Germany: Israel must refrain from new settlements

[Lemon law]

Well JEDIY, if you call me, I will come. Yes Virginia, there is no Santa Claus, but denying the force of International law is a fools game. The problem with the force of international law, is like the weather it can change. Israel may have found some international favor in the UN 30 years ago, and now that is rapidly changing. And now Israeli support is down to only the USA and in future even that looks dubious. But woe to the nation who ignores that that times change and they have worn out their welcome. We can look at the Brits in England who were forced out of India, the French forced out Algeria, and South Vietnam, the fate of that other Apartheid State in South Africa, and even the USA getting bled dry with trying to overstay their welcome in South Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Or the defunct USSR who tried the same in Afghanistan and lost all their post WW2 gains as they ended the cold war and took the peace dividend.

As now its only Israel totally stuck in la la land totally confident they can retain their illegal gains from the 1967&73 wars. And look what it has bought Israel for its policy of continual settling on disputed lands as Israel feel out of favor for failing to help implement a Palestinian State ever since 1992. Up until a few years ago Israel could half way count on the support of Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey, but now Netanyuhu policy has even destroyed that faith leaving Israel totally isolated in the mid-east. Losing Israel all its hard won gains in 2 decades of Arab diplomacy.

Its easy to look at only Israel and say they are prosperous yah horray, but the larger world is now looking at the Arab misery that Israel is built on. As Hamas is now perhaps the greatest partial gainer now that the Israeli embargo of Gaza is basic toast.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...tunnel-imports-unleash-building-boom-1.403357

Israel has to be absolutely crazy if they think a New and democratic Egypt will ever help Israel embargo Gaza. As it is, 2/3'rd of Gaza import goods come in through underground tunnels, and only 1/3 come in from Egyptian help. After Egyptian elections, its likely Egypt will permit the almost unrestricted flow of above ground Gaza imports and exports. And thereafter Gaza will regain control of its own air space and sea space. As Jordan will likely do the the same with the West Bank, a policy of Palestinian non violence will likely gain more and more favor in the international community. Ultimately forcing Israel back to its 1948 legal borders.

But for now, Gaza is gaining by non-violence and Israel is getting totally paranoid with delusions of grander.

 

[cybrsage]

...lots of words that still are not the relevant portions of my "proof"...

Still waiting for you to support yourself. You posted links, I read them and found the first lines showed they had nothing to do with your claims and asked you to quote the portions you are referencing, and you refuse.

This lack of supporting your own position is pretty lame. Why bother posting links if you refuse to show where the links support your position?

 

[Lemon law]

Still waiting for you to support yourself. You posted links, I read them and found the first lines showed they had nothing to do with your claims and asked you to quote the portions you are referencing, and you refuse.

This lack of supporting your own position is pretty lame. Why bother posting links if you refuse to show where the links support your position?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As they say cybrsage, the final proof will be in the pudding.

Go peddle your proof to the French who lost control of their colonial empire and along with the British. Or better yet go to former South Africa and demand the return of Apartheid.

Reactionary Idiots like you all convinced the world will never change, and like the little boy who cried wolf, you only discredit yourself.

So cybrsare why don't you prove your power, by going to the nearest sea coast and prove you have the powers to prevent the tides coming in and out.

As you buy the Danny Alyon bullshit revisionist history without question. But riddle me this as even Alyon concedes the West Bank is disputed Territory only resolvable by a joint Israeli Palestinian agreement. Why should Israel and Israel alone control disputed territory and not the Palestinians also. After 44 years of Israel and Israel alone control, ALL ISRAELI SOLE CONTROL IS GETTING REALLY REALLY DUBIOUS.

As the world demands a Israeli settlement freeze at a absolute minimum and Israel loses all moral support.

 

[EagleKeeper]

]

As now its only Israel totally stuck in la la land totally confident they can retain their illegal gains from the 1967&73 wars. And look what it has bought Israel for its policy of continual settling on disputed lands as Israel feel out of favor for failing to help implement a Palestinian State ever since 1992. Up until a few years ago Israel could half way count on the support of Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey, but now Netanyuhu policy has even destroyed that faith leaving Israel totally isolated in the mid-east. Losing Israel all its hard won gains in 2 decades of Arab diplomacy .Egypt "peace" was purchased by the US. Jordan has no desire to tangle with Israel; they never complained at all about the West Bank and actively despise the Palestinians. They vividly remember Black Monday

Its easy to look at only Israel and say they are prosperous yah horray, but the larger world is now looking at the Arab misery that Israel is built on. What Arab misery; the Arabs brought their own misery to the party and no one wants to admit that. It is eassier to blame Israel. As Hamas is now perhaps the greatest partial gainer now that the Israeli embargo of Gaza is basic toast. Until sea shipments come in to Gaza; Gaza is heavily dependent on Israeli good will. Where are most of the supplies into Gaza coming from?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...tunnel-imports-unleash-building-boom-1.403357

Israel can easily destroy the tunnels from Gaza into Egypt by digging a ditch and or saturation bombing. They chose to allow the tunnels as a pressure cooker relief.

