George Zimmerman: Did the prosecution prove its case?

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Did the prosecution prove its case?

  • YES

  • NO


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Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Those saying he gets only manslaughter... In Florida there are minimum sentencing laws. If he is guilty of manslaughter and used a gun to do it he goes away for 15-30 years, I can't remember which, but it might as well be murder 1 (though no capital punishment).

I would be willing to bet that a person with no record convicted of manslaughter in Florida doesn't spend 5 years in jail if they have a good behavior record.

In any case, it would be completely improper for the jury to not convict becsuse they think the sentence could be too severe.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
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Exactly what are the alternatives to shooting when your head is potentially about to be caved in by a concrete sidewalk?

The events that lead up to that are inconsequential simply because it isn't against the law to follow someone. Z's life was being threatened, he took action. You always have a right to defend yourself from substantial bodily harm as long as you aren't the aggressor. Following someone does not constitute aggression.

Saying these expletive always get away, then following them, then killing them, is potentially very consequential.

And like I said, there's no evidence his head was about to be caved in on a sidewalk. In fact there's evidence that was completely impossible at the time of the shooting.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
Saying these expletive always get away, then following them, then killing them, is potentially very consequential.

Sorry, but its not when it comes to self defense. A racist still has a right to defend their life, like it or not. Besides, there is no evidence he said anything to TM like that which might make Z the aggressor.

And like I said, there's no evidence his head was about to be caved in on a sidewalk. In fact there's evidence that was completely impossible at the time of the shooting.

Would love to see evidence of the impossible. That would be a new one.

If the sidewalk was there, and the two were on it, its very possible either of their heads could have come in contact with it.
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
That isn't true. Zimmerman getting out of his truck and following Martin is a key part of this case.

When the jury is deciding if Zimmerman had alternatives to killing Martin they could reach back to his deciding to get out of his truck and confront Martin, if they decide that was his purpose based on his non-emergency call statements.

Legally Zimmerman had as much right to be there as Martin. Zimmerman was a legitimate member of the gated community and was breaking no laws.

The core issue is simple: Was Zimmerman's homicide of Martin self defense? No one is contesting Zimmerman shot Martin.

Further, the Prosecution (State) presented Zimmerman's position over and over: They played the the re-enactment, the Hannity interview, clearly had defense witnesses state Zimmerman cooperated and immediately claimed self defense, etc. As the State has presented this as Zimmerman's position, based on the legal talking heads familiar with Florida law, the State has put themselves in the position to prove beyond a reasonable doubt this was not an act of self defense.

Of course there is a big issue for the State: There are no witnesses to the beginning of the fight. So the motives and corroberating evidence need to be fairly blunt supporting the State's narrative.

But that may not even be enough. If Zimmerman started the conflict and was losing and sought retreat but could not find any he can still, as my understanding of Florida law, claim self defense.

Of course the case, based on the facts, falls apart--there is a reason there were initially no charges AND the State bypassed a Grand Jury + all the false news reporting (a kid hunted down; the edited audio making it appear racist; the selective release of very outdated pictures depicting a young child, etc).

The NEN audio doesn't present Zimmerman as a racist. It also doesn't show him being overtly hostile (just irritated "punks"). The State's presentation of Zimmerman "profiling" blew up in their face as they were not all black and it shows Zimmerman hs been in this situation before without incident. Further, it was surprising to hear the operator did not tell Zimmerman to stay, but she said she did not need him to follow. (Carrying a gun on N. Watch and getting out were dumb, but not illegal). The Defense has called witnesses that indicate Zimmerman was not a racist.

On the flip side the State's star witness testifies that Martin was casting racial slurs about the defendant. The Defense will get to deposit Martin had MJ in his system (even at the low concentration indicating little/no effect, it will support Zimmerman's NEN call that Martin appeared on drugs). The Defense won't get to deposit any of the other victim info (past violence or drug use) but the Judge allowed enough evidence to validate some of the NEN information.

And the evidence goes blank.

We don't know who started the fight.

Martin may have circled back. May not have. Zimmerman may have been looking for a sign. Or he may have followed. We. Do. Not. Know. Prosecution dropped the ball here.

The evidence picks back up with a tussle, possibly swapping of positions.

Martin had no signs of being assaulted. No witnesses explicitly state they saw Zimmerman attack Martin.

