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Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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dmoney1980

Platinum Member
Jan 17, 2008
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Can you guys confirm if it's possible to have Arya and the Hound cross paths again? Arya is heading south to kill Cersei but I don't recall where the brotherhood without banners were stationed in this episode. Would make for an interesting plot twist.

Also, as much as I would like to see the Clegane bowl, I'd be equally interested in seeing mountain v. Arya in a tale of David v. Goliath
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,827
479
136
Can you guys confirm if it's possible to have Arya and the Hound cross paths again? Arya is heading south to kill Cersei but I don't recall where the brotherhood without banners were stationed in this episode. Would make for an interesting plot twist.

Also, as much as I would like to see the Clegane bowl, I'd be equally interested in seeing mountain v. Arya in a tale of David v. Goliath
Well they are both currently alive and on the same continent so yes it is possible. The Hound was more to the north already as he was in an area that was covered in snow while Arya was not.

I don't know that the mountain can be killed in his current form. At least not by random stabbing or throat cutting. Probably needs burning or dismemberment.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
1,993
126
Reverse Dunkirk? I'm sure there are some fishing boats they could commandeer or something. And I am fairly certain she only detonated the wildfire that was under the Sept. I am betting there is much more still under other locations in the city based on Tyrion listing off all the places that were rigged to blow. And it's not like they have a counter in the corner of the screen keeping track of how many men each side has left. It's TV they have exactly however many men and however much materials as they need for the given scene.
1) You're betting there is much more wildfire based on what? Your own desire for a plan you pulled out of your ass to be true? There was one known cache of wildfire, Cersei blew it up.

2) They don't need a counter for anyone that's paying attention. The crown has no sea power, that's been discussed in at least a dozen scenes whenever they're talking strategy. They can't sail men in bulk anywhere.

3) And for anyone paying attention, they have very few men. Hire somebody to explain the show to you if you don't understand it yourself. There was a scene of Cersei and Jaime standing on the painted map lamenting that they're surrounded. Their alliances are gone. They had tentative alliances with Dorne and the Tyrells. They were her reserve forces. She's got none left now that she blew up the Tyrells and Dorne hates her. She doesn't know if she can hold King's Landing, but in your mind she can pull men out of thin air to take a place with no value? Seriously, what kind of dope are you smoking. At this point Cersei has NOTHING. She can't spread out her few remaining forces to deny Dany a landing spot because even if she could Dany could land literally anywhere else.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
1,993
126
Can you guys confirm if it's possible to have Arya and the Hound cross paths again? Arya is heading south to kill Cersei but I don't recall where the brotherhood without banners were stationed in this episode. Would make for an interesting plot twist.

Also, as much as I would like to see the Clegane bowl, I'd be equally interested in seeing mountain v. Arya in a tale of David v. Goliath
Sure it's possible. Arya is moving south from the Riverlands heading towards Kings Landing. And AFAIK the BWB is somewhere in the Riverlands, so they're not too far apart now and they could easily wind up someplace together. But I don't think you're going to see Mountain vs Arya. They've still got everything in place for the Clegane Bowl, Mountain fighting for Cersei and The Hound for the resistance forces. Those two eventually have to fight, if they don't the fans are going to string up GRRM and the showrunners.

Arya is going to do something important later on, it's just more likely that she's going to do it to help Jon and Sansa. If she does wind up whacking the Mountain it will be a last second sneak attack to save Sandor at the very end of the Sandor/Gregor fight.
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,827
479
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Ok, I'm bored so I will bite. For the record Cersi is in a terrible position and cannot possibly defend her lands from all the threats even individually they are all probably more than she can take. Garrisoning and holding Dragonstone would be almost impossible given everything we know.

1) You're betting there is much more wildfire based on what? Your own desire for a plan you pulled out of your ass to be true? There was one known cache of wildfire, Cersei blew it up.
S2E5, the pyromancers have been ordered to make as much as possible by Cersi. I would assume that she has not ordered them to stop since she seems to love the stuff.
S3E5 Jamie says the king had caches of wildfire everywhere, "Beneath the Sept of Baelor, the slums of Flea Bottom, under houses, stables, taverns, even beneath the Red Keep itself."
S6E9 Tyrion talks about the caches, "Probably not. Well he told my brother and Jaime told me. He had caches of wildfire hidden under the Red Keep, the Guild Halls, the Sept of Baelor — all the major thoroughfares."

