Georgia Democrats to propose limitations on vasectomies for men

[zinfamous]

at first i thought WTF.

i skipped reading the link and went right to the quote. thought maybe it was from the onion.

then i went back to the link and saw CNN. wtf is the government doing?

Just democrats trolling the fundies and their preposterous attack on womens health.

basically, tossing hypocrisy in the face of the male wasps in charge of the republican party. (yes, democratic party is lead by a bunch of wasps, too)

it's a damn good move, if you ask me.

 

[zinfamous]

The joke is on liberals though. Most religious guys don't get a vasectomy. lol

Besides comparing a vasectomy or tubal ligation to an abortion is way out there like Santorum's ideas.

eh, it's compared to this false republican alliance with the catholics regarding birth control--condoms and any type of birth control.

 

[zinfamous]

This.

I laugh at the "But..but...you can't legislate other people's bodies!" arguments when in fact, there are tons and tons of laws in which the government does exactly that. Drugs and prostitution anyone? I hope anyone using this argument supports legalizing drugs and prostitution everywhere, or else, they're being hypocrites.

I am one of those people for sure, IndyColtsFan!

/salutes

(and I do believe that prostitution/narcotics would have to be legal everywhere, or not at all. What is going on in CA and now in CO is a complete joke)

 

[Mursilis]

Understood, thanks for the quality reply. I still believe you can't legislate like they're trying to do in the article. You either can have abortions, or you can't. Ethics is what is attempting to be legislated, I do not agree.

Virtually any criminal law is going to be a reflection of a person or group's ethics. Are you saying you're simply an anarchist?

 

[Ausm]

Just democrats trolling the fundies and their preposterous attack on womens health.

basically, tossing hypocrisy in the face of the male wasps in charge of the republican party. (yes, democratic party is lead by a bunch of wasps, too)

it's a damn good move, if you ask me.

+1 Spot on analogy.

I'm loving every second of it.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Virtually any criminal law is going to be a reflection of a person or group's ethics. Are you saying you're simply an anarchist?

Not really, I'm saying that the repubs are grasping at straws in this case. I wonder how they came up with 20 weeks to begin with? why not 10, or 5?

Laws for drugs, prostitution, or even abortion are just there to help people that oppose these items sleep at night. Like I said in a previous post, either you have abortions legal or you don't. There is no grey area. I don't agree with abortion, but I also understand that my morals don't apply across the board. I would prefer it legal because at least that helps to reduce the back alley abortions that went on when it was illegal.

 

[Griffinhart]

Not really, I'm saying that the repubs are grasping at straws in this case. I wonder how they came up with 20 weeks to begin with? why not 10, or 5?

Laws for drugs, prostitution, or even abortion are just there to help people that oppose these items sleep at night. Like I said in a previous post, either you have abortions legal or you don't. There is no grey area. I don't agree with abortion, but I also understand that my morals don't apply across the board. I would prefer it legal because at least that helps to reduce the back alley abortions that went on when it was illegal.

They came up with 20 weeks because it is possible for a fetus to be viable as early as 21 weeks. It's unusual earlier than 24 weeks, but it happens. James Elgin Gill was born at 21 weeks and 5 days in Canada and is now a healthy 25 year old adult with a completely normal life. It seems to me at 21 or 22 weeks with a week or two for a margin of error is extremely reasonable.

If you think it's "grasping at straws" when do you think abortions should no longer be an option? Conception? 10 weeks? 20 weeks? 30 weeks? up until birth?

 

[ShawnD1]

If you think it's "grasping at straws" when do you think abortions should no longer be an option? Conception? 10 weeks? 20 weeks? 30 weeks? up until birth?

Right up until birth. Why? Because of all the bullshit republicans put in the way of getting an abortion. You could book your abortion on day 1 of your pregnancy then several months have passed before all of the bullshit put in place has been done correctly
-can't get morning after pills because every pharmacy in your hillbilly town is run by religious fanatics who refuse to sell morning after pills
-test positive for pregnancy
-talk to a doctor
-get speech from the haters (abortion therapist) about how you're a murderer
-get fisted by a doctor because the republicans think that would be funny
-have another talk about how you're a murderer
-get fisted a second time by a different doctor just to make sure there really is a baby in there to kill
-sign a waver saying yes you are sure you want to murder your baby
-sign document giving a baby name to your baby
-sign another document saying yes you're sure you want to kill unborn baby named Saddam
-get fisted a third time to be really really really sure there's a baby in there
-wait 4 months because all of that fisting cost every dollar you had and now you can't afford the abortion
-by the time you have enough money, it's already month 7
-now you're totally fucked and can't have an abortion
-have baby at hospital at a whopping cost of $9,000 link
-can't afford baby, so give it up for adoption
-republicans bitch about their taxes going up to pay for this baby that is 100% their fault



If abortion was a simple 1 day thing where you just sign a form saying you want it done then yes 5 months is perfectly reasonable. With all the bullshit they have right now? It should be doable up to 8-9 months.

 

[Mursilis]

Not really, I'm saying that the repubs are grasping at straws in this case. I wonder how they came up with 20 weeks to begin with? why not 10, or 5?