At some point the witnesses have Martin on top MMA style. Zimmerman had wound's consistant with being punched a number of times. Martin had at least some markings on his hands indicating he punched someone.

It has been generally agreed that Zimmerman was in a compromised position that made retreat difficult--the definition of self defense. It has also been clearly stated that the curb was a deadly weapon.

Importantly Zimmerman did NOT need to have life threatening injuries. He had only to have a valid FEAR of death or crippling injuries. The fact his head was against a curb and he was possibly concussed with a broken nose and had not injured Martin all point to a self defense narrative.

The State's position? They keep harping on the injuries were not life threatening and IGNORE / RETREAT from their own witnesses testimony that the curb could be such and there need not be life threatening injuries, just fear of serious injury.

They keep moving the goal post.

Because they don't have evidence to support their position.

The rest of the evidence gets petty/circumstancial. Did Zimmerman know "Stand Your Ground"? First, this isn't a SYG case. Second is that is a media term, not the one used in text books.

Zimmerman's claim he was hit 20+ times? Anyone who has watched MMA or boxing knows slaps, feints, etc can inflict emotional reactions. Getting hit does NOT need to hav a 1-for-1 mark. The State has never presented evidence that every hit would leave an indepenant mark.

Zimmerman has obviously made some mistakes (the bail and passport thing show he can make stupid choices under duress. I was much harder on this until someone asked what I would do if the President was talking about the case, personalizing the victim as a surrogate son, but spoke not a word on communities trying to keep them safe).

Zimmerman may be guilty. He could have started the fight. He may have followed aggressively (quick feet tailing Martin). He could have brandished his gun. He may have verbally threatened. He may have grabbed Martin first.

But the State presented none of this.

Their case is it was dark, rainy, and Martin had a right to be there. Martin knew he was followed by someone "creepy". And the next thing we know Martin is in an MMA position, as forensics proves, in control. The State has never answered why if Martin was afraid why he didn't run. Why didn't he go home. Why didn't he after punching Zimmerman why didn't he run away. Why did he mount Zimmerman.

Again, Zimmerman could be as guilty as the sun rising in the East.

But: there is not beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense.

If I was on the jury I would go as far as saying that there is reasonable doubt the State has failed to prove their own narrative (that Martin was acting in self defense due to Zimmerman's hostile actions). That MAY be the case but there is SIGNIFICANT DOUBT about that being the truth.

With the exception of Zimmerman's self-serving statements, there's zero evidence Martin was trying to "kill" Zimmerman. There's zero evidence that the injuries to the back of Zimmerman's head were caused by Martin bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Fence post moving, as usual. There never needed to be evidence Martin was trying to kill Zimmerna.

Only evidence Martin's actions provided a valid fear, from the target, that they could be potentially in a life or limb risking situation. The fact Martin was in controlin an MMA position, Martin was unharmed, and Zimmerman was bloodied and unable to retreat all support the position that Zimmerman could legitimately feel that, if he did NOT act or things did NOT change, he could be seriously injured.

The law does not require you to have been crippled, lost a limb, or dead BEFORE taking defensive actions with lethal force.

There's no evidence the first punch Martin landed was the first contact or attempted contact that took place between them.

Again, two points:

Florida law doesn't negate a person's right to self defense if they begin the conflict. If Zimmerman had spit on Martin and slapped him and Martin got him on the ground and began knifing Zimmerman, Zimmerman would have legal recourse to use lethal force to defend himself.

And there is no evidence that Zimmerman EVER hit Martin. So you can play the game, "There is no evidence Martin hit first." But the State themselves presented Zimmerman as claiming Self Defense.

The fact there is no proof Zimmerman hit Martin goes a long ways to lean the case toward Martin being the physical aggressor.

You have no proof Zimmerman started a physical altercation. None. Falling back on the, "The lack of evidence is no evidence" as *proof* Zimmerman is legally guilty of murder is twisted logic.

My point is the case still rests on the juries' decision if a reasonable person would have made the decision to shoot and didn't have any alternatives.

I don't know the answer to that.

No one knows what the jury will decide.

But the witnesses have already established the curb is a potentially lethal weapon. Zimmerman was being asailed by Martin with the curb, in some form, playing a role. And Zimmerman was pinned, with no reasonable beleif for retreat, and there was no evidence Zimmerman had hit Martin.

If this was a case where Zimmerman was not a neighborhood watch but walking his dog, with all the same evidence, this would be an open/close case. The fact Zimmerman called the police and THEN cooperated with them fully is what got Zimmerman where he is.

