GM shuts down truck plants, considers cancelling Hummer

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0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
The old tranny wasn't botched, it worked fine, but wasn't very smooth, so they are retro-fitting it with a new tranny.

it wore out very quickly. didn't you read?


The whole issue there is something I think all electric car manufacturers will come to find, that a single-gear tranny is best.

who cares. tranny tech is hardly the main problem for ev.


So the fact that it went from you saying that none shipped, to me showing from your own article that they've sold out constantly any that they offer is proof that it was never viable. 0.o

not my point. people like you point to tesla as proof that ev were viable a decade ago. a decade on and they deliver a delayed rich mans toy. thats all you need to know. you can't prove viability of a regular priced ev with a luxury toy. with enough money one could build a space shuttle, a space station even. but it means nothing about the viability of a common person being able to afford such technology.


The savings in maintenance costs alone with an electric car is amazing, these are easily better deals than a car priced $20,000 below them in price, I'd say that about most electric cars.

assumption.

This is the high end, like a lambo for normal cars, cheaper ones can be made that work well, it's been done before, several times over.

this is the high end because they had no choice. as i said, not everything scales so easily.


Hell a ton of companies have prototypes and pricing facts if you just look them up.

yea some are even scams.
a little more for you to read
http://www.wired.com/cars/futu...gazine/16-04/ff_zapped

Aptera Motor Corp. for example

The PROBLEM is that the big companies, that can get huge pricing discounts, and push the market, REFUSE to produce these highly viable, powerful electric cars.

Instead Chevy is going to wait till 2010, put out the Piece of CRAP that is the Chevy Volt (it's WORSE than the EV1, over 10 years later!?) and then claim no one wants an electric car.

back to conspiracy theories. its a free market. if gm drags its feet on obvious tech someone will curb stomp them. and the idea that gm is a technological powerhouse leader today is a bit laughable anyways. the idea that zomg if gm doesn't do it, no one else can is just bizarre. gm is a sh*t company.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Taurus X seats 6-7, and gets 24mpg, that's a start towards replacing those monstrosities.

I get that SUVs serve a purpose for some people, and that purpose should hopefully be applied more judiciously in the future. 4x4 SUVs allow for decent off-road performance while carrying a larger than normal amount of people and/or cargo.

Don't go offroad? Get a minivan or decently designed wagon/crossover. You'll generally carry the same # of people, get better fuel economy, have cheaper insurance, have higher safety ratings, and turn/stop better.

It's high time the SUV fad faded into an embarrassing footnote in US auto history.

First off let me preface that I don't even own an SUV. I also don't argue that vans get slightly better gas mileage (2-4 mpg on average). What I detest, though, are these folks that believe there is no served purpose with having the choice of an SUV or any vehicle (should we ban lambos, ferraris and the like). The purpose does not need to be justified, either. If it's a purpose in one man's mind, then so be it. I don't think it's up to you, an envirowacko or the government to justify what is necessary for me to own and drive. If the market decides that, then fine, but the OP masks his own desires to regulate vehicle production with the the markets decision and that rubs me the wrong way.

Yeah, I don't advocate banning SUVs, I just observe that it's a 'fad' that has gone on uncomfortably long. High fuel prices are bad for our economy, as the extra $$ going into tanks and into Dubai/etc is $$ that doesn't get recirculated in our domestic economy at any significant rate.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
So what is GM's profit margin on small vehicles now? I assume they still can't be selling them at a loss if they're planning a move like this. Truck and SUV sales are pretty much only money makers.
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here :(

BINGO. See my post above.

The tech exists, right now, today. All that was needed was to lift it from Europe and apply it here.

You can thank the hippy clean air bullshit for blocking it.


That clean air is for us Liberal queers and the clean-lunged, right?
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
The old tranny wasn't botched, it worked fine, but wasn't very smooth, so they are retro-fitting it with a new tranny.

it wore out very quickly. didn't you read?


The whole issue there is something I think all electric car manufacturers will come to find, that a single-gear tranny is best.

who cares. tranny tech is hardly the main problem for ev.


So the fact that it went from you saying that none shipped, to me showing from your own article that they've sold out constantly any that they offer is proof that it was never viable. 0.o

not my point. people like you point to tesla as proof that ev were viable a decade ago. a decade on and they deliver a delayed rich mans toy. thats all you need to know. you can't prove viability of a regular priced ev with a luxury toy. with enough money one could build a space shuttle, a space station even. but it means nothing about the viability of a common person being able to afford such technology.


The savings in maintenance costs alone with an electric car is amazing, these are easily better deals than a car priced $20,000 below them in price, I'd say that about most electric cars.

assumption.

