• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Formula1 2013 thread

Page 7 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
I hope Vettel and Webber take each other out at the first corner of the rest of the races this season. I'm sick of hearing about both of them.

Go Kimi!

Or Fernando!
 
LTC8K6 said:
Huh? Alonso won that race, yes?

There was no battle for the win with Red Bull.

Webber would not have been taking a victory from Vettel.

Webber was leading at Sepang...Vettel ignored team orders to take a win away from Webber. A win is huge.
Click to expand...

Not that I agree one way or another on this. But your using very odd and hypocritical logic based solely on the particular position. What if it was a battle for 3rd and 4th, one being a podium finish and one not being?

Either Team orders are Team orders and as the supplier of a several million dollar paycheck and several million dollar car is the one to rule them all and Vettel screwed up by ignoring them. Or Team Orders are bad and all racers should ignore them for their own personal gain because they have as much to lose in it as the teams.
 
LTC8K6 said:
The Constructor's Championship is really all that matters to the team. The team doesn't care who is first in a 1-2 finish, because the team gets the same number of points. The orders make perfect sense. A battle between the two drivers risks all the team points at once.

Vettel passing Webber when ordered not to also risks all the team points.
Click to expand...

This is true to a point, but you can't convince me that the team doesn't care whether its driver wins the driver's championship. Vettel is likely to do so, and Webber realistically has no chance.
 
LOL_Wut_Axel said:
Vettel won Monza years ago in a Toro Rosso/Minardi.

And the fact is that if you put Webber, or Massa, or Button (all of which I'd say are on a comparable level) much more often than not they'll be slower than their teammates. Vettel won because he's a tier one driver (along with Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen) with the fastest car. If it was Alonso or Raikonnen in his position they would've won too, but to say that Vettel is not on the same level as them is BS. It's both him and the car.
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Yes, Vettel is one of the best drivers on the field. Him Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton are the best on the grid at the moment.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't agree with you saying Red Bull is nothing without Vettel and that Any Good enough driver would win multiple Titles in a Red Bull. If there was a seat open at red bull, trust me a top driver will take that seat and would likely have won a few titles too.

Button already proved he can win a title when given the car, so I believe he would win a few more if he was in a red bull. Thats what I'm trying to say. I agree with you when you say vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are on the same level. What I don't agree with is you saying Red bull are nothing without vettel. Do you really think Vettel is worth more to Red Bull than Adrian Newey? They would toss vettel out in a second if it were between those 2.
 
LOL_Wut_Axel said:
Yeah, except that article failed to mention one thing: while Webber was pushing, Vettel's KERS had failed at one point. It's akin to the exact same thing, except of course that since Vettel is faster he maintained the lead.

And in that race, too, the strategy was to do a Multi 21 in case it was needed.

Stop defending Webber. He wants to win at all costs also, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't come here complaining about how what Vettel did was "unsportsmanlike" when Webber has done the same in the past. Webber has also NEVER helped Vettel out in the Championship; you can use the most recent examples of Abu Dhabi and Brazil 2012 to see that. Webber is simply slower and is Vettel's bitch which is why he's mad.
Click to expand...

I'm not defending anyone. I'm watching Formula 1 for more than 10 years and I have never had a preference to a certain driver. I just like auto racing.

Webber wasn't always that slow. When Vettel grabbed his first title in 2010 Webber was in the game till the last races of the season and if he hadn't broken his shoulder maybe things would be different.

The next seasons he may was slower than Vettel but he was the No 2 driver. He had no KERS in many races. It was always his KERS that wasn't working. In 10 times Webber had a KERS problem Vettel had only once. There was a race if not more he raced with an outdated aerodynamic package. Things like these don't help to compete in equal terms with your team mate.
 
Topweasel said:
Not that I agree one way or another on this. But your using very odd and hypocritical logic based solely on the particular position. What if it was a battle for 3rd and 4th, one being a podium finish and one not being?

Either Team orders are Team orders and as the supplier of a several million dollar paycheck and several million dollar car is the one to rule them all and Vettel screwed up by ignoring them. Or Team Orders are bad and all racers should ignore them for their own personal gain because they have as much to lose in it as the teams.
Click to expand...

I've already said that Rosberg should have been allowed to pass Hamilton for the podium spot, so what are you talking about?

But the win is still a much bigger deal.

I've also already explained that I don't mind team orders when they make sense.

I believe I posted about Rosberg and Hamilton before mentioning Vettel and Webber.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Huh? Alonso won that race, yes?

There was no battle for the win with Red Bull.

Webber would not have been taking a victory from Vettel.

Webber was leading at Sepang...Vettel ignored team orders to take a win away from Webber. A win is huge.
Click to expand...