In Blackwater they used the wildfire Tyrion got from under the dragonpits. The Sept of Baelor was already rigged to blow. That leave several caches still remaining not to mention any more that has been produced by the pyromancers.

2) They don't need a counter for anyone that's paying attention. The crown has no sea power, that's been discussed in at least a dozen scenes whenever they're talking strategy. They can't sail men in bulk anywhere.
She did have access to quite a bit of sea power, right up until Euron left the hall. All it would have taken was Cersi accepting his offer for the moment and telling him to take 1,000 men and provisions to Dragonstone then guarding the entrance of the bay against Danys fleet. Could Dany turn around and go pretty much anywhere else? Sure. But that buys Cersi time.

3) And for anyone paying attention, they have very few men. Hire somebody to explain the show to you if you don't understand it yourself. There was a scene of Cersei and Jaime standing on the painted map lamenting that they're surrounded. Their alliances are gone. They had tentative alliances with Dorne and the Tyrells. They were her reserve forces. She's got none left now that she blew up the Tyrells and Dorne hates her. She doesn't know if she can hold King's Landing, but in your mind she can pull men out of thin air to take a place with no value? Seriously, what kind of dope are you smoking. At this point Cersei has NOTHING. She can't spread out her few remaining forces to deny Dany a landing spot because even if she could Dany could land literally anywhere else.
I have no illusions about them being able to man the borders, King's Landing and secure the shoreline with the men they should have left. But my point is that this is a TV show and they can do whatever they want. Like pulling 8,000 men out of their ass to end the siege at Riverrun. A castle that was defended by only a few hundred men. Dragonstone could be held by a few hundred men just as easily as Riverrun, probably easier seeing the look of it. Granted the dragons may be able to just melt the damn place but Cersi still doesn't believe that are what they are so that wouldn't factor into the decision.

Yes Dany could land anywhere else but they believed she would land at Dragonstone. A castle which guards the entrance to Blackwater Bay and is known as extremely difficult to breach and can be held by a relatively small garrison against a vastly larger force. To literally anyone else Dragonstone is useless but to the person sitting in King's Landing worried about a naval invasion it is worth quite a bit more. And to the person looking to take King's Landing with a naval invasion it is almost priceless.



So given everything we have seen in the show could one of these options been used by Cersi? Yes. Would it have made a difference in Dany standing at the table in Dragonstone? Probably not at the end of the day. I already said I was not surprised the castle was empty based on real world logistics and knowledge of the situation it makes perfect sense. But based on Cersi and Jaime's conversation I expected the show to do something. Even when the ships we pulling up to the island I was still expecting the Iron Fleet to pop out somewhere.
 
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SKORPI0

Lifer
Jan 18, 2000
17,335
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I've never read the books or watched an episode of the show, but heard about the nude scenes/naked women. Is it worth watching/spending my precious time to do so? ;)
Would the book/show be popular without nudity/violence? The local library has seasons 1-6 available in Blu-ray.
 
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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,122
439
136
One thing I thought was odd about this episode is Dragonstone being empty. I mean I know Stanis left it, but why wouldn't someone else take it? They fought like crazy over Riverrun, yet this perfect giant castle on the ocean where they know Dani will land is just empty with the welcome mat out for her?
I agree.. someone would have been living there. At the least it would had some staff there. I'm surprised that some cousin of Stanis hadn't moved in and declared himself Lord. Just because Stannis left it with most of his people I'm surprised there wasn't a soul there.

There's a million similar things in a million shows/movies that could be said the same. It's a minor "flaw" that they (and we) need to accept to move the story along. Maybe there were people there and they saw 1,000 ships and 3 dragons approaching and they got the fuck out. Maybe an Unsullied landing party came before Dany and cleared house. They can't show every_fucking_little_thing in every_fucking_episode.


Fun fact: Ed Sheeran left Twitter due to backlash.
My only issue with this is, this show is normally really good about big plot holes. There was a thousand ways to say that it's "mostly empty and those that are there don't matter". To have her show up to Westeros and have a empty castle waiting for her is way too convenient for this show.