This is the high end, like a lambo for normal cars, cheaper ones can be made that work well, it's been done before, several times over.

this is the high end because they had no choice. as i said, not everything scales so easily.


Hell a ton of companies have prototypes and pricing facts if you just look them up.

yea some are even scams.
a little more for you to read
http://www.wired.com/cars/futu...gazine/16-04/ff_zapped

Aptera Motor Corp. for example

The PROBLEM is that the big companies, that can get huge pricing discounts, and push the market, REFUSE to produce these highly viable, powerful electric cars.

Instead Chevy is going to wait till 2010, put out the Piece of CRAP that is the Chevy Volt (it's WORSE than the EV1, over 10 years later!?) and then claim no one wants an electric car.

back to conspiracy theories. its a free market. if gm drags its feet on obvious tech someone will curb stomp them. and the idea that gm is a technological powerhouse leader today is a bit laughable anyways. the idea that zomg if gm doesn't do it, no one else can is just bizarre. gm is a sh*t company.

Sure, this doesn't scale as easily as gas powered vehicles, but it does scale to some extent, you probably won't see one under 20k though soon.

Also, I'm not saying GM is some technological powerhouse. But they have size. We live in an economy of scale, if you buy a million battery packs, it comes out much cheaper than 500 or so that Tesla buys.

Also as far as a common person car goes, you didn't really address the Aptera. It may not be in full blown production right now like the Tesla, but if nothing else it's a proof of concept for an affordable electric car.

http://www.aptera.com/

Look at their site, they have done a lot of working on this car, and Popular Mechanics has taken it for a test drive, the books for the company aren't too bad from what I gleam, they think they can turn a reasonable profit on selling the car at 26k to 29k each.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Ktulu
So what is GM's profit margin on small vehicles now? I assume they still can't be selling them at a loss if they're planning a move like this. Truck and SUV sales are pretty much only money makers.

Well, taking advantage of gullible people is certainly something.

I remember seriously lol'ing in the early 90's at the beginning of the SUV craze.

I went and looked at a Ranger V6 at a Ford dealer, nice little truck, was like $14k or something, pretty loaded. Parked right next to it, with the same exact drivetrain, was a Ford Explorer, on the same chassis. Take $14k truck, place rear enclosure over it, one extra row of seating, some windows, bingo, it's now $28k. 100% markup for a few bits of metal and glass. Genius.

Pretty much the same story with the Suburban. ~$15k V8 truck becomes $35k V8 SUV, with the same minimal treatment. Please let me know where $20k goes in the pursuit of a rear enclosure?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
Originally posted by: preslove

Intelligent planning requires executives to look down the road in order to innovate. Had GM continued to work on its electric vehicles, taking short term losses, they would be in an extremely advantageous position. What did the idiot executives do? They pulled their electronic vehicles and built more SUVs for short term profit and long term fail.

The current oil price shocks didn't take anyone who was actually paying attention to the supply/demand numbers by surprise. Peak oil is upon us, and smart planning by Honda and Toyota have put them in position to clean up, while short cited idiocy has put GM even further behind.

GM has been betting on hydrogen for a long long time now. so, yeah, short "cited" [sic] idiocy for trying to move into the future rather than a stop-gap hybrid system that could be put together in very short order once the battery tech caught up.

and i don't know if you've paid any attention over the last decade, but if it weren't for SUVs and trucks, GM would probably be out of business. what's more short "cited" [sic]: running the company into the ground and going out of business because you weren't doing enough to keep your head above water, or surviving to fight another day?
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: Linux23
These auto manufacturers are fvcking stupid. Gas prices has been going up steadily for the past few years, and they still keep introducing big fvcking SUV's??? These are CEO's that make these decisions, yet the little guy suffers when they lose their jobs.

We have the technology, so give people the choice to buy electric only vehicles now regardless of the range. My commute is only 3 miles to the subway. I could bike if I wanted to, but I live in a bad area, so i'm not going to risk my life to save a few bucks.

Why do we have to wait until 2010 to get an all electric vehicle? What have they been doing for the past 5 years? Planning for more big SUV's?:roll:

It takes time to engineer, test, get approvals, re-tool plants, etc...

Plus gas prices really only stated to rise steadily in 2005 and onward, not like GM or Ford wanted to dump billions into these projects only to have prices drop and be caught pissing into the wind.