Israel has to be absolutely crazy if they think a New and democratic Egypt will ever help Israel embargo Gaza. As it is, 2/3'rd of Gaza import goods come in through underground tunnels, and only 1/3 come in from Egyptian help. After Egyptian elections, its likely Egypt will permit the almost unrestricted flow of above ground Gaza imports and exports. And thereafter Gaza will regain control of its own air space and sea space. How? The UN will institute a no fly zone? As Jordan will likely do the the same with the West Bank, a policy of Palestinian non violence will likely gain more and more favor in the international community. Ultimately forcing Israel back to its 1948 legal borders. Where is this policy of Palestinian non-violence coming from. The Palestinian government that includes Hamas. From Hamas themselves. Or is there going to be a two part solution; West Bank w/ freedoms and Gaza as a military ghetto?

And who will do the forcing of Israel back to the '48 borders. Israel has truce treaties that have allowed her to expand beyond those borders. Or do you feel those treaties are invalid because they were at the point of a gun?

But for now, Gaza is gaining by non-violence and Israel is getting totally paranoid with delusions of grander.

How do you determine that Gaza is gaining by non-violence. There is violence from Gaza every day. Or are you stating that Gaza is piggybacking off of the "non-violence" of the West Bank?

 

[EagleKeeper]

As you buy the Danny Alyon bullshit revisionist history without question. But riddle me this as even Alyon concedes the West Bank is disputed Territory only resolvable by a joint Israeli Palestinian agreement. Why should Israel and Israel alone control disputed territory and not the Palestinians also. After 44 years of Israel and Israel alone control, ALL ISRAELI SOLE CONTROL IS GETTING REALLY REALLY DUBIOUS.

As the world demands a Israeli settlement freeze at a absolute minimum and Israel loses all moral support.

How is there going to be a joint Israeli/Palestinian agreement if the Palestinians will not even show up for such agreements.

Israel does not want control of the disputed territories - they want the Palestinians to agree and abide by peace treaties so Israel can dump this albatross.

It is the Palestinians that have refused every offer presented by Israel and/or third party agreements; someone always is to week to make an agreement and the puppet master is unwilling to allow such.

Arafat could not follow through on his commitments; the same has been shown with Abbas. How long does Israel have to wait for a Palestinina that actually had lead those people to peace?

 

[cybrsage]

Just for clarification:

Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant
of the
Islamic Resistance Movement

18 August 1988

Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:​

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
​

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."​

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


So tell me, why should Israel sit at a table to negotiate peace with HAMAS when their very own charter says peace negotiations are a contradiction to their principals?
​

 

[Lemon law]

As Ctbrsare maybe asks a good question in, "So tell me, why should Israel sit at a table to negotiate peace with HAMAS when their very own charter says peace negotiations are a contradiction to their principals?"

Because any joint Israel Fatah, and Hamas agreement will thereafter be predicated on Israel recognizing the right of Hamas and Hamas to exist free of Israeli control and in turn Hamas and Fatah must recognize Israel's right to exist.

Israel has it ass backwards, as they demand that agreement on only the part of Hamas and Fatah come before they talk while Israel remains dedicated to the destruction of Hamas and Fatah by defacto reality before Israel engages in peace talks.

If Israeli wants to have Fatah and Hamas to officially agree to recognize the Israeli right to exists, it will come AFTER and not before a negotiated settlement. Condi Rice tried to get a joint Palestinian, Arab, and Israeli agreement at Annapolis, and only Israel refused to negotiate in good faith.

After 44 years of Israeli bullshit, that piece of Israeli propaganda has lost all credibility.

But you cybrsare nor I will be the final deciders, but at the rate Israel is losing all international support right now, Israel's negotiating position is eroding fast. If Israel does not smell the coffee now, the longer Israel waits the less they are likely to end up with.

I can admire your courage of convictions, but when you are becoming a smaller and diminishing minority in your views, your courage of convictions will not prevent the demise of Israel as the larger world will demand Israel retreats back to its legitimate pre 1967 borders.

 

[JS80]

When non-Jews build housing it's economic growth and real estate development. When Jews build houses it's new settlements and apartheid.

 

[cybrsage]

As Ctbrsare maybe asks a good question in, "So tell me, why should Israel sit at a table to negotiate peace with HAMAS when their very own charter says peace negotiations are a contradiction to their principals?"

Because any joint Israel Fatah, and Hamas agreement will thereafter be predicated on Israel recognizing the right of Hamas and Hamas to exist free of Israeli control and in turn Hamas and Fatah must recognize Israel's right to exist.