When Stannis left who was in position to take it and garrison it? All the people that were loyal to the crown were otherwise occupied. And it's a freaking island, so for someone to set up shop there they're need both an army and a fleet of ships. The people that had ships didn't want it and the people that had an army couldn't use it.
I would have guessed that the crown would have gifted it at the least to some minor house. It wasn't completely nothing, otherwise why did Robert put his brother there? It has to hold some value. People like Littlefinger would have jumped at the chance to be the Lord of anything, and Dragonstone isn't some shack. It was empty long enough for dust to be everywhere, so it's bizarre that no one tried to take it for themselves. Some minor house would have tried if for no other reason to pretend they matter more.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
13,909
2,222
126
I've never read the books or watched an episode of the show, but heard about the nude scenes/naked women. Is it worth watching/spending my precious time to do so? ;)
Would the book/show be popular without nudity/violence? The local library has seasons 1-6 available in Blu-ray.
Read the books. By the time you finish them, there is a non-zero probability that hack Martin will have finally put out another one. Or he'll die and someone else will.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,207
65
91
Damn 63!
Arya Stark has become one of the most ruthless killers in Westeros. For the last six seasons, she’s been driven by revenge, even keeping a list of people she means to make suffer for what they’ve done to House Stark. Now in Season 7, with the powers of the Faceless Men in her repertoire, she’s become a seriously formidable assassin. Here’s everybody who’s died by Arya’s hand (or will).

Stable boy (Season 1)
Arya’s first kill was almost accidental. She used needle to stab an unnamed Stable Boy as she was fleeing the Red Keep, just as Lannister soldiers were rounding up and executing all House Stark’s people in King’s Landing.

Kill count: 1

The Tickler (Season 2)
After she saves Jaqen H’ghar’s life (along with two others, who will come up later), the Faceless Man offers Arya a repayment: Name three people, and Jaqen will kill them. The first name she gives him is the Tickler, the torturer at Lannister-occupied Harrenhal. Jaqen breaks his neck.

Kill count: 2

Ser Amory Lorch (Season 2)
The second name Arya gives Jaqen is Amory Lorch, a Lannister knight. Lorch catches Arya with a message she stole from Lord Tywin. Arya has him killed before he has a chance to tell Tywin that she’s a traitor, and Jaqen gets him with a poison dart.

Kill count: 3

A Frey soldier after the Red Wedding (Season 3)
Not long after escaping the Twins and the massacre of the Red Wedding, Arya and the Hound happen across four Frey soldiers. Arya approaches them asking for food, then brutally stabs one who was telling the others how they mounted the head of Robb Stark’s direwolf, Grey Wind, on the King in the North’s headless body. Arya tells the Hound the soldier is specifically the first man she’s killed.

Kill count: 4

A Lannister soldier at the Inn of the Crossroads (Season 4)
Traveling with the Hound, Arya happens across a handful of Lannister soldiers in an inn. Arya recognizes them as some of the soldiers who intercepted her and her friends leaving King’s Landing. They recognize the Hound and start a fight, and Arya kills one the Hound has injured.

Kill count: 5

Polliver (Season 4)
In the same fight at the Inn at the Crossroads, Arya takes the chance to reclaim her sword, Needle, from the man who stole it. She stabs the injured Polliver in the throat with Needle, the same way he killed her friend Lommy when Polliver captured her, Gendry and Hot Pie near King’s Landing.

Kill count: 6

Rorge (Season 4)
Back when Arya met Jaqen H’ghar in Season 2, she was traveling with Yoren, a man of the Night’s Watch. Yoren had Jaqen and two others locked in a cage atop a cart. Arya freed Jaqen and the others, one of whom, Rorge, had threatened to sexually assault her. When Arya and the Hound were attacked by Rorge later, she stabbed him in the gut with Needle.

Kill count: 7

Ser Meryn Trant (Season 5)
Ser Meryn is the guy who killed Arya’s sword instructor, Syrio Forel, back in King’s Landing in Season 1. When he arrives in Braavos, she gets her revenge by borrowing a face from the House of Black and White and pretending to be a brothel girl. She brutally stabs out his eyes and then slits his throat — but as punishment, Jaqen H’ghar strikes her blind.

Kill count: 8

The Waif (Season 6)
Arya refuses to murder the actress Lady Crane for the Faceless Men, so Jaqen sends the nameless girl known as the Waif to kill Arya. The Waif nearly succeeds, chasing Arya all through Braavos, before Arya leads her into a dark room and dispatches her off-screen with Needle.

Kill count: 9

Lothar Frey and “Black” Walder Rivers (Season 6)
Arya leaves Braavos after defeating the Waif, intent to be Arya Stark rather than no one. She heads to the Twins, where she gets her revenge on the Freys. Off-screen, she kills Lord Walder Frey’s two sons, Lothar and “Black” Walder, and bakes them into a pie she feeds to their father.

