Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

[GagHalfrunt]

Like the dornish prince he would hold ill will towards the man who actually did the killing in Tywinn. Getting close to Tywinns son isnt a bad idea if thats what you want. This show has lots of Sins of the Father motifs.

That.

I'm not saying that Bronn is a Reyne as the game he's playing here would require an incredible degree of foresight and patience. That's a pretty big leap. But IF there were a couple of Reyne survivors out there looking for a chance at revenge against House Lannister watching Tyrion get executed would accomplish nothing. Getting close to Tyrion in the hopes of hurting the Lannisters from the inside might be an incredible longshot, but it would be a better shot than anything else available. If any Reynes survived they wouldn't have the forces or the money to directly attack the Lannisters, it would have to be done covertly. So while it's unlikely that Bronn is a Reyne it is still completely possible and plausible that Bronn *could* be a Reyne.

 

[zinfamous]

You can assume that dragons will fly out of his ass and win the fight, it's about as plausible as any of the other nonsense scenarios you're fixated on. Jaime will have a ringside seat, nothing more.

Entirely possible that I am wrong. Of course, many told me that The Lannisters having empty gold mines was a "nonsense scenario of mine."

...Just saying.

bear in mind--the impetus for my thinking it will play out this way is that it is a chess move by Tyrion, who is fond of such things, and it really is the only move that makes sense right now..considering the precious minutes of screen time devoted largely to setting up this scenario. Unless it was all to mislead us.

 

[zinfamous]

That.

I'm not saying that Bronn is a Reyne as the game he's playing here would require an incredible degree of foresight and patience. That's a pretty big leap. But IF there were a couple of Reyne survivors out there looking for a chance at revenge against House Lannister watching Tyrion get executed would accomplish nothing. Getting close to Tyrion in the hopes of hurting the Lannisters from the inside might be an incredible longshot, but it would be a better shot than anything else available. If any Reynes survived they wouldn't have the forces or the money to directly attack the Lannisters, it would have to be done covertly. So while it's unlikely that Bronn is a Reyne it is still completely possible and plausible that Bronn *could* be a Reyne.

Yet it's entirely implausible that Jamie will fight for his brother whom he loves and believes to be innocent, against his father whose domineering nature he despises...despite a generous amount of screen time actually leading to that very distinct possibility.


..I don't get it.


By the way--whotf are the Reynes?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

By the way--whotf are the Reynes?

The family whose destruction inspired the song "The Rains of Castamere." After Margaery refers to Cersei as her sister, Cersei gives the speech about the fight between House Lannister and House Reyne, the second richest family, and how the Lannisters obliterated their house so completely that none of them remain. It served as a thinly veiled threat against the "second richest" family, the Tyrells. Doubly so when Cersei told Margaery if she ever called her "sister" again she'd have her killed.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Yet it's entirely implausible that Jamie will fight for his brother whom he loves and believes to be innocent, against his father whose domineering nature he despises...despite a generous amount of screen time actually leading to that very distinct possibility.


..I don't get it.


By the way--whotf are the Reynes?

Maybe if you knew who the Reynes were you would have been paying enough attention to the series to understand why Tyrion choosing Jaime to champion him with his left hand is the biggest idiocy mentioned in this thread.

While there is ZERO evidence to suggest that Bronn is indeed a Reyne there is also ZERO evidence to disprove it. It's crazy, but it's possible.

But there is a plethora of evidence to show why Tyrion won't pick Jaime as his champion. Jaime sparing against Bronn wasn't filler, it clearly showed that Jaime is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the swordsman he used to be. He's not any good left-handed. Period. Maybe someday he will learn to be, but he is not good now and Tryion does not have the option to wait. The idea that Tyrion will ask a guy that can't fight effectively to fight for his life is crazy and NOT possible.

There's the difference to anyone paying attention. One is far-fetched and yet still possible, the other is just far-fetched.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Maybe if you knew who the Reynes were you would have been paying enough attention to the series to understand why Tyrion choosing Jaime to champion him with his left hand is the biggest idiocy mentioned in this thread.

While there is ZERO evidence to suggest that Bronn is indeed a Reyne there is also ZERO evidence to disprove it. It's crazy, but it's possible.

But there is a plethora of evidence to show why Tyrion won't pick Jaime as his champion. Jaime sparing against Bronn wasn't filler, it clearly showed that Jaime is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the swordsman he used to be. He's not any good left-handed. Period. Maybe someday he will learn to be, but he is not good now and Tryion does not have the option to wait. The idea that Tyrion will ask a guy that can't fight effectively to fight for his life is crazy and NOT possible.

