Formula1 2013 thread

[The Boston Dangler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-ftoQ8l13Q4#t=2979s

great movie, but carefully edited to celebrate senna the saint. in the full interview, stewart rightfully puts the wood to him.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

great movie, but carefully edited to celebrate senna the saint. in the full interview, stewart rightfully puts the wood to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdCWDSpwv9U

 

[satyajitmenon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4O1fXMiFw

 

[The Boston Dangler]

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

The manufacturers don't get a single penny if his driver wins the WDC, they want to make sure that both cars finish in good positions and Webber and Vettel were told to conserve fuel and save tires which Vettel clearly disregarded, and made a fool out of himself.

Without Vettel Red Bull is nothing, so he'll do as he pleases (which is to win) as long as it isn't against the rules. Being his team's bitch isn't gonna win him championships. Look at Senna and Schumacher.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Well if Webber had slowed down because of the team orders and the race plan, that overtake defies the rules of fair play.

If Webber was aware that Vettel was racing at full speed he could do the same. At some point of the race he was leading by 5 seconds. He could try to maintain the gap. But without knowing that Vettel disobeyed the team orders he slowed down and Vettel took advantage of it.

Too bad for him then. Winning is winning.

Also, what is up with this new storytale about Webber not helping Vettel out in the championship given the incident? Webber has NEVER helped Vettel out, look at Brazil just some months ago. Also, look at 2011 and you'll find Webber disobeyed team orders as well to try and pass Vettel. Of course, Vettel is faster so he maintained ahead. The whole point of racing is to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClT5IssQ9ik

 

[Costas Athan]

Too bad for him then. Winning is winning.

Also, what is up with this new storytale about Webber not helping Vettel out in the championship given the incident? Webber has NEVER helped Vettel out, look at Brazil just some months ago. Also, look at 2011 and you'll find Webber disobeyed team orders as well to try and pass Vettel. Of course, Vettel is faster so he maintained ahead. The whole point of racing is to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClT5IssQ9ik

I'm not sure if Vettel was faster this time. The whole race he was behind Webber and was unable to overtake him. Before the last pit stop Webber was over 5 seconds ahead of Vettel. Vettel reached him and overtook him only when he had stopped pushing because the team ordered both of them to reduce their pace.

By the way I didn't hear any team order in the video you posted. Just Vettel being frustrated because he didn't win.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

I'm not sure if Vettel was faster this time. The whole race he was behind Webber and was unable to overtake him. Before the last pit stop Webber was over 5 seconds ahead of Vettel. Vettel reached him and overtook him only when he had stopped pushing because the team ordered both of them to reduce their pace.

By the way I didn't hear any team order in the video you posted. Just Vettel being frustrated because he didn't win.

Wasn't meant to show that. Anyway,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14145893

Also, I have some shocking news: Vettel is faster than Webber and that's why he's won the Championship three times to none. Teams shouldn't be using orders this early in the season, especially since it can be incredibly costly at the end of the championship. Last year Vettel won the championship by a mere 3 points, so 7 points extra can make all the difference. That, and that since he's a racing driver, he wants to race and win.

 

[Costas Athan]

Wasn't meant to show that. Anyway,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14145893

Also, I have some shocking news: Vettel is faster than Webber and that's why he's won the Championship three times to none. Teams shouldn't be using orders this early in the season, especially since it can be incredibly costly at the end of the championship. Last year Vettel won the championship by a mere 3 points, so 7 points extra can make all the difference. That, and that since he's a racing driver, he wants to race and win.

The difference is that Vettel was still driving at full speed in British GP. In the current situation Vettel passed a car that had stopped pushing for several laps...

During British GP the order to maintain the gap came when Webber reached Vettel ==> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY. This time the race strategy (which was decided before the race of course) was clear enough. They were meant to race each other till the last pit stop and then they should both reduce their pace in order to protect the tires and the engine. Vettel knew it and took advantage of the situation. He didn't slow down, so he closed the gap and reached Webber who followed the race plan and had already stopped pushing the car to its limits.

