Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

[Phoenix86]

Meryn fucking Trant?

Well if you're running with the Jamie is Tyrion's champion he has to fight someone. The Mountain only really makes sense if Oberyn is fighting. It would be a double slap in his face if he summoned the Mountain (who is supposedly a fugitive), then had him face anyone other than Oberyn. Also the time it'd take to get him to King's Landing...

OK, so who else would likely defend the crown, is in King's Landing and skilled with a sword? Loras? Possible, but unlikely. Meryn Trant fits the bill.

 

[smackababy]

Well if you're running with the Jamie is Tyrion's champion he has to fight someone. The Mountain only really makes sense if Oberyn is fighting. It would be a double slap in his face if he summoned the Mountain (who is supposedly a fugitive), then had him face anyone other than Oberyn. Also the time it'd take to get him to King's Landing...

OK, so who else would likely defend the crown, is in King's Landing and skilled with a sword? Loras? Possible, but unlikely. Meryn Trant fits the bill.

I was just quoting the Hound, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[zinfamous]

from the audience's point of view.

the writers, however, don't seem to consider that scene to have been a rape.

that, and the entirety of Season 3 was devoted to Jamie's tearing down and redemption. If he isn't supposed to change, then he isn't much use to the story.

I think the rape is still a rape--but to me, the proper interpretation is that he is essentially rejecting the demands his family has put on him and specifically here, his sister's cold black heart. Jamie spent a season and a half exposed to the worst of the worst, and now with that perspective, sees his sister as the supreme bitch that she is. Her self-centered rejection of him when he returned was the last straw. Raping her next to their dead son was basically a "fuck you" to the family.

I'm not saying he will abandon the name and start killing Lannisters, but he definitely sees the name, and its association with their father as a burden. agreeing to step down and make heirs is a bargain to save his brother, more than it is a desire to keep the Lannisters going.

 

[zinfamous]

The biggest hole in the Jamie theory is the crown's champion. You don't have one that makes sense, at best you have only half of that plot line. If you're going to take out a major character it's likely done by another major character. They aren't going to hire random awesome swordsman as a champion then kill Jamie. Hmm, what about Meryn Trant?

I don't even know if that was the Mountain, like someone else said it looked to be set in Essos, it certainly wasn't the right climate for the region where the Hound was heading into the Eyrie.

I think it could be Loras...named by Cersei? Clears up the (unfounded) assumption that the crown needs a real fighter, and takes care of a problem for Cersei.

Also--where is it said that the crown has to choose first? We did see the one trial earlier, but I saw that as some meathead jumping up first and without any thought, not any kind of formal procedure.

Or, Tywin picks Oberyn. ....that clears up some problems for him, doesn't it?

Granted, this wouldn't service the idea that the crown would be forced to select a weak opponent. But as smackababy said, there are others who have been around in service at King's Landing all this time, who have seen some real action and are established to some degree, and who would fit.

 

[Xonim]

I think it could be Loras...named by Cersei? Clears up the (unfounded) assumption that the crown needs a real fighter, and takes care of a problem for Cersei.

This is something I hadn't thought of. But she's have to be sure that Jamie would win, and I don't think she would be.

 

[Phoenix86]

Who picked first in the Eyrie? Birdlady or Tyrion?

 

[smackababy]

Who picked first in the Eyrie? Birdlady or Tyrion?

Birdlady asked who which knight would champion the crown, and a bunch came forward. She then questioned the one who didn't, who replied he didn't want to fight a dwarf. Tyrion then named his champion, was denied, and asked if anyone would represent him.

 

[zinfamous]

This is something I hadn't thought of. But she's have to be sure that Jamie would win, and I don't think she would be.

yeah, ti would be a problem. It is a bit implausible--I think Cersei would want to be rid of Loras, but there is the risk of him killing Jamie.

I don't really think Tywin wants to be rid of Loras, because he needs to keep the tie to the Tryells strong...even though they murdered his king grandson (which is, in the end, meaningless--if not beneficial--to Tywin)

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Why would Tywin pick the Mountain when he's expressly told Oberyn that the Mountain is a fugitive from justice?