But he could be guilty. But the State has shown nothing more than circumstantial evidence to debunk his claim--but the State presented a ton supporting Zimmerman. A shocking amount actually.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
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Sorry, but its not when it comes to self defense. A racist still has a right to defend their life, like it or not. Besides, there is no evidence he said anything to TM like that which might make Z the aggressor.



Would love to see evidence of the impossible. That would be a new one.

If the sidewalk was there, and the two were on it, its very possible either of their heads could have come in contact with it.

I said nothing about "racism", I assume Zimmerman's animosity was based on his mistaken identity of Martin as a burglar or criminal.

Its potentially relevant as a motive for shooting that isn't self-defense. Or that the reason wasn't self-defense based on reality, but on a mistaken identity.

And its been established in trial that Zimmerman was not on the sidewalk at the time immediately preceding the shooting. Martin did not end up dead on the sidewalk either.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
I said nothing about "racism", I assume Zimmerman's animosity was based on his mistaken identity of Martin as a burglar or criminal.

He had weed in his system, as well as other things, but we know for sure he had weed so he was a criminal.

That sucks huh?

TM was a criminal.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Legally Zimmerman had as much right to be there as Martin. Zimmerman was a legitimate member of the gated community and was breaking no laws.

The core issue is simple: Was Zimmerman's homicide of Martin self defense? No one is contesting Zimmerman shot Martin.

Further, the Prosecution (State) presented Zimmerman's position over and over: They played the the re-enactment, the Hannity interview, clearly had defense witnesses state Zimmerman cooperated and immediately claimed self defense, etc. As the State has presented this as Zimmerman's position, based on the legal talking heads familiar with Florida law, the State has put themselves in the position to prove beyond a reasonable doubt this was not an act of self defense.


The State's position? They keep harping on the injuries were not life threatening and IGNORE / RETREAT from their own witnesses testimony that the curb could be such and there need not be life threatening injuries, just fear of serious injury.

They keep moving the goal post.

Zimmerman has obviously made some mistakes (the bail and passport thing show he can make stupid choices under duress. I was much harder on this until someone asked what I would do if the President was talking about the case, personalizing the victim as a surrogate son, but spoke not a word on communities trying to keep them safe).

Zimmerman may be guilty. He could have started the fight. He may have followed aggressively (quick feet tailing Martin). He could have brandished his gun. He may have verbally threatened. He may have grabbed Martin first.

But the State presented none of this.

Their case is it was dark, rainy, and Martin had a right to be there. Martin knew he was followed by someone "creepy". And the next thing we know Martin is in an MMA position, as forensics proves, in control. The State has never answered why if Martin was afraid why he didn't run. Why didn't he go home. Why didn't he after punching Zimmerman why didn't he run away. Why did he mount Zimmerman.

Again, Zimmerman could be as guilty as the sun rising in the East.

But: there is not beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense.

If I was on the jury I would go as far as saying that there is reasonable doubt the State has failed to prove their own narrative (that Martin was acting in self defense due to Zimmerman's hostile actions). That MAY be the case but there is SIGNIFICANT DOUBT about that being the truth.





Again, two points:

Florida law doesn't negate a person's right to self defense if they begin the conflict. If Zimmerman had spit on Martin and slapped him and Martin got him on the ground and began knifing Zimmerman, Zimmerman would have legal recourse to use lethal force to defend himself.

And there is no evidence that Zimmerman EVER hit Martin. So you can play the game, "There is no evidence Martin hit first." But the State themselves presented Zimmerman as claiming Self Defense.

The fact there is no proof Zimmerman hit Martin goes a long ways to lean the case toward Martin being the physical aggressor.

You have no proof Zimmerman started a physical altercation. None. Falling back on the, "The lack of evidence is no evidence" as *proof* Zimmerman is legally guilty of murder is twisted logic.



No one knows what the jury will decide.

But the witnesses have already established the curb is a potentially lethal weapon. Zimmerman was being asailed by Martin with the curb, in some form, playing a role. And Zimmerman was pinned, with no reasonable beleif for retreat, and there was no evidence Zimmerman had hit Martin.

If this was a case where Zimmerman was not a neighborhood watch but walking his dog, with all the same evidence, this would be an open/close case. The fact Zimmerman called the police and THEN cooperated with them fully is what got Zimmerman where he is.