HAMAS says negotiations are something it will not accept. It will not accept anything less than 100% control of all Israeli lands. It says so in its charter.

You use a negotiated agreement as your argument as to why Israel should enter negotiations with HAMAS...after agreeing that HAMAS refuses to negotiate for anything less than the complete destruction of Israel.

You make no sense.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I think they can at least attempt to do it.

Pals engage in peaceful protesting everyday

NK got pretty close to controlling its population, we don't really want to create another state like that do we?

And like I said, Israel cannot control it's citizens, did you miss what all went on there this year?
The US has far more control over it's citizens, saw lots of that this year.

When you see a post like the one right above your last here from JS80, you see the crap he's pulling but you don't correct him, how come?
I can understand not bothering with Jedi's posts.

 

[cybrsage]

Pals engage in peaceful protesting everyday

We also see them firing rockets every day.

When you see a post like the one right above your last here from JS80, you see the crap he's pulling but you don't correct him, how come?
I can understand not bothering with Jedi's posts.

I don't respond to every post, just the more egregious ones and of course the ones in a continuing conversation.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Pals engage in peaceful protesting everyday

NK got pretty close to controlling its population, we don't really want to create another state like that do we?

And like I said, Israel cannot control it's citizens, did you miss what all went on there this year?
The US has far more control over it's citizens, saw lots of that this year.

When you see a post like the one right above your last here from JS80, you see the crap he's pulling but you don't correct him, how come?
I can understand not bothering with Jedi's posts.

First JS80 is absolutely correct in his assesment that there are two different standards and if one is good for one then the same should hold true for the other!
Cybersage and I agree almost 100% on everything concerning Israel!!


You are the person who really has no clue what you are talking about. You claim to know whats happenning in israel and such yet you actually have no hands on information......do you live there? probably not....
Do you own property in Israel? probably not...
Do you have family presently living in Israel? probably not....
Visiting Israel or communicating with a friend in Israel via Skype doesn`t count!!


Finally nothing is going to happen unless Israel agrees to let it happen.
You claim the Israeli people want the pals to have a state of there own and that is true....so to speak.
But not if it involves a one sides agreement and the people also want whoever represents the Plestinians to police there own pwoplw to guarantee no rocket attacks......
Hamas in their own Charter calls for the destruction of Israel.
You cannot expect israel to enter into peace talks as long as Hamas has a charter that calls for their destruction.,,,,,,

Lets look at what The Anti-Defamation League says Hamas says --

http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/hamas_own_words.htm

Posted: May 2, 2011

"We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood…We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him mercy with the true believers and the martyrs."

(Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip commenting on the killing of Osama Bin Laden, May 2, 2011)

"Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

"The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

"Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

"The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth."

(Sermon delivered by 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV, April 8, 2011, translation by MEMRI).

“We cannot agree to a programme that is intended to poison the minds of our children…Holocaust studies in refugee camps is a contemptible plot and serves the Zionist entity with a goal of creating a reality and telling stories in order to justify acts of slaughter against the Palestinian people."

(Statement from Hamas Ministry of Refugee Affairs on U.N. Relief and Works Agency plan to include Holocaust education in the curriculum taught Palestinian refugees, February 28, 2011)

"The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine."

(Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar, speaking at a memorial service for Palestinians killed during the 2008 Israeli war in Gaza, January 6, 2011)

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."

(Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010)

"We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land. ...
"Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "

(Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org)

Hamas "must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists."

(Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009)

"We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before."

(Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, December 28, 2008)

"This is the time for the third uprising... Resistance will continue through suicide missions."

(Hamas leader-in-exile Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008)

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood."

(Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, calling for a resumption of suicide attacks on Gaza radio, December 27, 2008)

"Israel will pay a heavy price for its crimes against the Palestinians. Israel's actions enhance our determination to pursue the path of resistance through all means available. … [Israel is] committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn't lift a finger to stop it."

(Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, December 25, 2008)

"We won't succumb to the logic of threats made by the Zionist war criminals. Today we are prepared more than ever to foil any aggression against our people."

(Leaflet issued by Izzadin Kassam, the armed wing of Hamas, December 25, 2008)

"It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks."

(Hamas leader Ayman Taha, December 22, 2008).

(The economic crisis is the result of) "bad administrative and financial management and a bad banking system put into place and controlled by the Jewish lobby."

(The Jewish lobby) "controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy."

(Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008; as reported by AFP and other news agencies)

"...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am'... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs]."

(Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."

(Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path."

(Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007)

"[The Tel Aviv suicide bombing] is an an act of self defense... [it is] a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people."

(Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, April 17, 2006)

"[Hamas will] never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land."

(Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, February 3, 2006, Al-Hayyat al-Jedida)

"[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel]."

