or form. It was largely unsuccessful.

As far as diesels go, I'm a big fan of them. The problem there is that the tree huggers have been trying to ban them for so long to get clean air that diesel cars are virtually impossible to make for the US, and until recently, the sulfur content in the fuel wasn't helping matters. Don't blame oil for that, blame your law makers and the "green" lobbiests. The same ones that pushed MTBE to be put in gas.

Dude, THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS! There IS no engineering involved, there IS no development, no testing and no production lead times.

Hell, if you *really* wanted you could buy one of these in Europe and ship it here.

But as you said, its the tree huggers. If you re-read my posts I agree with you 100%. All we had to do was lift the tech from Europe and apply it here. As for sulfer, the lower sulfer takes more refining so its mroe expensive. Keep the sulfer and your fine as it also helps with libricosity (sp?).

Oh well. Fucking tree huggers and consumers who dont care. You get what we have today.

sure the tech exists....in ur freakin mind😛
beyond conspiracy theories the technology didn't exist at the time of the ev1. toyota is having enough trouble getting just a few miles worth of battery power into their current hybrids. and no, europe doesn't have some magical technology they are keeping from the rest of the world😛 give me a break. europe sells plenty of cars in the us. nothings stopping them.

Have you heard of the Tesla Roadster? They've built like 50 of the extended ranger, all electric sports cars now. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, nearly 300 miles on a charge...rawr.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: CPA
First off let me preface that I don't even own an SUV. I also don't argue that vans get slightly better gas mileage (2-4 mpg on average). What I detest, though, are these folks that believe there is no served purpose with having the choice of an SUV or any vehicle (should we ban lambos, ferraris and the like). The purpose does not need to be justified, either. If it's a purpose in one man's mind, then so be it. I don't think it's up to you, an envirowacko or the government to justify what is necessary for me to own and drive. If the market decides that, then fine, but the OP masks his own desires to regulate vehicle production with the the markets decision and that rubs me the wrong way.

All I was saying was that people complaining about the lack of what they can see as an ideal car often comes from their past and present choices. People are concerned with what image a car portrays more than anything else.

For example, how many people here would buy an Aztek? ...anyone? ...exactly.

As far as sitting 6, my '91 Grand Prix did because it had a pair of bench seats. But people wanted buckets and center consoles. So they made them that way instead. Car manufacturers have to produce cars that people will actually buy, because if they don't they don't stay car manufacturers for very long.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
instead of allowing big oil to control our vehicle choices

big oil never controlled our vehicle choices.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Chunkee
all of you and your responses are stupid...

you guys really think the capitalism mantra can be outdone? big oil, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, savings and loans...etc will always find a way to stick it to you... UNLESS...consumers stick together, boycott environmentally hazardous decisions on fabrication, poor health care choices, and embezzlement frauds...nothing will change..

unless the American idiot wakes up, and quits thinking that cable, smokes and beer is the be all end all...then the sheeple will always be led to slaughter and the eradication of the middle class will continue as the cost of inflation for goods and services will be up your ass and your wage as the fat rich bastards laugh and laugh....

the laws and structure of the economy are set to benefit those in power... you have to really come together to bring about change...

now...quit stroking your idiot egos thinking you know the answer to it all, when it is actually quite simple. YOU WANT YOUR BMWs...YOU WANT your FIOS internet...YOU WANT cheap as groceries ....well...you got it...you just never fucking thought far enough ahead like most asshats to realize that long term consequences actually catch up to you and environment.

what the hell did most of you go to college for...?

:thumbsup::laugh: Best rant I've read in quite a while.

9/10

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
If you think cars can be engineered, developed, tested, and put into production in a month, start an auto manufacturer.

...I'll be looking to buy one of your $10,000 150MPG cars in July.

Why did GM kill the EV1? It's was expensive as hell! The CARB originally targeted that 10% of an auto manufacturer's fleet would be a ZEV in 2008, however GM was the ONLY company that actually got one to market in any way shape or form. It was largely unsuccessful.

As far as diesels go, I'm a big fan of them. The problem there is that the tree huggers have been trying to ban them for so long to get clean air that diesel cars are virtually impossible to make for the US, and until recently, the sulfur content in the fuel wasn't helping matters. Don't blame oil for that, blame your law makers and the "green" lobbiests. The same ones that pushed MTBE to be put in gas.

Dude, THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS! There IS no engineering involved, there IS no development, no testing and no production lead times.

Hell, if you *really* wanted you could buy one of these in Europe and ship it here.

But as you said, its the tree huggers. If you re-read my posts I agree with you 100%. All we had to do was lift the tech from Europe and apply it here. As for sulfer, the lower sulfer takes more refining so its mroe expensive. Keep the sulfer and your fine as it also helps with libricosity (sp?).

Oh well. Fucking tree huggers and consumers who dont care. You get what we have today.

sure the tech exists....in ur freakin mind😛
beyond conspiracy theories the technology didn't exist at the time of the ev1. toyota is having enough trouble getting just a few miles worth of battery power into their current hybrids. and no, europe doesn't have some magical technology they are keeping from the rest of the world😛 give me a break. europe sells plenty of cars in the us. nothings stopping them.

Have you heard of the Tesla Roadster? They've built like 50 of the extended ranger, all electric sports cars now. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, nearly 300 miles on a charge...rawr.

Of course, it only seats two and costs $100k.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Have you heard of the Tesla Roadster? They've built like 50 of the extended ranger, all electric sports cars now. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, nearly 300 miles on a charge...rawr.

Of course, it only seats two and costs $100k.

and they can't get a transmission that works properly

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: TruePaige
Have you heard of the Tesla Roadster? They've built like 50 of the extended ranger, all electric sports cars now. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, nearly 300 miles on a charge...rawr.