But he could be guilty. But the State has shown nothing more than circumstantial evidence to debunk his claim--but the State presented a ton supporting Zimmerman. A shocking amount actually.

The state did not present Zimmerman's statements to establish them as factual and true.

There is no "curb". If you mean the sidewalk, there's evidence they were not on the sidewalk at the time of the shooting. That could lead to a conclusion the actual risk to Zimmerman was reduced.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
I said nothing about "racism", I assume Zimmerman's animosity was based on his mistaken identity of Martin as a burglar or criminal.

Its potentially relevant as a motive for shooting that isn't self-defense. Or that the reason wasn't self-defense based on reality, but on a mistaken identity.

And its been established in trial that Zimmerman was not on the sidewalk at the time immediately preceding the shooting. Martin did not end up dead on the sidewalk either.

If this shooting wasn't self defense why wouldn't Z just shoot TM at range before taking a beating? If his goal was to shoot a burglar or criminal or plainly just to kill another human being, why get so close as to allow a beating?

So it doesn't really matter if you don't think the sidewalk is relevant or that it wasn't a factor. Its clear that Z wasn't out to shoot someone but rather reacted to what happened. If he was out to shoot from the beginning, he would have gotten away untouched.
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
The state did not present Zimmerman's statements to establish them as factual and true.

I never said the State used such evidence to establish it as fact or true.

The issue is the State has repeatedly presented witnesses or evidence in relation to self defense and tried to poke holes in such while at the same time trying to paint an alternative narrative that there was no self defense involved. The State conceeded the Defenses position before the Defense ever testified. Zimmerman never had to take the stand and make a self defense claim--the State did that for him.

They cannot withdrawal the evidence, even if they disagree with it (or even if it is wrong!) The State created a percaious situation:

Is Zimmerman's self defense position (as stated by the State) the most accurate? Let's assume they side with the State.

But as self defense has been submitted they have to ask: Was Zimmerman acting in self defense (even if not the State's version)?

Let's assume they say, no, Zimmerman started the conflict. Then on to the next step: Did at any point did Zimmerman retreat (could not retreat? ask for help?) and have fear of potential of great bodily harm?

Even if they are wishy washy on this last point they have to weigh the alternative: Did the Prosecution persent clear evidence supporting their narrative?

All this before the Defense presents their own version.

The point is Zimmerman never needed to take the stand or claim self defense. The State happily conceded this was a case disputing self defense.

Just because the State doesn't agree they cannot retract from evidence the self defense claim or their own witnesses they called that added supporting elements to various self defense narratives.

Of course they had to conceed this position because they have no clear evidence Zimmerman unquestionably hunted Martin down and executed him as early reports claim.

At best the State's case is Zimmerman is a racist, a wannabe cop who wanted to take justice into his own hands. With MMA experience under his belt and a gun bolstering his confidence he felt secure asailing a lighter and younger (minor) victim. Zimmerman, as the State goes, was up to no good. He created a bad situation be harrassing an innocent resident. He flippantly ignored dispatcher "instructions" and in violation followed a suspicious individual while armed (against watch rules). Zimmerman is clearly a man angry and out of control with clear motive and means to murder Martin. The State has also presented that Martin was in a relatively unfamiliar neighborhood and returning from an innocent shopping trip meandering home while talking to a good friend on the phone. When he realized he was being tailed by a "creepy" individual on a dark, rainy night Martin became scared for his life. Martin was so preoccupied with his discussion and fear that he didn't call 911 and Zimmerman caught up to him and they argued. The State believes Zimmerman was hostile and, failing to identify himself, initiated a conflict that Martin had every right to defend himself with physical action. Martin was so fearful, although not harmed, he mounted Zimmerman. But, as the State argues, although Martin was not physically harmed he was very fearful and had a right to continue asailing Zimmerman. In reverse Zimmerman's injuries were minor AND there was no evidence that Zimmerman could believe he was in danger of great bodily harm.

The issue I mentioned wasn't that the State presented the above Narrative, but that each juncture befor the Defense made the claim, the State presented Zimmerman's self defense position. So the jury MUST consider: Was it Zimmerman or Martin defending themself?