What planet are you from? Gas prices have been going up for about 5 years now. People are taking more notice now because a 20% jump from $3.20 is $3.85. Not like the jumps of 20% from $1.50 to $1.80 that we saw several years ago. people didn't care about 30 cents, but now that it is 80 cents they take notice. Stupid Americans.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
As an added in lil' note...GM also has the technology already developed for this:

EV1 parallel hybrid

The parallel hybrid variant featured a de-stroked 1.3 L turbocharged DTI diesel engine (Isuzu Circle L), delivering 75 hp, installed in the trunk along with an additional 6.5 hp DC motor/generator; the two motors drove the rear wheels through an electronically controlled transaxle. When combined with the AC induction motor which powered the front wheels, all three power units delivered a total output of 219 hp, accelerating the car to 0-60 mph (96.6 km/h) in 7 seconds. A single tank of diesel fuel could keep the car running for 550 miles with a fuel economy of 80 mpg.[citation needed]

A similar technology is used in the 2005 Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid concept.



So they can choke to death on their lil' GM Volt piece of crap. They can give an all electric car, or a hybrid that doesn't stink...but they give neither.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,125
30,076
146
Of course we have choice in what we buy.

However, the traditional American attitude of "bigger, faster, stronger" has always played very well with our long history of inappropriately low gas prices. The ave. American has never had the incentive to alter their choices when such choices were not the huge burden that they currently are. I don't blame big oil, of course, but it's more of a failure on our end to regulate gas prices at a responsible level. I understand the need to keep prices low to keep our oil-driven economy running, but I don't think gas prices for consumers need to be as cheap as they have been.

Europeans have demanded smaller, more fuel-efficient cars for decades. Why? Freaking expensive gas.

What the hell took us so long? oh yeah, freaking "expensive" gas.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Ktulu
So what is GM's profit margin on small vehicles now? I assume they still can't be selling them at a loss if they're planning a move like this. Truck and SUV sales are pretty much only money makers.

Well, taking advantage of gullible people is certainly something.

I remember seriously lol'ing in the early 90's at the beginning of the SUV craze.

I went and looked at a Ranger V6 at a Ford dealer, nice little truck, was like $14k or something, pretty loaded. Parked right next to it, with the same exact drivetrain, was a Ford Explorer, on the same chassis. Take $14k truck, place rear enclosure over it, one extra row of seating, some windows, bingo, it's now $28k. 100% markup for a few bits of metal and glass. Genius.

Pretty much the same story with the Suburban. ~$15k V8 truck becomes $35k V8 SUV, with the same minimal treatment. Please let me know where $20k goes in the pursuit of a rear enclosure?

I can only imagine they plan to stop producing only as many trucks as they project will not be sold in the years to come as to not lose more money from the cost of manufacturing them.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here :(
It's not just the smoking that makes lung cancer the leading cancer in Europe. The soot looks like $h!t too.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: TruePaige
As an added in lil' note...GM also has the technology already developed for this:

EV1 parallel hybrid

The parallel hybrid variant featured a de-stroked 1.3 L turbocharged DTI diesel engine (Isuzu Circle L), delivering 75 hp, installed in the trunk along with an additional 6.5 hp DC motor/generator; the two motors drove the rear wheels through an electronically controlled transaxle. When combined with the AC induction motor which powered the front wheels, all three power units delivered a total output of 219 hp, accelerating the car to 0-60 mph (96.6 km/h) in 7 seconds. A single tank of diesel fuel could keep the car running for 550 miles with a fuel economy of 80 mpg.[citation needed]

A similar technology is used in the 2005 Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid concept.



So they can choke to death on their lil' GM Volt piece of crap. They can give an all electric car, or a hybrid that doesn't stink...but they give neither.

You seriously believe that GM has not looked at every option they have available too them. Closing 4 truck plants is a move of desperation and not something that is taken lightly. If what you say is truly a viable option GM would be working on implementing it. But these days it doesn't look like GM is taking any chances so I'm gonna go with believing that GM engineers might slightly more than you regarding this technology.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: TruePaige
As an added in lil' note...GM also has the technology already developed for this:

EV1 parallel hybrid

The parallel hybrid variant featured a de-stroked 1.3 L turbocharged DTI diesel engine (Isuzu Circle L), delivering 75 hp, installed in the trunk along with an additional 6.5 hp DC motor/generator; the two motors drove the rear wheels through an electronically controlled transaxle. When combined with the AC induction motor which powered the front wheels, all three power units delivered a total output of 219 hp, accelerating the car to 0-60 mph (96.6 km/h) in 7 seconds. A single tank of diesel fuel could keep the car running for 550 miles with a fuel economy of 80 mpg.[citation needed]

A similar technology is used in the 2005 Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid concept.



So they can choke to death on their lil' GM Volt piece of crap. They can give an all electric car, or a hybrid that doesn't stink...but they give neither.