Doesn't matter. That's not the point. The whole reason people are pretending to be angry at Vettel is because he ignored the stupid team orders. This sets precedent for the fact that Webber has done it before. You can also use Abu Dhabi and Brazil GP in 2012 as examples that Webber has never helped Vettel out, so even if they're enemies from now on that wouldn't change anything anyway.
 
Skurge said:
I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Yes, Vettel is one of the best drivers on the field. Him Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton are the best on the grid at the moment.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't agree with you saying Red Bull is nothing without Vettel and that Any Good enough driver would win multiple Titles in a Red Bull. If there was a seat open at red bull, trust me a top driver will take that seat and would likely have won a few titles too.

Button already proved he can win a title when given the car, so I believe he would win a few more if he was in a red bull. Thats what I'm trying to say. I agree with you when you say vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are on the same level. What I don't agree with is you saying Red bull are nothing without vettel. Do you really think Vettel is worth more to Red Bull than Adrian Newey? They would toss vettel out in a second if it were between those 2.
Click to expand...

No they wouldn't. By your own definition Webber is a good driver, and he was beaten last year fair and square by both Alonso and Raikkonen who were in slower cars.

And Red Bull are nothing without Vettel because they have pretty much no other choice but him. The only other guys in his class are Hamilton, Raikkonen and Alonso and all of those are in good teams with chances of winning races and even the championship. So if they ditched Vettel, who are they gonna replace him with? Certainly not someone who has the same pace. To win you need the fastest driver, and the fastest car (taking also into account things like reliability).
 
LOL_Wut_Axel said:
Doesn't matter. That's not the point. The whole reason people are pretending to be angry at Vettel is because he ignored the stupid team orders. This sets precedent for the fact that Webber has done it before. You can also use Abu Dhabi and Brazil GP in 2012 as examples that Webber has never helped Vettel out, so even if they're enemies from now on that wouldn't change anything anyway.
Click to expand...

I thought it was already well established that Webber and Vettel don't get along?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34788318&postcount=101
 
What miffed me most about this incident, was that Webber was complaining about it.
Now I can understand that Horner is upset by the result, but Webber is not the one to complain about the team result. I think he just got comfortable with a gifted win, and then had it taken from him, and threw a tantrum.
As a racing drivers, that's a bit of a low moment.
This sudden change to "team orders are to be followed" right the moment that he loses out on his team mate not sticking to them to the letter, it's a flaw in character.

On the other hand it could be, that Webber got an extra stern talking to before the race, with regard to his previous lack of respect of team orders. Then I'd be extra-miffed, if the other driver suddenly ignored them. But we'll see how the team deals with this luxury issue.
 
_Rick_ said:
What miffed me most about this incident, was that Webber was complaining about it.
Now I can understand that Horner is upset by the result, but Webber is not the one to complain about the team result. I think he just got comfortable with a gifted win, and then had it taken from him, and threw a tantrum.
As a racing drivers, that's a bit of a low moment.
This sudden change to "team orders are to be followed" right the moment that he loses out on his team mate not sticking to them to the letter, it's a flaw in character.

On the other hand it could be, that Webber got an extra stern talking to before the race, with regard to his previous lack of respect of team orders. Then I'd be extra-miffed, if the other driver suddenly ignored them. But we'll see how the team deals with this luxury issue.
Click to expand...

I think it depends on what Webber knew or was told. If he was told Vettel would hold position, then he has a right to be mad, but at Vettel, not the team.

At any rate, both drivers now know for sure that the other doesn't give a damn about team orders, and it's every man for himself.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I've already said that Rosberg should have been allowed to pass Hamilton for the podium spot, so what are you talking about?

But the win is still a much bigger deal.

I've also already explained that I don't mind team orders when they make sense.

I believe I posted about Rosberg and Hamilton before mentioning Vettel and Webber.
Click to expand...

Team orders always make sense to the team. There isn't a reason other than respect to a particular drivers quest for a Drivers championship to not implement drivers orders to prevent incident, maximize points potential, or just to keep wear off of parts that now have to last several races. As far as a team is concerned there is no reason to hold off for certain number of races or only when certain personal results are accounted for. The problem with people that get hot and bothered about "useless team orders" are people that worry more about the drivers championships than constructors. But as the people responsible for 100-200 million dollar budgets the Constructors means more. It's severely hypocritical to find some more ok than another.
 
I think some folks are forgetting that team orders were banned from F1 from 2003 thru 2010 when comparing incidents.

I think some folks are also forgetting that drivers have handled the orders very differently at times.

Schumacher refused to take the top podium step or sit in the center seat after the race in 2002 when Barrichello was ordered to let him win. The team was punished because Schumacher refused to take the spot for the winner.
 