(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz)

"They have tried to pressure Hamas to abandon resistance and to abandon arms. They tried to pressure Hamas to abandon its strategic choice in Palestine, all of Palestine. They tried to pressure Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. But they failed... We say Hamas will not change its constant principles."

(Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Reuters)

"The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem."

(Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain)

"Hamas is not hostile to Jews because they are Jews. We are hostile to them because they occupied our land and expelled our people.... We did not say we want to throw the Jews in the sea or feed them to sharks. We just said that there is a land called occupied Palestine. It was burglarized and it needs to be returned to the Palestinian people."

(Ismail Hanieh, Hamas leader, January 18, 2006, AP)

"We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land.... We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up."

(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday)

"The program [of Hamas-backed list to legislative council] sets out the details and means for its implementation over the next four years, while the [Hamas] charter talks about vision and strategy…The movement is adhering to the constants and strategies outlined in the [Hamas] charter."

(Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu-Zuhri, explains to Al-Sharq al-Awsat that there is no contradiction between Hamas' platform for the election and its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, January 13, 2006, BBC Monitoring)

"The Taliban are 1,000 times more honorable than the American occupation and its collaborators… We are not a copy of the Taliban... Judge us according to what we are. Everyone must stop blaming the Taliban for things that in fact characterize the people of the West, who seek to turn the international community into a swamp of corruption and destruction, and to spread abomination and disease in the name of absolute freedom...."

"We are part of Allah's promise that Islam will enter Palestine and every home in the world, with a revelation of the power of Allah the Omnipotent, and a revelation of the inferiority of the infidels. Hamas is leading this plan in Gaza, the West Bank, and the 1948 territories, and the Muslim Brotherhood is leading it everywhere else. This is part of Allah's predestination."

(Dr. Mahmoud Zahar, interview in Arabic with elaph.com, October 11, 2005, MEMRI)

"The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."

(Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas "political" leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)

"We stand here on our liberated land, near the armistice borders. We remember when Sharon said that Netzarim is like Tel Aviv. Hamas has said, via the lion of Palestine [Rantisi], that Gaza is like Tel Aviv. The promise that has been fulfilled and will be fulfilled in the future, oh Sharon, is the promise of Allah, and the promise of Hamas. Behold, Palestine is being liberated, Allah willing..."

"We have come here in multitudes to proclaim that Hirbiya and Ashkelon will be taken by the mujahideen. We have come here to say that the weapons of the resistance that you see here will remain, Allah willing, so that we can liberate Palestine – all of Palestine – from the Sea to the River, whether they like it or not."

(Mushir al-Masri, Hamas spokesman, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)

"We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God, and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon."

(Hamas leader Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi (killed in April 2004) at a rally in Gaza, March 28, 2004, AP)

"The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American Administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime. All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime."

(Hamas statement issued after the assassination of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Chicago Tribune, March 25, 2004)

"We have never targeted an American target or American interests despite its hostility. Until now we did not. I am talking about now. In the future, God knows."

(Musa Abu Marzuq, Hamas leader, interview with Reuters, March 25, 2004)

"She [first Hamas woman suicide bomber] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."

(Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, at funeral of Reem Raiyshi, who murdered 4 people, January 15, 2004, AP)

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."
(Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post)

"America is implementing Zionist Israeli policy to serve the Zionist project in Palestine. The battle America is undertaking is designed to allow Israel to remain in the Palestinian homeland...."

"Zionist Israeli and Jewish policy is to strike every power emerging in the Arab and Muslim world… Any country that develops power threatening to this entity (Israel), they want to smash it."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin (killed in March 2004), January 30, 2003, Teheran Times)

"Suicide attacks and jihad reinforce national unity in the ranks....Our voice is one of struggle, of jihad and of suicide....Iraq could win if it equipped its citizens with explosive belts and turned them into human bombs."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with the Muslim website Alskifa, January 10, 2003, translated by Israel Defense Forces)

"We reject this US domination and this frantic war. From our side, we concentrate on striking blows to it here in Palestine, with the aim of ironing out the Jewish entity in Palestine, which is the cause of trouble in the world..."

"America... always works in favor of the existence of the Israeli entity... This is mainly due to the Zionist-Christian conviction and the 70 million Americans who follow the Protestant creed, which is in favor of Jews against the Muslims. The same applies to most of Britain's population..."

"Because the Israeli and American enemies are ravaging the earth; they do not believe in anything besides power. The Ummah must adopt the principle of Jihad and fighting the enemies."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with Australian Muslim youth magazine, Nida'ul Islam, June/ July 2002)

"The Movement within two months [after the intifada broke] was able to launch qualitative operations that shook the world… there are qualitative Jihad operations such as those in Natanya and Khadera. We are proud of such operations and the next days will witness better and bigger ones...."