You seriously believe that GM has not looked at every option they have available too them. Closing 4 truck plants is a move of desperation and not something that is taken lightly. If what you say is truly a viable option GM would be working on implementing it. But these days it doesn't look like GM is taking any chances so I'm gonna go with believing that GM engineers night slightly more than you regarding this technology.

Ah blind faith against the possibility that something could be done better, that's nice. ;)

You don't think big companies make stupid moves? Look at Microsoft, they can throw billions and billions at an operating system, and not make it run any better than one from years ago.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: Linux23
These auto manufacturers are fvcking stupid. Gas prices has been going up steadily for the past few years, and they still keep introducing big fvcking SUV's??? These are CEO's that make these decisions, yet the little guy suffers when they lose their jobs.

We have the technology, so give people the choice to buy electric only vehicles now regardless of the range. My commute is only 3 miles to the subway. I could bike if I wanted to, but I live in a bad area, so i'm not going to risk my life to save a few bucks.

Why do we have to wait until 2010 to get an all electric vehicle? What have they been doing for the past 5 years? Planning for more big SUV's?:roll:

It takes time to engineer, test, get approvals, re-tool plants, etc...

Plus gas prices really only stated to rise steadily in 2005 and onward, not like GM or Ford wanted to dump billions into these projects only to have prices drop and be caught pissing into the wind.

What planet are you from? Gas prices have been going up for about 5 years now. People are taking more notice now because a 20% jump from $3.20 is $3.85. Not like the jumps of 20% from $1.50 to $1.80 that we saw several years ago. people didn't care about 30 cents, but now that it is 80 cents they take notice. Stupid Americans.

Average joe:
First 20% to $1.80: Woah, nasty spike, it'll probably go down.
Second 20% to $2.20: WTF? This sucks.
Third 20% to $2.70: I gotta start cutting my budget
Fourth 20% to $3.30: I need to drive slower try something else, look into a more fuel efficient car next time.
Fifth 20% to $4.10: We need something MUCH more fuel efficient!

Trucker:
First 20% to $1.80: Woah, nasty spike, it'll probably go down.
Second 20% to $2.20: WTF? There goes my profit.
Third 20% to $2.70: I need to raise rates or something, try asking congress to look into it.
Fourth 20% to $3.30: There goes my savings.
Fifth 20% to $4.10: There goes my livelihood.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: Anubis
i wish we had europes diesels over here :(
It's not just the smoking that makes lung cancer the leading cancer in Europe. The soot looks like $h!t too.

wtf is snoot?
I don't know? your moronic ass typed it.. I put SOOT, it's a word located in the dictionary.

 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,520
3,229
136
I live not too far from the Moraine plant. I'm OK with it closing. Never did care for any sort of SUV or truck.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
Originally posted by: Linux23
These auto manufacturers are fvcking stupid. Gas prices has been going up steadily for the past few years, and they still keep introducing big fvcking SUV's??? These are CEO's that make these decisions, yet the little guy suffers when they lose their jobs.

We have the technology, so give people the choice to buy electric only vehicles now regardless of the range. My commute is only 3 miles to the subway. I could bike if I wanted to, but I live in a bad area, so i'm not going to risk my life to save a few bucks.

Why do we have to wait until 2010 to get an all electric vehicle? What have they been doing for the past 5 years? Planning for more big SUV's?:roll:

Umm...actually Toyota is the only manufacturer to roll out large SUV's and trucks lately (Land Cruiser, Sequoia, Tundra)...while it is has been a couple of years since GM rolled theirs out...and you have to remember that a vehicle is in design for several years before being introduced to market. So it was at least 5 years ago when GM made the decision to come out with a new version of the Tahoe and Yukon..and people were still buying huge SUV's in droves. Try thinking through what you're saying before you post.

And yeah...GM should build a car just for your 3 mile walk. That's a fantastic business decision....cause making you happy will cure all problems. Do you honestly think a car can be made in minutes and pass all government regulations and market demands? Again...think before you post.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: Linux23
These auto manufacturers are fvcking stupid. Gas prices has been going up steadily for the past few years, and they still keep introducing big fvcking SUV's??? These are CEO's that make these decisions, yet the little guy suffers when they lose their jobs.

We have the technology, so give people the choice to buy electric only vehicles now regardless of the range. My commute is only 3 miles to the subway. I could bike if I wanted to, but I live in a bad area, so i'm not going to risk my life to save a few bucks.

Why do we have to wait until 2010 to get an all electric vehicle? What have they been doing for the past 5 years? Planning for more big SUV's?:roll:

It takes time to engineer, test, get approvals, re-tool plants, etc...