See, this is why you and Zin make yourselves look so bad arguing these nonsensical points. All you do with each passing breath is demonstrate that you either don't watch the show, don't understand the show, or both.

When Tywin met Oberyn in the brothel to ask him to be one of the judges he expressly PROMISED to arrange a way to get Gregor and Oberyn together. So Tywin calls Gregor back, Gregor is the Crown's champion and Tywin pays his debt to Oberyn. What part of that is so difficult for you?

 

[Pheran]

from the audience's point of view.

the writers, however, don't seem to consider that scene to have been a rape.

That scene is, I think, the only glaring error in this whole series in adaptation from the book, which speaks well for the quality of the show. But that scene is radically altered, it wasn't rape in the book at all, and it pisses me off.

 

[Phoenix86]

Birdlady asked who which knight would champion the crown, and a bunch came forward. She then questioned the one who didn't, who replied he didn't want to fight a dwarf. Tyrion then named his champion, was denied, and asked if anyone would represent him.

So in that case it was crown/lord/lady/accuser -> accused. In the Hounds fight his opponent was named last. Meh, doesn't really tell us much.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

So in that case it was crown/lord/lady/accuser -> accused. In the Hounds fight his opponent was named last. Meh, doesn't really tell us much.

In the Hounds fight neither side used a champion. Berric was the accuser, Sandor the defendant and each represented his own interest.

 

[Pheran]

"Jaime is being set up as the noble figure" who raped his sister on the corpse of their murdered incest baby, stabbed the very man he was sworn to protect in the back, and pushed a kid out of a window to conceal he is giving it to his sister. Yeah. Real noble.

If you listened to Jaime's explanation, his killing of King Aerys is 100% justified. The rape scene is an obnoxious and unwelcome alteration to the original storyline. There was no excuse for pushing Bran though.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

If you listened to Jaime's explanation, his killing of King Aerys is 100% justified. The rape scene is an obnoxious and unwelcome alteration to the original storyline. There was no excuse for pushing Bran though.

Go back and watch the scene with your eyes open. It wasn't a rape.

 

[smackababy]

So in that case it was crown/lord/lady/accuser -> accused. In the Hounds fight his opponent was named last. Meh, doesn't really tell us much.

It was assumed the Hound would fight for himself in that case, and there weren't exactly a lot of volunteers to get hacked in half by that big fucker. And, the Brothers without Banners aren't exactly following the laws of the land.

 

[zinfamous]

See, this is why you and Zin make yourselves look so bad arguing these nonsensical points. All you do with each passing breath is demonstrate that you either don't watch the show, don't understand the show, or both.

When Tywin met Oberyn in the brothel to ask him to be one of the judges he expressly PROMISED to arrange a way to get Gregor and Oberyn together. So Tywin calls Gregor back, Gregor is the Crown's champion and Tywin pays his debt to Oberyn. What part of that is so difficult for you?

That's certainly plausible. But it's as equal a chance of happening. This does nothing for Tyrion in grabbing the advantage in the trial.

Ignoring the Jamie theory is saying that Tyrion is not nearly as clever as we have been lead to believe up until this point.

nonsense--like thinking it's more plausible for a random extinct family to show up for no reason whatsoever than it is for our most clever protagonist to gain a clear advantage. The former isn't plausible or implausible--it's shitty writing.

 

[Pheran]

Go back and watch the scene with your eyes open. It wasn't a rape.

Yes it was. Based on what was shown in the scene, I don't see how you could interpret it otherwise.

 

[ZaneNBK]

Alternate ending to Tyrion's speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvHK6blDJaQ

 

[sactoking]

In the Hounds fight neither side used a champion. Berric was the accuser, Sandor the defendant and each represented his own interest.

Actually they did. Arya was the accuser and Beric was her champion, though she did not chose him.

 

[zinfamous]

Actually they did. Arya was the accuser and Beric was her champion, though she did not chose him.