Kill count: 11

Lord Walder Frey (Season 6)
Lord Walder doesn’t realize what’s happening until Arya reveals she was using her Faceless Man powers to disguise herself as a serving girl. She slits Lord Walder’s throat, getting revenge for his betrayal and murder of her brother, Robb Stark, and her mother, Catelyn Stark.

Kill count: 12

Every male member of House Frey (Season 7)
After taking out Lothar Frey and “Black” Walder Rivers, then finishing off Lord Walder Frey himself, Arya used her face-changing powers to set a trap that annihilated House Frey. She drew all the remaining Frey men together and, posing as Lord Walder, poisoned them all.

Kill count: 63
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
55,078
5,062
126
I wonder if Arya was trained to do /something/ by the faceless men. At their last meeting, Jaqen seemed to be bemused more than anything when she had a sword pointed at him. I wonder if they knew she'd claim her legacy from the start, and joining the faceless men was just a pretense for getting her toughened up, and skilled.
 
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GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
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I wonder if Arya was trained to do /something/ by the faceless men. At their last meeting, Jaqen seemed to be bemused more than anything when she had a sword pointed at him. I wonder if they knew she'd claim her legacy from the start, and joining the faceless men was just a pretense for getting her toughened up, and skilled.
That's an interesting idea. The Faceless Men have a lot of power, but there's nothing to suggest that predicting the future is one of them. Even if they suspected that Arya would never become no one (very possible) I can't imagine how they think training her and turning her loose is a good thing. She could be a loose cannon that causes a hell of a lot of trouble in the world and a lot of trouble for them in particular.

I think Jaqen was bemused because he had taken a liking to Arya and was happy to see she beat the Waif.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
55,078
5,062
126
That's an interesting idea. The Faceless Men have a lot of power, but there's nothing to suggest that predicting the future is one of them. Even if they suspected that Arya would never become no one (very possible) I can't imagine how they think training her and turning her loose is a good thing. She could be a loose cannon that causes a hell of a lot of trouble in the world and a lot of trouble for them in particular.

I think Jaqen was bemused because he had taken a liking to Arya and was happy to see she beat the Waif.
You might be right, but perhaps she's more targeted than it appears. Remember when her and Jaqen were going over her kill list, and he hit her when she said the Hound? It might have been because he saw the truth of her feelings towards him, but the Hound might be "special" for some reason. He's hooked up with other "special" people. The whole 'kill the actress' thing could have been an integrity test.

Or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about :shrugs: I'm not really invested in video. I just watch the pictures go by, and seldom give it much thought. The whole show's been a surprise for me. I started watching knowing nothing about it, and thought it was a kind of historical fiction, and then everything went weird :^D It's been an interesting ride for sure.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
6,065
512
126
I wish they hadn't done the Mission Impossible face mask bit. The way they handled with Jaquen was so much better. There was always an air of mystery about how he did what he did. Of course I guess you could say that Arya just isn't at that level yet, but still . . .

I had mixed feelings about her meeting the soldiers in the woods. In your typical tv/movie pulp fiction that would have been the prelude to a rape scene. So on one hand, I'm glad they didn't fall into that trap. But on the other, I'm not sure how realistic that particular scenario was.

The curmudgeon-ness of the Hound was getting a bit much before his religious conversion. But it was worth putting up with that bitchiness to see his face when he looked into the fire. I'm interested to see where his story goes from here. Is he one who will be brought back by the Lord of Light?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
9,400
5,548
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I think Jaqen was bemused because he had taken a liking to Arya and was happy to see she beat the Waif.
I had assumed that because they were kind of 'death worshippers' that really, the faceless men were completely fine with her turning into a whirlwind of destruction out in the world. They just have this sort of 'job' that permits them to kill within a pseudo-scope of legality/saction where they seem to stay under the radar as a sort of assassin's guild. But a death-dealer with every intention on taking out some very high-profile souls, along with sheer quantities? I'm sure the 'God of Death' would be plenty happy with that.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
1,993
126
I had assumed that because they were kind of 'death worshippers' that really, the faceless men were completely fine with her turning into a whirlwind of destruction out in the world. They just have this sort of 'job' that permits them to kill within a pseudo-scope of legality/saction where they seem to stay under the radar as a sort of assassin's guild. But a death-dealer with every intention on taking out some very high-profile souls, along with sheer quantities? I'm sure the 'God of Death' would be plenty happy with that.
No, everything she's doing is completely against their code. They kill only for pay or to end suffering. They are strictly forbidden to kill out of anger, sport, revenge or any other motives. They can't know their victims and must be completely detached. They can't decide who lives or dies, they only accept contracts.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
1,993
126
You might be right, but perhaps she's more targeted than it appears.
The one thing that's *possible* is that Jaqen and Syrio are either the same person or at least know each other. So perhaps Jaqen wasn't in that wagon heading to the Wall by accident and was there to keep an eye on Arya based on their previous relationship. But even that theory is full of holes.