Plus gas prices really only stated to rise steadily in 2005 and onward, not like GM or Ford wanted to dump billions into these projects only to have prices drop and be caught pissing into the wind.

What planet are you from? Gas prices have been going up for about 5 years now. People are taking more notice now because a 20% jump from $3.20 is $3.85. Not like the jumps of 20% from $1.50 to $1.80 that we saw several years ago. people didn't care about 30 cents, but now that it is 80 cents they take notice. Stupid Americans.

Average joe:
First 20% to $1.80: Woah, nasty spike, it'll probably go down.
Second 20% to $2.20: WTF? This sucks.
Third 20% to $2.70: I gotta start cutting my budget
Fourth 20% to $3.30: I need to drive slower try something else, look into a more fuel efficient car next time.
Fifth 20% to $4.10: We need something MUCH more fuel efficient!

Trucker:
First 20% to $1.80: Woah, nasty spike, it'll probably go down.
Second 20% to $2.20: WTF? There goes my profit.
Third 20% to $2.70: I need to raise rates or something, try asking congress to look into it.
Fourth 20% to $3.30: There goes my savings.
Fifth 20% to $4.10: There goes my livelihood.

You nailed it right on the head.

As for other things being discussed. All it takes is for one good small company to get sizable venture capital in place and Chevy and Ford and Dodge and alot of other companies are done for.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: TruePaige
As an added in lil' note...GM also has the technology already developed for this:

EV1 parallel hybrid

The parallel hybrid variant featured a de-stroked 1.3 L turbocharged DTI diesel engine (Isuzu Circle L), delivering 75 hp, installed in the trunk along with an additional 6.5 hp DC motor/generator; the two motors drove the rear wheels through an electronically controlled transaxle. When combined with the AC induction motor which powered the front wheels, all three power units delivered a total output of 219 hp, accelerating the car to 0-60 mph (96.6 km/h) in 7 seconds. A single tank of diesel fuel could keep the car running for 550 miles with a fuel economy of 80 mpg.[citation needed]

A similar technology is used in the 2005 Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid concept.



So they can choke to death on their lil' GM Volt piece of crap. They can give an all electric car, or a hybrid that doesn't stink...but they give neither.

You seriously believe that GM has not looked at every option they have available too them. Closing 4 truck plants is a move of desperation and not something that is taken lightly. If what you say is truly a viable option GM would be working on implementing it. But these days it doesn't look like GM is taking any chances so I'm gonna go with believing that GM engineers night slightly more than you regarding this technology.

Ah blind faith against the possibility that something could be done better, that's nice. ;)

You don't think big companies make stupid moves? Look at Microsoft, they can throw billions and billions at an operating system, and not make it run any better than one from years ago.

Ah bias and closed mindedness. So what successful Auto company are you running? I think I missed it. I'm not saying big companies don't make stupid mistakes but you act as if you're the only person who is thinking of or has ever thought about what you're saying. I realize this is Anandtech and people here like to stroke their egos but come on.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
Originally posted by: PricklyPete
Originally posted by: Linux23
These auto manufacturers are fvcking stupid. Gas prices has been going up steadily for the past few years, and they still keep introducing big fvcking SUV's??? These are CEO's that make these decisions, yet the little guy suffers when they lose their jobs.

We have the technology, so give people the choice to buy electric only vehicles now regardless of the range. My commute is only 3 miles to the subway. I could bike if I wanted to, but I live in a bad area, so i'm not going to risk my life to save a few bucks.

Why do we have to wait until 2010 to get an all electric vehicle? What have they been doing for the past 5 years? Planning for more big SUV's?:roll:

Umm...actually Toyota is the only manufacturer to roll out large SUV's and trucks lately (Land Cruiser, Sequoia, Tundra)...while it is has been a couple of years since GM rolled theirs out...and you have to remember that a vehicle is in design for several years before being introduced to market. So it was at least 5 years ago when GM made the decision to come out with a new version of the Tahoe and Yukon..and people were still buying huge SUV's in droves. Try thinking through what you're saying before you post.

And yeah...GM should build a car just for your 3 mile walk. That's a fantastic business decision....cause making you happy will cure all problems. Do you honestly think a car can be made in minutes and pass all government regulations and market demands? Again...think before you post.

The poster is an idiot.
1) A 3 mile drive? I'd drive a tank if that was my daily gas consumption
2) What is wrong with one of hte current hybrids? or something like a Honda Civic?
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
91
And of course, no one is talking about heating oil prices. Truth is, I expect to spend just as much on heating oil this winter as I spend on gasoline. I can't wait to buy a Mcmansion on discount because no one wants those anymore.