"I say that the final battle will result in our victory and that this land will reject this enemy similar to its predecessors..."

"It is not a must that it would be in 2027 for it could be five years earlier or ten years later. The important thing is that the equation revolves round 2027 and the Hebrew state would end Insha'allah [God willing]."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview, Palestine-info, March 2001)
Early Hamas communiqués (distributed by Islamic Association for Palestine)

"Come to jihad, come to jihad, come to martyrdom..."
"Those thirsty for Jihad all over the world. For the sake of Allah. For liberating the land of Palestine and Jerusalem...."

"We declared and continue to declare now, that a Jew is a Jew... [do not trust them when they say they want peace because they act only] to serve their religion and their people."

(Hamas communiqué, March 9, 1989, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."

(Hamas communiqué, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Nazi Jews tried different methods..."
"Let everyone know that Hamas... is only against Jews and those twisted in their manner... it realizes the Jews' methods in trying to cause hostility and friction between people..."
"We should lend punches to the Jews wherever possible [to commemorate Muhammad's defeat of one of the Jewish tribes of Arabia]."

(Hamas communiqué, September 8, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

 

[Lonbjerg]

First JS80 is absolutely correct in his assesment that there are two different standards and if one is good for one then the same should hold true for the other!
Cybersage and I agree almost 100% on everything concerning Israel!!


You are the person who really has no clue what you are talking about. You claim to know whats happenning in israel and such yet you actually have no hands on information......do you live there? probably not....
Do you own property in Israel? probably not...
Do you have family presently living in Israel? probably not....
Visiting Israel or communicating with a friend in Israel via Skype doesn`t count!!


Finally nothing is going to happen unless Israel agrees to let it happen.
You claim the Israeli people want the pals to have a state of there own and that is true....so to speak.
But not if it involves a one sides agreement and the people also want whoever represents the Plestinians to police there own pwoplw to guarantee no rocket attacks......
Hamas in their own Charter calls for the destruction of Israel.
You cannot expect israel to enter into peace talks as long as Hamas has a charter that calls for their destruction.,,,,,,

Lets look at what The Anti-Defamation League says Hamas says --

http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/hamas_own_words.htm

Posted: May 2, 2011

"We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood…We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him mercy with the true believers and the martyrs."

(Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip commenting on the killing of Osama Bin Laden, May 2, 2011)

"Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

"The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

"Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

"The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth."

(Sermon delivered by 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV, April 8, 2011, translation by MEMRI).

“We cannot agree to a programme that is intended to poison the minds of our children…Holocaust studies in refugee camps is a contemptible plot and serves the Zionist entity with a goal of creating a reality and telling stories in order to justify acts of slaughter against the Palestinian people."

(Statement from Hamas Ministry of Refugee Affairs on U.N. Relief and Works Agency plan to include Holocaust education in the curriculum taught Palestinian refugees, February 28, 2011)

"The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine."

(Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar, speaking at a memorial service for Palestinians killed during the 2008 Israeli war in Gaza, January 6, 2011)

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."

(Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010)

"We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land. ...
"Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "

(Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org)

Hamas "must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists."

(Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009)

"We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before."

(Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, December 28, 2008)

"This is the time for the third uprising... Resistance will continue through suicide missions."

(Hamas leader-in-exile Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008)

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood."

(Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, calling for a resumption of suicide attacks on Gaza radio, December 27, 2008)

"Israel will pay a heavy price for its crimes against the Palestinians. Israel's actions enhance our determination to pursue the path of resistance through all means available. … [Israel is] committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn't lift a finger to stop it."

(Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, December 25, 2008)

"We won't succumb to the logic of threats made by the Zionist war criminals. Today we are prepared more than ever to foil any aggression against our people."

(Leaflet issued by Izzadin Kassam, the armed wing of Hamas, December 25, 2008)

"It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks."

(Hamas leader Ayman Taha, December 22, 2008).

(The economic crisis is the result of) "bad administrative and financial management and a bad banking system put into place and controlled by the Jewish lobby."

(The Jewish lobby) "controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy."

(Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008; as reported by AFP and other news agencies)

"...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am'... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs]."

(Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."

(Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path."

(Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007)

"[The Tel Aviv suicide bombing] is an an act of self defense... [it is] a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people."

(Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, April 17, 2006)

"[Hamas will] never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land."

(Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, February 3, 2006, Al-Hayyat al-Jedida)

"[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel]."

(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz)

"They have tried to pressure Hamas to abandon resistance and to abandon arms. They tried to pressure Hamas to abandon its strategic choice in Palestine, all of Palestine. They tried to pressure Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. But they failed... We say Hamas will not change its constant principles."

(Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Reuters)

"The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem."

(Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain)

"Hamas is not hostile to Jews because they are Jews. We are hostile to them because they occupied our land and expelled our people.... We did not say we want to throw the Jews in the sea or feed them to sharks. We just said that there is a land called occupied Palestine. It was burglarized and it needs to be returned to the Palestinian people."

(Ismail Hanieh, Hamas leader, January 18, 2006, AP)

"We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land.... We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up."

(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday)

"The program [of Hamas-backed list to legislative council] sets out the details and means for its implementation over the next four years, while the [Hamas] charter talks about vision and strategy…The movement is adhering to the constants and strategies outlined in the [Hamas] charter."

(Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu-Zuhri, explains to Al-Sharq al-Awsat that there is no contradiction between Hamas' platform for the election and its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, January 13, 2006, BBC Monitoring)

"The Taliban are 1,000 times more honorable than the American occupation and its collaborators… We are not a copy of the Taliban... Judge us according to what we are. Everyone must stop blaming the Taliban for things that in fact characterize the people of the West, who seek to turn the international community into a swamp of corruption and destruction, and to spread abomination and disease in the name of absolute freedom...."

"We are part of Allah's promise that Islam will enter Palestine and every home in the world, with a revelation of the power of Allah the Omnipotent, and a revelation of the inferiority of the infidels. Hamas is leading this plan in Gaza, the West Bank, and the 1948 territories, and the Muslim Brotherhood is leading it everywhere else. This is part of Allah's predestination."

(Dr. Mahmoud Zahar, interview in Arabic with elaph.com, October 11, 2005, MEMRI)

"The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."

(Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas "political" leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)

"We stand here on our liberated land, near the armistice borders. We remember when Sharon said that Netzarim is like Tel Aviv. Hamas has said, via the lion of Palestine [Rantisi], that Gaza is like Tel Aviv. The promise that has been fulfilled and will be fulfilled in the future, oh Sharon, is the promise of Allah, and the promise of Hamas. Behold, Palestine is being liberated, Allah willing..."

"We have come here in multitudes to proclaim that Hirbiya and Ashkelon will be taken by the mujahideen. We have come here to say that the weapons of the resistance that you see here will remain, Allah willing, so that we can liberate Palestine – all of Palestine – from the Sea to the River, whether they like it or not."

(Mushir al-Masri, Hamas spokesman, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)

"We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God, and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon."

(Hamas leader Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi (killed in April 2004) at a rally in Gaza, March 28, 2004, AP)

"The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American Administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime. All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime."

(Hamas statement issued after the assassination of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Chicago Tribune, March 25, 2004)

"We have never targeted an American target or American interests despite its hostility. Until now we did not. I am talking about now. In the future, God knows."

(Musa Abu Marzuq, Hamas leader, interview with Reuters, March 25, 2004)

"She [first Hamas woman suicide bomber] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."

(Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, at funeral of Reem Raiyshi, who murdered 4 people, January 15, 2004, AP)

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."
(Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post)

"America is implementing Zionist Israeli policy to serve the Zionist project in Palestine. The battle America is undertaking is designed to allow Israel to remain in the Palestinian homeland...."

"Zionist Israeli and Jewish policy is to strike every power emerging in the Arab and Muslim world… Any country that develops power threatening to this entity (Israel), they want to smash it."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin (killed in March 2004), January 30, 2003, Teheran Times)

"Suicide attacks and jihad reinforce national unity in the ranks....Our voice is one of struggle, of jihad and of suicide....Iraq could win if it equipped its citizens with explosive belts and turned them into human bombs."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with the Muslim website Alskifa, January 10, 2003, translated by Israel Defense Forces)

"We reject this US domination and this frantic war. From our side, we concentrate on striking blows to it here in Palestine, with the aim of ironing out the Jewish entity in Palestine, which is the cause of trouble in the world..."

"America... always works in favor of the existence of the Israeli entity... This is mainly due to the Zionist-Christian conviction and the 70 million Americans who follow the Protestant creed, which is in favor of Jews against the Muslims. The same applies to most of Britain's population..."

"Because the Israeli and American enemies are ravaging the earth; they do not believe in anything besides power. The Ummah must adopt the principle of Jihad and fighting the enemies."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with Australian Muslim youth magazine, Nida'ul Islam, June/ July 2002)

"The Movement within two months [after the intifada broke] was able to launch qualitative operations that shook the world… there are qualitative Jihad operations such as those in Natanya and Khadera. We are proud of such operations and the next days will witness better and bigger ones...."

"I say that the final battle will result in our victory and that this land will reject this enemy similar to its predecessors..."

"It is not a must that it would be in 2027 for it could be five years earlier or ten years later. The important thing is that the equation revolves round 2027 and the Hebrew state would end Insha'allah [God willing]."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview, Palestine-info, March 2001)
Early Hamas communiqués (distributed by Islamic Association for Palestine)

"Come to jihad, come to jihad, come to martyrdom..."
"Those thirsty for Jihad all over the world. For the sake of Allah. For liberating the land of Palestine and Jerusalem...."