There's the difference to anyone paying attention. One is far-fetched and yet still possible, the other is just far-fetched.

The entire reason Tyrion would choose Jaime is to keep Tywin/Cersei from nominating a good champion of their own as they don't want to see Jaime killed. It continues the farce of the trial, but it shifts the power balance to Tyrion as he has a champion who his judges have a legitimate interest in keeping alive.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

The entire reason Tyrion would choose Jaime is to keep Tywin/Cersei from nominating a good champion of their own as they don't want to see Jaime killed. It continues the farce of the trial, but it shifts the power balance to Tyrion as he has a champion who his judges have a legitimate interest in keeping alive.

This is like trying to explain particle physics to a spider monkey, although the monkey might be capable of learning someday.

The Crown can't pick some low-rent fake knight to avoid hurting Jaime. If they've gone this far to buy witnesses like Shae they HAVE to get the guilty verdict and they have to pick somebody known far and wide as being a badass.

Odds of Tyrion picking Jaime: 10 trillion to 1
Odds of the Crown picking Gregor since they have nobody else of that stature now: 1 to a trillion.

The only thing left open to debate is who Tyrion picks after the Crown picks The Mountain. Odds are that it will be Oberyn, the only other possible choices are Tyrion trying to pick someone out of left field like Sandor, Barristan Selmy or Jon Snow to stall for time. But it damn sure won't be Jaime.

 

[zinfamous]

Maybe if you knew who the Reynes were you would have been paying enough attention to the series to understand why Tyrion choosing Jaime to champion him with his left hand is the biggest idiocy mentioned in this thread.

While there is ZERO evidence to suggest that Bronn is indeed a Reyne there is also ZERO evidence to disprove it. It's crazy, but it's possible.

But there is a plethora of evidence to show why Tyrion won't pick Jaime as his champion. Jaime sparing against Bronn wasn't filler, it clearly showed that Jaime is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the swordsman he used to be. He's not any good left-handed. Period. Maybe someday he will learn to be, but he is not good now and Tryion does not have the option to wait. The idea that Tyrion will ask a guy that can't fight effectively to fight for his life is crazy and NOT possible.

There's the difference to anyone paying attention. One is far-fetched and yet still possible, the other is just far-fetched.

It dawned on me as I was away washing equipment ahead of today's prep--Reynes of Castamere, etc.

Related to us in one speech by Cersei, and again through background music a few times. Yes, I recall that. It's background history stuff that doesn't really exist in the show's time period, only to serve as subtext for Lannister history.

I find it odd that you would suggest something that has been mentioned merely in passing has the same chance to occur as something that has been shoved in our face over the course of 4 seasons now and especially the last 4 episodes.

Anyway, you continue to ignore the entire point of my theory. Tyrion choosing Jamie has nothing to do with Jamie's ability to fight--it has to do with forcing Tywin to make an unhappy choice. Do you get that? Have you played chess? that is all I have been saying.

What occurs after that, well, who knows. Granted, I do believe that Jamie will then choose to fight and the results of the fight have been foreshadowed, but anything is possible. Tyrion naming Jamie as his champion, though, is almost entirely certain. It's a play against his father, and you have to admit how obvious that is.

as I mentioned earlier, the show is funny with time. Jamie has been training with Bronn for at least a fortnight (as Tywin mentioned some episodes ago as to when the trial would happen). We have seen them spar only twice. We also saw that Bronn taught Jamie how to fight properly--use his disadvantage to his advantage. I have said time and time again that these scenes are anything but filler--they are foreshadowing exactly what will happen.

See, you and I are looking at the same data, yet coming to different conclusions.

 

[zinfamous]

The entire reason Tyrion would choose Jaime is to keep Tywin/Cersei from nominating a good champion of their own as they don't want to see Jaime killed. It continues the farce of the trial, but it shifts the power balance to Tyrion as he has a champion who his judges have a legitimate interest in keeping alive.

EXACTLY. why is everyone else so slow with this?

Shit, the whole "trial by combat" outcome was first proposed by JEDI in this thread weeks ago, then a number of people latched on to the "Jamie fighting for Tyrion" theory very soon after that. Now 2 or 3 episodes after we first started thinking about this plotline, the show has done nothing but lead down that line.

 

[zinfamous]

This is like trying to explain particle physics to a spider monkey, although the monkey might be capable of learning someday.

The Crown can't pick some low-rent fake knight to avoid hurting Jaime. If they've gone this far to buy witnesses like Shae they HAVE to get the guilty verdict and they have to pick somebody known far and wide as being a badass.