Laws for drugs, prostitution, or even abortion are just there to help people that oppose these items sleep at night. Like I said in a previous post, either you have abortions legal or you don't. There is no grey area. I don't agree with abortion, but I also understand that my morals don't apply across the board. I would prefer it legal because at least that helps to reduce the back alley abortions that went on when it was illegal.

So, your morals don't apply across the board. Fair enough, they shouldn't. But you (I'm assuming here) oppose rape, and want to keep that a crime. What's different between abortion and rape, and why don't you agree with abortion?

 

[Griffinhart]

Right up until birth. Why? Because of all the bullshit republicans put in the way of getting an abortion. You could book your abortion on day 1 of your pregnancy then several months have passed before all of the bullshit put in place has been done correctly
-can't get morning after pills because every pharmacy in your hillbilly town is run by religious fanatics who refuse to sell morning after pills
-test positive for pregnancy
-talk to a doctor
-get speech from the haters (abortion therapist) about how you're a murderer
-get fisted by a doctor because the republicans think that would be funny
-have another talk about how you're a murderer
-get fisted a second time by a different doctor just to make sure there really is a baby in there to kill
-sign a waver saying yes you are sure you want to murder your baby
-sign document giving a baby name to your baby
-sign another document saying yes you're sure you want to kill unborn baby named Saddam
-get fisted a third time to be really really really sure there's a baby in there
-wait 4 months because all of that fisting cost every dollar you had and now you can't afford the abortion
-by the time you have enough money, it's already month 7
-now you're totally fucked and can't have an abortion
-have baby at hospital at a whopping cost of $9,000 link
-can't afford baby, so give it up for adoption
-republicans bitch about their taxes going up to pay for this baby that is 100% their fault



If abortion was a simple 1 day thing where you just sign a form saying you want it done then yes 5 months is perfectly reasonable. With all the bullshit they have right now? It should be doable up to 8-9 months.

So you feel aborting a viable fetus is fine because Republican's piss you off? Really?

 

[ShawnD1]

So you feel aborting a viable fetus is fine because Republican's piss you off? Really?

Yes.

The democrats want to keep it simple. You're pregnant? No problem. Go to Abortions R Us and have that thing scrambled. Takes 20 minutes, no wait times, done deal. Republicans want to push it as long as possible so your abortion can only happen when the baby is viable. I have no problems with killing unborn babies, so it would make sense to do this just to anger republicans and say "This is your fault. I wanted to kill this when it was just a bunch of cells but you made me kill a 99% completed baby. You are going to hell for this." (I don't believe in hell so saying I'm going there doesn't bother me)

 

[zinfamous]

Yes.

The democrats want to keep it simple. You're pregnant? No problem. Go to Abortions R Us and have that thing scrambled. Takes 20 minutes, no wait times, done deal. Republicans want to push it as long as possible so your abortion can only happen when the baby is viable. I have no problems with killing unborn babies, so it would make sense to do this just to anger republicans and say "This is your fault. I wanted to kill this when it was just a bunch of cells but you made me kill a 99% completed baby. You are going to hell for this." (I don't believe in hell so saying I'm going there doesn't bother me)

that is a disgustingly shrewd....and astute argument.


Not sure what to think about that.

:hmm:

 

[Nebor]

So you feel aborting a viable fetus is fine because Republican's piss you off? Really?

I feel that aborting fetuses (at any state) is fine. That it drives ignorant rednecks nuts is just a bonus.

 

[StrangerGuy]

I'm not sure whats the point since men who chose to have vasectomies are probably not the dumb, irresponsible guys who spill their load everywhere in making the next-gen unwanted, neglected and screwed-up kids.

 

[Griffinhart]

Yes.

The democrats want to keep it simple. You're pregnant? No problem. Go to Abortions R Us and have that thing scrambled. Takes 20 minutes, no wait times, done deal. Republicans want to push it as long as possible so your abortion can only happen when the baby is viable. I have no problems with killing unborn babies, so it would make sense to do this just to anger republicans and say "This is your fault. I wanted to kill this when it was just a bunch of cells but you made me kill a 99% completed baby. You are going to hell for this." (I don't believe in hell so saying I'm going there doesn't bother me)

I'm curious, If someone walked up to a 6 month pregnant woman and punched her in the gut hard enough to cause the fetus to abort and die, what charges should be made against him? By these standards, simple assault and battery. would you find that appropriate?

For the record, I'm not religious, so I would never tell a person that they were going to hell for their actions. But I have to say, I find your stance every bit as as intolerant as any one that wants to outright ban abortion period. Worse even.

 

[ElFenix]

Not really, I'm saying that the repubs are grasping at straws in this case. I wonder how they came up with 20 weeks to begin with? why not 10, or 5?

i'm guessing it derives from quickening.

Usually, quickening occurs naturally at about the middle of a pregnancy. A woman pregnant for the first time (i.e. a primigravida woman) typically feels fetal movements at about 18-20 weeks, whereas a woman who has already given birth at least twice (i.e. a multipara woman) will typically feel movements around 15-17 weeks.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening

back before WASPs decided mexican catholics (and their multitude of babies) were the greatest threat to civil society in the US, abortion was legal up until quickening.