"We declared and continue to declare now, that a Jew is a Jew... [do not trust them when they say they want peace because they act only] to serve their religion and their people."

(Hamas communiqué, March 9, 1989, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."

(Hamas communiqué, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Nazi Jews tried different methods..."
"Let everyone know that Hamas... is only against Jews and those twisted in their manner... it realizes the Jews' methods in trying to cause hostility and friction between people..."
"We should lend punches to the Jews wherever possible [to commemorate Muhammad's defeat of one of the Jewish tribes of Arabia]."

(Hamas communiqué, September 8, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

So that gives Israel a free pas? :hmm:

 

[Orignal Earl]

I don't respond to every post, just the more egregious ones and of course the ones in a continuing conversation.

lol
How would you describe his post

 

[Orignal Earl]

You are the person who really has no clue what you are talking about. You claim to know whats happenning in israel and such yet you actually have no hands on information......do you live there? probably not....
Do you own property in Israel? probably not...
Do you have family presently living in Israel? probably not....
Visiting Israel or communicating with a friend in Israel via Skype doesn`t count!!

Your right, I'm just your average guy who is interested in Israel
I was seeing a lot of Americans on this board just blindly defending her every move and wondered what all makes that tick.
I learned most of the defenders were American Jews, and the rest mostly Americans on board with the CreepingShia paranoia, no doubt there's a couple of the End of Days supporters too.

So you figure if I had a bud who I skyped with in Israel, his opinion would not be as valid as yours
Why?
Do you realize your *PALESTAINS DO NOT EXIST!!!! ARE YOU AND LL BROTHERS LOL1111 YOU R PROB POSTING FROm YOUR CONDO IN GAZA!!!!
adds nothing to defending Israel

 

[Orignal Earl]

So that gives Israel a free pas? :hmm:

DO NOT questions The The Anti-Defamation League!!!0001
WE are not talking AAAABout the UN or BBC or other stopid HUMAN rights groups here LOL111

 

[Lonbjerg]

DO NOT questions The The Anti-Defamation League!!!0001
WE are not talking AAAABout the UN or BBC or other stopid HUMAN rights groups here LOL111

I dislike all parties down there...and I really dislike the religion fucking up real world policies

 

[Steeplerot]

I learned most of the defenders were American Jews

I guess someone has to speak out seeing how Yoda loves making such a big stink, as a US Jew, most Jews I know think Israel has far overreached on the world stage. The whole subject is a bit embarrassing really and not one most polite folks want to get into in public, Israel reminds me of a crazy uncle who cannot figure out when limits are pushed.

These folks like Yoda are religious extremists plain and simple, who represent noone but themselves anymore then Classy speaks for all African Americans.

Best to ignore morons. They are tools of christian fundamentalist end timers imo in this country. -0% credibility or rationality. It's shameful really to show such bias on such a complicated problem.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I guess someone has to speak out seeing how Yoda loves making such a big stink, as a US Jew, most Jews I know think Israel has far overreached on the world stage. The whole subject is a bit embarrassing really and not one most polite folks want to get into in public, Israel reminds me of a crazy uncle who cannot figure out when limits are pushed.

These folks like Yoda are religious extremists plain and simple, who represent noone but themselves anymore then Classy speaks for all African Americans.

Best to ignore morons. They are tools of christian fundamentalist end timers imo in this country. -0% credibility or rationality. It's shameful really to show such bias on such a complicated problem.

I've seen polls that most American Jews would support a pal state, especially the younger ones.
I know from other boards, there are a lot of American Jews who can debate about Israel and see things from both sides
There is one poster here too, that Dojbo guy, seems a lot more rational.

MAYBE TGEY ARE ALL BROTHERS relateD hERE !!!!111-
Jedi is the throw away account, hard to mix up with the other online persona


edit- Im wondering if I should be saying North American Jews because same would apply to Canadian Jews

 

[cybrsage]

lol
How would you describe his post

Not agregious and not part of a continuing conversation I am having. I figured that would be obvious.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Not agregious and not part of a continuing conversation I am having. I figured that would be obvious.

Ok
Now I understand where you are coming from a little better

 

[cybrsage]

I've seen polls that most American Jews would support a pal state, especially the younger ones.
I know from other boards, there are a lot of American Jews who can debate about Israel and see things from both sides
There is one poster here too, that Dojbo guy, seems a lot more rational.

I think there should be a Palestinian state as well. It cannot exist with HAMAS as its leadership, though, since the creation of this new nation which has never before existed would require both a peace agreement with Israel and the acceptance of the right of the nation of Israel to exist.