Odds of Tyrion picking Jaime: 10 trillion to 1
Odds of the Crown picking Gregor since they have nobody else of that stature now: 1 to a trillion.

The only thing left open to debate is who Tyrion picks after the Crown picks The Mountain. Odds are that it will be Oberyn, the only other possible choices are Tyrion trying to pick someone out of left field like Sandor, Barristan Selmy or Jon Snow to stall for time. But it damn sure won't be Jaime.

It seems we are watching a different show.

 

[smackababy]

Tyrion should pick Rick Grimes and Tywin should pick Shane. Epic battle to the death, part 2!

 

[nageov3t]

The entire reason Tyrion would choose Jaime is to keep Tywin/Cersei from nominating a good champion of their own as they don't want to see Jaime killed. It continues the farce of the trial, but it shifts the power balance to Tyrion as he has a champion who his judges have a legitimate interest in keeping alive.

fwiw it's worth, while trial by combat can be to the death, it doesn't necessarily have to be. one can yield.

(sorry for the random backstory info, don't think it counts as spoilers since it's not even from the GoT books... it's from the Hedge Knight novellas)

 

[Phoenix86]

Entirely possible that I am wrong. Of course, many told me that The Lannisters having empty gold mines was a "nonsense scenario of mine."

...Just saying.

bear in mind--the impetus for my thinking it will play out this way is that it is a chess move by Tyrion, who is fond of such things, and it really is the only move that makes sense right now..considering the precious minutes of screen time devoted largely to setting up this scenario. Unless it was all to mislead us.

They have spent as much time on Oberyn and his motivations. The payoff for the Jamie arc could come later, or not even this season at all.

 

[Phoenix86]

The family whose destruction inspired the song "The Rains of Castamere." After Margaery refers to Cersei as her sister, Cersei gives the speech about the fight between House Lannister and House Reyne, the second richest family, and how the Lannisters obliterated their house so completely that none of them remain. It served as a thinly veiled threat against the "second richest" family, the Tyrells. Doubly so when Cersei told Margaery if she ever called her "sister" again she'd have her killed.

Which she completely ignored and said "not sure if I will call you sister or mother", only this time around Cersei seemed OK with it.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

This is like trying to explain particle physics to a spider monkey, although the monkey might be capable of learning someday.

The Crown can't pick some low-rent fake knight to avoid hurting Jaime. If they've gone this far to buy witnesses like Shae they HAVE to get the guilty verdict and they have to pick somebody known far and wide as being a badass.

Odds of Tyrion picking Jaime: 10 trillion to 1
Odds of the Crown picking Gregor since they have nobody else of that stature now: 1 to a trillion.

The only thing left open to debate is who Tyrion picks after the Crown picks The Mountain. Odds are that it will be Oberyn, the only other possible choices are Tyrion trying to pick someone out of left field like Sandor, Barristan Selmy or Jon Snow to stall for time. But it damn sure won't be Jaime.

Why would Tywin pick the Mountain when he's expressly told Oberyn that the Mountain is a fugitive from justice? It's not like the Mountain is the only warrior in the kingdom who is capable of beating whoever stands up in Tyrion's defense, and choosing him accomplishes two things; it drags the trial out, as someone has to go find the Mountain and bring him back to King's Landing, and it pisses off the Martells, who not coincidentally are currently in possession of Tywin's granddaughter. Tywin doesn't want EITHER of those things to happen, and if the show has taught us nothing else, it's that he schemes as well as anybody else, so there's absolutely no reason for him to get the Mountain involved and lay waste to whatever plots he's already got in place. He could pick literally any knight in the Kingsguard and reasonably assume they would beat Tyrion's champion, whoever that may be. It just doesn't make any sense.

I can see two scenarios where the Mountain gets called in. First, Cersei does it before Tywin has a chance to name a champion, in which case he overrules her as Hand of the King. Second, he calls the Mountain but promises Oberyn that after the trial by combat, the Mountain will stand trial for his own crimes (such as the murder of Oberyn's sister); then again, if that guy requests a trial by combat, who takes him on? Oberyn? Again, it doesn't make any sense for Tywin to acknowledge he still has any control over what the Mountain does or he's still culpable for the death of Elia Martell in Oberyn's eyes. That said, I will concede that it's likely that the Mountain gets brought in, as we know for a fact that he appears in this season, and there's really no better option for bringing him in unless Sandor and Arya bump into him on the road to the Eyrie. But it doesn't make a lick of sense.