TLDR version: It is moving the goal post to fall back on, "The State doesn't believe Zimmerman acted in self defense." I didn't say they did! I said they presented the arguement, tried to debunk it (weakly), tended to focus on debunking the claim (instead of supporting their own narrative--e.g. why didn't Martin run? Why did he mount?) and the jury must consider both the State's version of Zimmerman's position, Zimmerman's position as presented by the Defense, as well as plausible alternatives of "what really happened?" that support self defense over and against the State's, "Martin was attacked and killed" narrative.

Even though the State/Defense have not focused on this much, I would say if I was a juror I would not just be asking, "Did Martin have legitmate cause to physically defend himself?" I would be asking, "If he was so scared why didn't he run?" and "If he was scared, after Zimmerman was down why ddin't he run? Why did he mount him?" And there is a 50/50 chance Zimmerman asked for help at which point as a juror I would have to ask, "OK, Zimmerman attacked, but did this turn into self defense?"

The State has spent very little time addressing these issues. They have spent more time trying to argue the wounds were minor while skirting (conceeding?) the issue of if Zimmerman had a justified belief he could be in more harm.
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
If this shooting wasn't self defense why wouldn't Z just shoot TM at range before taking a beating? If his goal was to shoot a burglar or criminal or plainly just to kill another human being, why get so close as to allow a beating?

So it doesn't really matter if you don't think the sidewalk is relevant or that it wasn't a factor. Its clear that Z wasn't out to shoot someone but rather reacted to what happened. If he was out to shoot from the beginning, he would have gotten away untouched.

Boiling it down the State's arguement is Zimmerman (1) started the conflict (both by aggressively stalking and they insinuate he started the conflict that lead to a fight) and (2) that at no time did Zimmerman have a legimate fear of being serious harmed.

They are not argueming he set out to kill Martin (Murder 1) but he created a hostile environment where Martin legitimately felt fear requiring defense (which explains why Martin hit Zimmerman--it was Martin SYG or self defense) and that Zimmerman not only caused this fight he escalated it beyond a minor physical altercation into Muder 2.

So the State is hoping the jury either agrees that Zimmerman started the fight and at no time was acting in self defense and, if that fails, if he was in a position of defense he was NOT justified to use lethal force as he was never at risk of serious harm--Martin was a small person, a kid (minor), and had barely touched Zimmerman. Zimmerman was clearly the aggressor and, when his assault failed, escalated to muder.

The State want's the jury to believe either/or/both.

They are not pretending Zimmerman hunted Martin down with intent to kill. That would be Murder 1 and required a Grand Jury.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
The state did not present Zimmerman's statements to establish them as factual and true.

There is no "curb". If you mean the sidewalk, there's evidence they were not on the sidewalk at the time of the shooting. That could lead to a conclusion the actual risk to Zimmerman was reduced.

You really will grasp at anything won't you? Between you, Dcal, and sound, the delusion is palpable.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
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It was an unfortunate series of events with mistakes made by both Zimmerman and Martin, but it's pretty obvious to me now that Zimmerman shot in self defense.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
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If there is a race riot over this bs the leadership of the black community needs to do some serious self reflection.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
If there is a race riot over this bs the leadership of the black community needs to do some serious self reflection.


They will just blame whitey for it. If Zimmerman was found guilty then riots would not have happened...That is how the black "leadership" thinks. They never accept responsibility for anything rather they shove blame onto the boogeyman/racism for everything bad that happens with their community.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
30,686
45,769
136
Judge is not allowing txts from TM's phone, on the grounds that someone else could have sent them.

I think it should be allowed if the practice of TM sharing his phone couldn't be established. It speaks to TMs history and attitude towards engaging in fist fights. Fighting over face and reputation seems to have been entirely acceptable to TM and I feel that it's germane to the issue of who was the instigator that night. The trainer confirmed my own observations and feelings on GZ from months ago; he's basically a pussy, possibly harboring short man syndrome too. Those guys talk shit, they don't start shit.
I can totally see TM reacting with violent indignation once he realized he was being followed and questioned by someone who was the equivalent of a mall cop. Especially one who was physically unimposing.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
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They will just blame whitey for it. If Zimmerman was found guilty then riots would not have happened...That is how the black "leadership" thinks. They never accept responsibility for anything rather they shove blame onto the boogeyman/racism for everything bad that happens with their community.
This.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Doppel,

Didn't Martin have a right to stand his ground? He did not initiate the conflict. He was followed around by a stranger who outweighed him by 50 lbs. If Zimmerman hadn't stalked him (against Police instructions), the conflict would have never happened. Did Martin not have the right of self defense?