HAMAS will not do either, they say so themselves. Until HAMAS is no longer a player there can be no peace and no new nation of Palestine.

It is stupid to give concessions to someone whose entire reason for existence is your destruction.

EDIT: Look at how different the two portions of Palestine are...West Bank and Gaza Strip. West Bank is peaceful...no rocket attacks, no cross border attacks where they try to blow up a bus full of school children using an anti-tank rocket, nothing of the sort. West Bank is not run by a group whose only goal is the destruction of Israel.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I think there should be a Palestinian state as well. It cannot exist with HAMAS as its leadership, though, since the creation of this new nation which has never before existed would require both a peace agreement with Israel and the acceptance of the right of the nation of Israel to exist.

HAMAS will not do either, they say so themselves. Until HAMAS is no longer a player there can be no peace and no new nation of Palestine.

It is stupid to give concessions to someone whose entire reason for existence is your destruction.

EDIT: Look at how different the two portions of Palestine are...West Bank and Gaza Strip. West Bank is peaceful...no rocket attacks, no cross border attacks where they try to blow up a bus full of school children using an anti-tank rocket, nothing of the sort. West Bank is not run by a group whose only goal is the destruction of Israel.

Yes, I guess the time for Hamas has come and gone, on this side of the pond that name just means terrorists.
Things will get re branded, a couple people shuffle around and we feel a little better about things, some of our politicians score some peace agreement things to put on their resumes
The few crazy religious people will always have their squabbles
And then we start the cycle over again

 

[cybrsage]

Yes, I guess the time for Hamas has come and gone, on this side of the pond that name just means terrorists.
Things will get re branded, a couple people shuffle around and we feel a little better about things, some of our politicians score some peace agreement things to put on their resumes
The few crazy religious people will always have their squabbles
And then we start the cycle over again

HAMAS should have looked at the Irish terrorist groups and learned from them. No matter which side of the Irish issue anyone is on, the effectiveness of their terrorists cannot be denied. The big difference is that the Irish understood that terrorism could only be sustained for so long and then it must be stopped. Its effectiveness lasts to a point, then it becomes a hindrence. Except for a small, splinter group of people (you will always have a handfull of nuts no matter what), the terrorist groups disbanded and became political in nature.

HAMAS needs to do that. Terrorism worked for a bit...it got them attention, caused upheaval, and changed the status quo. However, its usefullness is over and has been for some time. It simply is not possible for any world power to force Israel to give in to HAMAS while they are trying to blow up buses full of school kids and lobbing rockets at civilian targets. The Wall Israel built, while reviled by many nations, has stopped suicide bombers...they still try to get into Israel, but they are always caught now. Without it, we would still be seeing suicide bombers blowing up innocent civilians at markets.

If HAMAS gives up their armed fight and actually tries to stop the rocket attacks into Israel (which they are not currently trying to stop), the Gaza Strip would see the violence end. They then also need to remove the demand that Israel be destroyed from their Charter and agree to a two state solution. This last part is something I do not believe HAMAS will ever do.

The other sticking point is Jerusalem. Israel will never give up any part of it, and seriuosly, no one should expect them to do so. The only way I say Israel should give part of Jerusalem is if Mecca and the Vatican are divided up as well. One third to each major religion. Muslims would NEVER give up ANY of their most holy city to any other religion and the Vatican would not do it as well, which is understandable. The Jews should not be expected to give up any of their most holy city to any other religion either.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I think there should be a Palestinian state as well. It cannot exist with HAMAS as its leadership, though, since the creation of this new nation which has never before existed would require both a peace agreement with Israel and the acceptance of the right of the nation of Israel to exist.

HAMAS will not do either, they say so themselves. Until HAMAS is no longer a player there can be no peace and no new nation of Palestine.

It is stupid to give concessions to someone whose entire reason for existence is your destruction.

EDIT: Look at how different the two portions of Palestine are...West Bank and Gaza Strip. West Bank is peaceful...no rocket attacks, no cross border attacks where they try to blow up a bus full of school children using an anti-tank rocket, nothing of the sort. West Bank is not run by a group whose only goal is the destruction of Israel.

Most think this way.

Until Hamas is removed from the picture by the rest of the Palestinians, they are the wild card and are easily able to derail the peace process.

As long as the tiger is kept on the other side of the bars; they are happy to keep poking. At little scratch in the process demonstrates their macho talents and they can show it off. They are scared though if the tiger starts to gets out of the cage so they run to tell the zookeeper, forgetting to tell they they were poking it.

Israel can stop the settlement expansion easily; but that is the only leverage they have to get the Palestinians to the peace table.

The Arabs and the Jews lived side by side previously before any of the land grabs started; purchases worked great. They should be able to do so again, if the puppets will allow it or are removed from the equation.