And I disagree with you about Jaime. We've had a cubic shit-ton of foreshadowing, from his conversation with Tyrion to his pleading with his father to his training sessions with Bronn and continually cutting to him looking upset during the trial. He's being set up as this noble figure who is the only one who will come to the aid of his brother. The show isn't usually very subtle with foreshadowing, nor does it typically set those things up only to completely reverse course for some sort of of "GOTCHA" moment. The whole first season was filled with foreshadowing that Littlefinger would betray Ned, and lo and behold, he betrayed Ned. Even shocking events, ie the Red Wedding, are set up by characters talking about how untrustworthy Walder Frey is. Why bother with all this foreshadowing that Jaime will at least attempt to be his brother's champion just to abandon it?

 

[zinfamous]

fwiw it's worth, while trial by combat can be to the death, it doesn't necessarily have to be. one can yield.

(sorry for the random backstory info, don't think it counts as spoilers since it's not even from the GoT books... it's from the Hedge Knight novellas)

IIRC, that's how it played out in the aery--I think birdlady's champion yielded, and Bronn looked for confirmation. She nodded agreement, as if to tell him to dispatch the guy. I could be misremembering, but I always thought that Bronn only sent him into the void after approval from birdlady.

 

[zinfamous]

Which she completely ignored and said "not sure if I will call you sister or mother", only this time around Cersei seemed OK with it.

Yeah, that was odd. I still think Cersei is up to to something. I saw Margeary as playing with her on that comment, and didn't get the reaction she expected.

 

[zinfamous]

They have spent as much time on Oberyn and his motivations. The payoff for the Jamie arc could come later, or not even this season at all.

certainly. But I'm starting to think that Tywin will call the bluff...and Jamie ends up dead this week! D:

and as others have mentioned the mountain dude being shown in this coming week's episode...why is not equally plausible that he appears because he runs into his brother and Arya?

 

[GagHalfrunt]

It seems we are watching a different show.

Nope, same show. I understand it, you don't.

In the only trial by combat shown in which champions were used, the prosecution picked its champion BEFORE the accused picked his to counter, so that right there would negate that whole inane crap about Tyrion picking Jaime to force the crown into picking somebody to not hurt him.

The Crown will pick Gregor
Tyrion will not pick Jaime.

That much is certain.

 

[smackababy]

"Jaime is being set up as the noble figure" who raped his sister on the corpse of their murdered incest baby, stabbed the very man he was sworn to protect in the back, and pushed a kid out of a window to conceal he is giving it to his sister. Yeah. Real noble.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

So I just rewatched the scene with Tywin and Oberyn talking about the mountain. He never says the mountain is a fugitive. Just that he could arrange a meeting for Oberyn to talk to the mountain.

The mountain was a fugitive from Ned Stark as hand of the king. He was always following Tywin's orders. Sandor Clegane "The Hound" is the only fugitive in the riverlands that has been mentioned. The mountain is still a bannerman for house Lannister under their control.

 

[zinfamous]

Nope, same show. I understand it, you don't.

Well, I guess we'll see then, won't we?

 

[nageov3t]

"Jaime is being set up as the noble figure" who raped his sister on the corpse of their murdered incest baby, stabbed the very man he was sworn to protect in the back, and pushed a kid out of a window to conceal he is giving it to his sister. Yeah. Real noble.

from the audience's point of view.

the writers, however, don't seem to consider that scene to have been a rape.

 

[Phoenix86]

certainly. But I'm starting to think that Tywin will call the bluff...and Jamie ends up dead this week! D:

and as others have mentioned the mountain dude being shown in this coming week's episode...why is not equally plausible that he appears because he runs into his brother and Arya?

The biggest hole in the Jamie theory is the crown's champion. You don't have one that makes sense, at best you have only half of that plot line. If you're going to take out a major character it's likely done by another major character. They aren't going to hire random awesome swordsman as a champion then kill Jamie. Hmm, what about Meryn Trant?

I don't even know if that was the Mountain, like someone else said it looked to be set in Essos, it certainly wasn't the right climate for the region where the Hound was heading into the Eyrie.

 

[smackababy]

The biggest hole in the Jamie theory is the crown's champion. You don't have one that makes sense, at best you have only half of that plot line. If you're going to take out a major character it's likely done by another major character. They aren't going to hire random awesome swordsman as a champion then kill Jamie. Hmm, what about Meryn Trant?

I don't even know if that was the Mountain, like someone else said it looked to be set in Essos, it certainly wasn't the right climate for the region where the Hound was heading into the Eyrie.

Meryn fucking Trant?