I think it's more nuanced than that. The Hound was currently on trial--being bound and accused by the BwB and already defending the charges against him. Arya stepped in with this additional accusation--that the Hound killed her friend, the butcher's boy--this additional evidence of his crimes. I would say that she is more of a witness to the court, already convened.

BwB were essentially accusing him of crimes committed under defense/orders of the crown. Technically, these would all be legal from a feudal perspective. BwB are a loose organization with its own rules, their own common code, I suppose--so the crimes of the Hound speak to a common morality that is made legal by the crown--which is why the BwB exists in the first place. Still, they organize among the same principles as the law, and even improve upon it--convening the trial, based on accusation and crimes committed, allowing the accused to answer to all charges (something that Tyrion seems to be denied), and granting the trial by combat.

But Arya's was the accusation that eventually damned him and forced the combat, so I can see it that way. It's important to note that he was already wanted by the BwB, and they were already trying him.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

See, this is why you and Zin make yourselves look so bad arguing these nonsensical points. All you do with each passing breath is demonstrate that you either don't watch the show, don't understand the show, or both.

When Tywin met Oberyn in the brothel to ask him to be one of the judges he expressly PROMISED to arrange a way to get Gregor and Oberyn together. So Tywin calls Gregor back, Gregor is the Crown's champion and Tywin pays his debt to Oberyn. What part of that is so difficult for you?

I'll admit that I had misremembered that scene, and Tywin indeed promises to arrange a meeting, in which case I'll agree that there's a compelling cause for Tywin to call the Mountain as the crown's champion; get him back to King's Landing using Tyrion's trial as a ruse and Oberyn gets his meeting and will be satisfied. That also squares with the fact that we know the Mountain appears at some point this season. I don't know why they'd delay the trial to wait for the Mountain to return to King's Landing, but it does make more sense than I initially thought.

Go back and watch the scene with your eyes open. It wasn't a rape.

Literally everyone who watched that scene disagrees with you.

That's certainly plausible. But it's as equal a chance of happening. This does nothing for Tyrion in grabbing the advantage in the trial.

Ignoring the Jamie theory is saying that Tyrion is not nearly as clever as we have been lead to believe up until this point.

nonsense--like thinking it's more plausible for a random extinct family to show up for no reason whatsoever than it is for our most clever protagonist to gain a clear advantage. The former isn't plausible or implausible--it's shitty writing.

In what way is Tyrion the most clever protagonist? He was set up as cunning in the first couple seasons, but since his father arrived in King's Landing, Tyrion has been outwitted by Tywin at every turn. He's no longer the Hand, Shae gets kicked out, he gets married off against his will, he gets framed in the most asinine way possible and everyone he counted on (save Jaime and possibly Bronn) has abandoned him. He's not as smart as he likes to present himself and he's really shitty at actually playing the game. When he had power he used it to make enemies out of people like Cersei and Pycelle and it came back to bite him in the ass in a very predictable way. Now he's engaged in yet another battle of wits with Tywin; are you really taking Tyrion in that contest when he's been beaten every single time he's gone up against his father before?

 

[smackababy]

I think it's more nuanced than that. The Hound was currently on trial--being bound and accused by the BwB and already defending the charges against him. Arya stepped in with this additional accusation--that the Hound killed her friend, the butcher's boy--this additional evidence of his crimes. I would say that she is more of a witness to the court, already convened.

BwB were essentially accusing him of crimes committed under defense/orders of the crown. Technically, these would all be legal from a feudal perspective. BwB are a loose organization with its own rules, their own common code, I suppose--so the crimes of the Hound speak to a common morality that is made legal by the crown--which is why the BwB exists in the first place. Still, they organize among the same principles as the law, and even improve upon it--convening the trial, based on accusation and crimes committed, allowing the accused to answer to all charges (something that Tyrion seems to be denied), and granting the trial by combat.

But Arya's was the accusation that eventually damned him and forced the combat, so I can see it that way. It's important to note that he was already wanted by the BwB, and they were already trying him.