“I think Nico deserved to be where I am right now,” said Hamilton. “He drove a much smarter and much more controlled race than I did today.”

On the podium and in interviews later, Vettel admitted the move had been wrong and apologised to Webber and the team for his actions. “I messed up today,” he conceded. “I would love to come up with a nice excuse as to why I did it, but I can’t.
 
LOL_Wut_Axel said:
[...]

To win you need the fastest driver, and the fastest car (taking also into account things like reliability).
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure that's always true. In 2002 Ferrari won 15 out of 17 races (11 won by Schumacher) and in 2004 15 out of 18 races (13 won by Schumacher).

In my opinion if there was someone else in Schumacher's place he would have won the championship too, maybe without having Schumacher's success, but yet he would be a champion (with less wins than Schumacher).
 
LTC8K6 said:
I think it depends on what Webber knew or was told. If he was told Vettel would hold position, then he has a right to be mad, but at Vettel, not the team.

At any rate, both drivers now know for sure that the other doesn't give a damn about team orders, and it's every man for himself.
Click to expand...

they had a plan, agreed to before each race: if they're 1-2 after the last pit stops, they hold position. vettel shoved that agreement up webber's ass.

at the same time, he announced to the world that red bull was his team and he was in charge. horner confirmed that with the least effective leadership i have ever witnessed:

"this is silly, seb. come on..."

Q: "why didn't you order him back?"
A: "do you think he would have listened?"

incredibly pathetic. horner is completely outranked by vettel. now that the team is built his job is done - he's just along for the ride.
 
The Boston Dangler said:
they had a plan, agreed to before each race: if they're 1-2 after the last pit stops, they hold position. vettel shoved that agreement up webber's ass.

at the same time, he announced to the world that red bull was his team and he was in charge. horner confirmed that with the least effective leadership i have ever witnessed:

"this is silly, seb. come on..."

Q: "why didn't you order him back?"
A: "do you think he would have listened?"

incredibly pathetic. horner is completely outranked by vettel. now that the team is built his job is done - he's just along for the ride.
Click to expand...

That attitude won't work out well for Vettel, I predict.
 
Costas Athan said:
Webber revealed it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQYlpup_Rc
Listen what he says at 0:35.

There always is a race plan...
Click to expand...

Out of all the parties involved, Webber is by far the least believable in this. If he is the only one saying it, it's probably a lie. The circumstances that unfolded during the race all point to no pre-race agreement. It doesn't even make sense for such an agreement to be made before the race. Once the last pit stop took place, it's obvious the team told Vettel to stay in place, which he didn't. If a pre-race agreement was in place, why would they have to tell him that during the race? He would have already known to stay put.
 
Pariah said:
Out of all the parties involved, Webber is by far the least believable in this. If he is the only one saying it, it's probably a lie. The circumstances that unfolded during the race all point to no pre-race agreement. It doesn't even make sense for such an agreement to be made before the race. Once the last pit stop took place, it's obvious the team told Vettel to stay in place, which he didn't. If a pre-race agreement was in place, why would they have to tell him that during the race? He would have already known to stay put.
Click to expand...

I can't believe that Webber presented an imaginary scenario to the press and no one of the team including Vettel didn't react to it. I'm sure that if he had used such a lie to back up his situation and had came to the press with it the team would be mad with Webber and they would have asked him for an apology for his libelous accusations.

You said that pre-race strategies don't make sense. I don't know what you mean. Every team has a briefing before the race in order to discuss the race strategy. It's common! Everyone does it! And it makes perfect sense to me to have agreed if they are in the first two places to hold their positions near the end of the race because the team doesn't want to risk a crash, because they want to protect the tires that deteriorate really fast (and that would mean the 3rd or the 4th driver could reach them easily if the tires stopped working) and because they want to protect the engines which have to last for 3 races.

Actually the only thing I haven't heard is the team order itself! I only listened to Horner complaining to Vettel for his silly behavior, but I didn't hear the team order given to the drivers.
 
punjabiplaya said:
no, actually it refers to a setting for the engine, not car 2 ahead of car1 .
Click to expand...

From Horner on the meaning of "multi 21" -


After the race Webber was heard pointing out to Vettel they had been given the instruction “multi 21″ during the race. “Multi 21 means car two ahead of car one,” Horner explained.

“Multi 12 means car one ahead of car two. It’s not complicated. It’s not that difficult to translate but both our drivers in the last three races have failed to understand both of those messages.”

“I think we’re going to give up on that code,” he added. “We need to probably try something else.”

Source - http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/29/horner-vettel-webber-malaysia-team-orders-2013/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Back
Top