One of the biggest plot holes in the entire series is how Jaqen got worked into the storyline. There's no reason for him to be there, no reason for him to be in the dungeon, no reason for him to be sent to the Wall, no reason for him to be in chains in the wagon. Nothing about where he came from or how he got introduced makes any sense at all.
 

PJFrylar

Senior member
Apr 17, 2016
974
613
136
A possible angle is the Iron Throne being millions of gold in debt to the Iron Bank of Braavos. A plan involving training and unleashing Arya doesn't seem to be the best way to go about settling up though.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
9,400
5,548
146
A possible angle is the Iron Throne being millions of gold in debt to the Iron Bank of Braavos. A plan involving training and unleashing Arya doesn't seem to be the best way to go about settling up though.
It'd be easier for them to just send one of the faceless assassins. I think Arya was a genuine attempt in recruitment that just went south.

Maybe someone just put out a contract for the Waif?
 

PJFrylar

Senior member
Apr 17, 2016
974
613
136
It'd be easier for them to just send one of the faceless assassins. I think Arya was a genuine attempt in recruitment that just went south.

Maybe someone just put out a contract for the Waif?
Yeah, I was saying it was a possible angle - not a good one haha. Things like lending gold to Stannis were significantly more sensible, but that didn't exactly turn out well.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
13,909
2,222
126
The one thing that's *possible* is that Jaqen and Syrio are either the same person or at least know each other. So perhaps Jaqen wasn't in that wagon heading to the Wall by accident and was there to keep an eye on Arya based on their previous relationship. But even that theory is full of holes.

One of the biggest plot holes in the entire series is how Jaqen got worked into the storyline. There's no reason for him to be there, no reason for him to be in the dungeon, no reason for him to be sent to the Wall, no reason for him to be in chains in the wagon. Nothing about where he came from or how he got introduced makes any sense at all.
They definitely are. Syrio got away and that idiot Trant was too embarrassed to tell anyone, or maybe didn't think it was that big a deal.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
1,993
126
They definitely are. Syrio got away and that idiot Trant was too embarrassed to tell anyone, or maybe didn't think it was that big a deal.
Not definitely, just in the realm of possible.

Syrio definitely got away from Trant. Anyone that believe otherwise is a moron. But the idea of Syrio being a Faceless Man is still a big leap of logic. WTF would a Faceless Man be doing giving fencing lessons to a little girl? At that point she couldn't possibly be on their radar. I guess maybe, just maybe, it's possible that a Faceless Man had to be in Kings Landing for a hit, chose the role of Syrio as cover and then morphed into Jaqen to slip out of the city once he beat up Meryn. But even that doesn't make a lot of sense as the Faceless Man wouldn't have a reason to disguise himself as a prisoner in the dungeon. So however you try to justify things it doesn't work very smoothly. Jaqen being there is just a giant hole.
 

Cappuccino

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2013
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.... d o n t . m i n d . m e . i m . j u s t . p a s s i n g. b . y . i . m a s i m p l e . s h e m a l e. i. s . e . e . G . o T. I. w . i ll . c o m m e n t . a n d . s . a . y . G . O . T . S. U . C K. G , O , w a t c h . so m th i ng e l s e . t h a n k m e l8r a l i g a 8 t e r
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
27,422
1,402
126
if yara is in the warroom with dany, varys and tyrion, then where is theon!?!?
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
23,261
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.... d o n t . m i n d . m e . i m . j u s t . p a s s i n g. b . y . i . m a s i m p l e . s h e m a l e. i. s . e . e . G . o T. I. w . i ll . c o m m e n t . a n d . s . a . y . G . O . T . S. U . C K. G , O , w a t c h . so m th i ng e l s e . t h a n k m e l8r a l i g a 8 t e r
 

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