But it took them how long to get there? About 5 years for a limited production, and they cost about how much compared to an Elise?

You gotta pay for the upsides one way or another. I'm not saying it's a bad car in any way, just that you need to make other compromises. 🙂

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
If you think cars can be engineered, developed, tested, and put into production in a month, start an auto manufacturer.

...I'll be looking to buy one of your $10,000 150MPG cars in July.

Why did GM kill the EV1? It's was expensive as hell! The CARB originally targeted that 10% of an auto manufacturer's fleet would be a ZEV in 2008, however GM was the ONLY company that actually got one to market in any way shape or form. It was largely unsuccessful.

As far as diesels go, I'm a big fan of them. The problem there is that the tree huggers have been trying to ban them for so long to get clean air that diesel cars are virtually impossible to make for the US, and until recently, the sulfur content in the fuel wasn't helping matters. Don't blame oil for that, blame your law makers and the "green" lobbiests. The same ones that pushed MTBE to be put in gas.

Dude, THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS! There IS no engineering involved, there IS no development, no testing and no production lead times.

Hell, if you *really* wanted you could buy one of these in Europe and ship it here.

But as you said, its the tree huggers. If you re-read my posts I agree with you 100%. All we had to do was lift the tech from Europe and apply it here. As for sulfer, the lower sulfer takes more refining so its mroe expensive. Keep the sulfer and your fine as it also helps with libricosity (sp?).

Oh well. Fucking tree huggers and consumers who dont care. You get what we have today.

sure the tech exists....in ur freakin mind😛
beyond conspiracy theories the technology didn't exist at the time of the ev1. toyota is having enough trouble getting just a few miles worth of battery power into their current hybrids. and no, europe doesn't have some magical technology they are keeping from the rest of the world😛 give me a break. europe sells plenty of cars in the us. nothings stopping them.

Have you heard of the Tesla Roadster? They've built like 50 of the extended ranger, all electric sports cars now. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, nearly 300 miles on a charge...rawr.

tesla roadster. 10 years on from ev1 and its still not out yet. and not anywhere near viable pricing for regular market, it is a rich mans toy because they know thats all the tech could support at this point. whats actually sold for a reasonable price? pos like the zap zebra. and btw the teslas range is only a bit over 200 miles, not 300.

you can also power a house off the grid these days with solar and a battery bank you know. but what does it really mean for most people when its ridiculously expensive😛 with enough money you can buy your toys and feel good. having tech and having affordable tech are two completely separate things. you can also buy a 100 foot yacht. the tech exists to make them, but well, most of us won't have one ever so it means little.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Originally posted by: Chunkee
what the hell did most of you go to college for...?

:beer: and chicks?

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
If you think cars can be engineered, developed, tested, and put into production in a month, start an auto manufacturer.

...I'll be looking to buy one of your $10,000 150MPG cars in July.

Why did GM kill the EV1? It's was expensive as hell! The CARB originally targeted that 10% of an auto manufacturer's fleet would be a ZEV in 2008, however GM was the ONLY company that actually got one to market in any way shape or form. It was largely unsuccessful.

As far as diesels go, I'm a big fan of them. The problem there is that the tree huggers have been trying to ban them for so long to get clean air that diesel cars are virtually impossible to make for the US, and until recently, the sulfur content in the fuel wasn't helping matters. Don't blame oil for that, blame your law makers and the "green" lobbiests. The same ones that pushed MTBE to be put in gas.

Dude, THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS! There IS no engineering involved, there IS no development, no testing and no production lead times.

Hell, if you *really* wanted you could buy one of these in Europe and ship it here.

But as you said, its the tree huggers. If you re-read my posts I agree with you 100%. All we had to do was lift the tech from Europe and apply it here. As for sulfer, the lower sulfer takes more refining so its mroe expensive. Keep the sulfer and your fine as it also helps with libricosity (sp?).

Oh well. Fucking tree huggers and consumers who dont care. You get what we have today.

sure the tech exists....in ur freakin mind😛
beyond conspiracy theories the technology didn't exist at the time of the ev1. toyota is having enough trouble getting just a few miles worth of battery power into their current hybrids. and no, europe doesn't have some magical technology they are keeping from the rest of the world😛 give me a break. europe sells plenty of cars in the us. nothings stopping them.

Have you heard of the Tesla Roadster? They've built like 50 of the extended ranger, all electric sports cars now. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, nearly 300 miles on a charge...rawr.

tesla roadster. 10 years on from ev1 and its still not out yet. and not anywhere near viable pricing for regular market, it is a rich mans toy because they know thats all the tech could support at this point. whats actually sold for a reasonable price? pos like the zap zebra. and btw the teslas range is only a bit over 200 miles, not 300.

It is out. 0.o

I've seen photos of them driving around California, and the company claims to have shipped about 50 models.

They just made a new, more efficent, more powerful transmission they said they will retrofit onto 41 existing cars, and are putting them into all the cars under construction currently.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: TruePaige
Have you heard of the Tesla Roadster? They've built like 50 of the extended ranger, all electric sports cars now. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, nearly 300 miles on a charge...rawr.

But it took them how long to get there? About 5 years for a limited production, and they cost about how much compared to an Elise?

You gotta pay for the upsides one way or another. I'm not saying it's a bad car in any way, just that you need to make other compromises. 🙂

I can understand that..I just think if they can do such a highly tuned, powerful machine like that..

...and considering the EV1 was an AMAZING acheivement for the time...got great range and had good batteries in the 90's...

That today it is completely feasible to make a working man's electric car.

 

[Gunslinger08]

I love people who think they know what's best for everyone else.