 

[ShawnD1]

I'm curious, If someone walked up to a 6 month pregnant woman and punched her in the gut hard enough to cause the fetus to abort and die, what charges should be made against him? By these standards, simple assault and battery. would you find that appropriate?

Exactly.

Considering the baby a full human opens up a LOT of problems. Woman falls down some stairs and it somehow causes a miscarriage? Well, since her baby has 100% rights, she would be charged with manslaughter or criminal negligence causing death. Democrats, obviously, think that's retarded. Falling down the stairs is not a crime. Crazy republicans (not all republicans) think this makes perfect sense. You fall down the stairs? Bitch should be in jail for 5 years. That'll teach her.

 

[Mursilis]

Exactly.

Considering the baby a full human opens up a LOT of problems. Woman falls down some stairs and it somehow causes a miscarriage? Well, since her baby has 100% rights, she would be charged with manslaughter or criminal negligence causing death. Democrats, obviously, think that's retarded. Falling down the stairs is not a crime. Crazy republicans (not all republicans) think this makes perfect sense. You fall down the stairs? Bitch should be in jail for 5 years. That'll teach her.

Wow. That's just profoundly dumb. Has any mother who, say, was involved in a motor vehicle accident in which her child died been charged with that child's death where the accident was not her fault or due to her negligence? Almost every serious crime requires intent, or at least evidence of negligence. Just as every death is not a crime, every miscarriage is not a crime, even to a pro-life person.

 

[Atreus21]

Laws for drugs, prostitution, or even abortion are just there to help people that oppose these items sleep at night. Like I said in a previous post, either you have abortions legal or you don't. There is no grey area. I don't agree with abortion, but I also understand that my morals don't apply across the board. I would prefer it legal because at least that helps to reduce the back alley abortions that went on when it was illegal.

I can't get over how pervasive this mistaken argument has become. Some morals are appropriately applied across the board. Are you saying that murder should not be outlawed across the board because the belief that murder is wrong is a moral one?

If murder is wrong, murdering one's own children is certainly wrong.

 

[zinfamous]

So, your morals don't apply across the board. Fair enough, they shouldn't. But you (I'm assuming here) oppose rape, and want to keep that a crime. What's different between abortion and rape, and why don't you agree with abortion?

..the fuck?

 

[zinfamous]

I can't get over how pervasive this mistaken argument has become. Some morals are appropriately applied across the board. Are you saying that murder should not be outlawed across the board because the belief that murder is wrong is a moral one?

If murder is wrong, it takes only the slightest of variations of the defense of its illegality to apply the same reasoning to abortion.

abortion is not murder, though.

that's where your analysis falls apart.

I understand that this is the major dividing line on both sides of this issues, but there you have it.

abortion is murder = theological/belief/faith argument
abortion /murder = science/medicine argument.

 

[ch33zw1z]

So, your morals don't apply across the board. Fair enough, they shouldn't. But you (I'm assuming here) oppose rape, and want to keep that a crime. What's different between abortion and rape, and why don't you agree with abortion?

Yes, I oppose rape.

I'll start with the abortion topic. I personally don't agree with abortion, but let me elaborate because you brought up the topic of rape. If a woman is raped, then I would be supportive in her decision, putting my own morals aside. Only the strongest of women could look at that child day after day after day and not let the memory of how the child was conceived adversely affect her and the child's life, IMO.

Rape is forcing an otherwise consenting individual into sexual intercourse. Abortion is destroying a fetus before it becomes a individual. An obvious difference, and ethics come into play when deciding the point at which the fetus becomes an individual. Which is why the debate rages on.

 

[Mursilis]

abortion is murder = theological/belief/faith argument
abortion /murder = science/medicine argument.

Really? How does science tell us what murder is?

 

[Atreus21]

abortion is not murder, though.

That's not the main point. The main point is to dispense with the foolish notion that "my morals cannot apply to others."

If murdering your child immediately after birth is murder, then killing a fetus five seconds prior to birth is murder. At some point, with the child still inside the mother, abortion is murder.

I understand that this is the major dividing line on both sides of this issues, but there you have it.

abortion is murder = theological/belief/faith argument
abortion /murder = science/medicine argument.

That is another point that is complete nonsense. Leftists claim to have the scientific high ground and they fail to realize it's not a scientific argument. And I defy anyone on this forum to point out any argument against abortion either by Mursilis or myself that relies on God for its defense.

Although, frankly, I don't see why the left is so offended at the notion that people might invoke God to bolster an argument. What evidence does science have to propose that human life is any more precious than that of an armadillo? If science is indeed on the pro-abortion side of the argument, then science is certainly fallible; it has provided us with a pretext to destroy our own children.

 

[Munky]

This is libtard/feminazi idiocy at its finest. Does the man carry the unborn child or the woman?

Next up, let's legislate that only women will be sent off to fight in war until the number of women killed in combat is equal to that of men. Equality and all that.