Exactly this. The Hound was on trial and defending himself, rather well actually, until Arya accused him of murdering the butcher's boy. His defense for that was "well, yeah I did it but it was just orders." and that wasn't going to fly. He then got a trial by combat, because, he isn't talking his way out of it. He then won his trial by cutting down Berric (who happened to be resurrected) and gaining his freedom, minus his silver.

 

[zinfamous]

Literally everyone who watched that scene disagrees with you.

No means Yes!

In what way is Tyrion the most clever protagonist? He was set up as cunning in the first couple seasons, but since his father arrived in King's Landing, Tyrion has been outwitted by Tywin at every turn. He's no longer the Hand, Shae gets kicked out, he gets married off against his will, he gets framed in the most asinine way possible and everyone he counted on (save Jaime and possibly Bronn) has abandoned him. He's not as smart as he likes to present himself and he's really shitty at actually playing the game. When he had power he used it to make enemies out of people like Cersei and Pycelle and it came back to bite him in the ass in a very predictable way. Now he's engaged in yet another battle of wits with Tywin; are you really taking Tyrion in that contest when he's been beaten every single time he's gone up against his father before?

Personally, I think Lady Oleanna is the smartest around, but as for Tyrion, that is all he has--his wits. I'm not sure that his being directly railroaded into this trial due to the machinations of LittleFinger and quite possibly his own father (at the very least, the willingness of his father to place the blame on Tyrion out of convenience for himself), is justification for his no longer being clever or resourceful.

Tyrion has gone through shit the last two seasons, but I don't think being subjected to events out of his control, much less complicated plots that few would have foreseen, lessens his intelligence. What we do know is that he is more than capable of maneuvering his way through this, as we saw him survive an earlier trial for his life, overstep his sister and plan the strategy to defeat Stannis, and to take care of various internal threats to himself and the family while acting as Hand.

I don't think he made enemies of Cersei or Tywin through what we have seen--they have always been enemies. The evidence--much of it true, albeit circumstantial and intentionally designed to implicate him--is clearly stacked against him. In this situation, he really has no other alternative. At some point, there has to be a turn. (whether or not he wins out is a different matter). At this moment, he has wrested control of the trial and I do believe his options are very limited as to how he can turn this over on his father and sister.

 

[smackababy]

They don't even allow him to defend himself. When Trant was saying Tyrion threatened him and then called the King names, he couldn't even use the defense of "Joffrey was having Trant strip and beat Sansa, a valuable hostage at the time, in court."

Also, remember Varys was helping Tyrion before this trial. He is not helping him as such now.

 

[cubby1223]

See, this is why you and Zin make yourselves look so bad arguing these nonsensical points. All you do with each passing breath is demonstrate that you either don't watch the show, don't understand the show, or both.

When Tywin met Oberyn in the brothel to ask him to be one of the judges he expressly PROMISED to arrange a way to get Gregor and Oberyn together. So Tywin calls Gregor back, Gregor is the Crown's champion and Tywin pays his debt to Oberyn. What part of that is so difficult for you?

I talked about that earlier in this thread.

Problem is, this is a contradiction. The deal was if Oberyn serves justice to Tyrion (a.k.a. find him guilty as Tywin has declared), then Tywin would set up the opportunity for Tyrion to serve justice to the Mountain.

If killing the Mountain is his goal, he is motivated to declare Tyrion guilty, not to champion for his innocence. Personally, if I were Oberyn, I'd sit it out. I mean, there are two possible outcomes if the Mountain champions for the crown. (1) He wins, Tyrion is found guilty, and Tywin then pays back the debt with the opportunity to serve justice to the Mountain, or (2) The Mountain loses, Tyrion is found innocent not by Oberyn's sword skills, and justice has been served.

Oberyn is a smart guy, take your chances the Mountain will be killed off, and if not you have your chance in round 2, maybe even with a less than full strength Mountain, and have the opportunity to fight on your own terms more suitable to winning.