 

[_Rick_]

The agreement was for them to slow down after the last pit stop. Vettel was on Webbers tail, right from the moment he got out of the pits. So obviously there was no reason for Mark to have slowed down by this point. And there was no reason to slow down in the two laps that followed, as he was being hounded.
He was on the slower tire, though, and on his out-lap, so the tire wasn't switched on, so of course Vettel was faster, and in a position to do a DRS pass. While he didn't quite pull that off, he managed to get ahead in the following half lap, and then pull away. That's the earliest point where Mark backed off.

Also, I'm amazed by the amount of times I see people complain about how Vettel told his engineer that Mark was holding him up, mid-race, and Mark then lapping faster than him in the following laps, which supposedly shows Mark's skill. Well, if Seb was complaining that means he was uncomfortably close to him, and he was still being chased, so he had to back off for clear air. Back markers on the main/back straight could also have an influence on the lap time of the lead car over the P2 car. Or it just means that Mark's earlier laps just were too slow, and he was told to hurry it up. Those Mercedes' were still hot on their heels at that point.

 

[brainhulk]

 

[Costas Athan]

The agreement was for them to slow down after the last pit stop. Vettel was on Webbers tail, right from the moment he got out of the pits. So obviously there was no reason for Mark to have slowed down by this point. And there was no reason to slow down in the two laps that followed, as he was being hounded.
He was on the slower tire, though, and on his out-lap, so the tire wasn't switched on, so of course Vettel was faster, and in a position to do a DRS pass. While he didn't quite pull that off, he managed to get ahead in the following half lap, and then pull away. That's the earliest point where Mark backed off.

Also, I'm amazed by the amount of times I see people complain about how Vettel told his engineer that Mark was holding him up, mid-race, and Mark then lapping faster than him in the following laps, which supposedly shows Mark's skill. Well, if Seb was complaining that means he was uncomfortably close to him, and he was still being chased, so he had to back off for clear air. Back markers on the main/back straight could also have an influence on the lap time of the lead car over the P2 car. Or it just means that Mark's earlier laps just were too slow, and he was told to hurry it up. Those Mercedes' were still hot on their heels at that point.

There was a reason. He was reassured that he wasn't going to be overtaken by Vettel and he backed off. Before the last pit stop he was leading the race by 5 seconds. If I'm not mistaken at that point Vettel was third so the gap between him and Webber was even bigger. (Even if he was second there was a gap of 5 seconds.) If he didn't slow down deliberately what happened? Why did the gap vanish?

During the middle of the race he could try to overtake him without causing any debate. At that time that wasn't against the race plan or the team orders. I can't recall a single effort for an overtake during this part of the race. If he was slowing him down at least he could try to overtake him...

 

[Skurge]

Without Vettel Red Bull is nothing, so he'll do as he pleases (which is to win) as long as it isn't against the rules. Being his team's bitch isn't gonna win him championships. Look at Senna and Schumacher.

I'm sorry, but any driver is at the Mercy of the car. Look at Kimi and Lewis in 2009, Jenson in 2009. I didn't see Senna winning any Titles in a crappy lotus.

So RBR don't need Vettel. They can get a Hamilton, a Rosberg, a Button, a Alonso and they would still win multiple titles in those cars. They could even get 2nd tier drivers that would still do fine.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

The difference is that Vettel was still driving at full speed in British GP. In the current situation Vettel passed a car that had stopped pushing for several laps...

During British GP the order to maintain the gap came when Webber reached Vettel ==> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY. This time the race strategy (which was decided before the race of course) was clear enough. They were meant to race each other till the last pit stop and then they should both reduce their pace in order to protect the tires and the engine. Vettel knew it and took advantage of the situation. He didn't slow down, so he closed the gap and reached Webber who followed the race plan and had already stopped pushing the car to its limits.

Yeah, except that article failed to mention one thing: while Webber was pushing, Vettel's KERS had failed at one point. It's akin to the exact same thing, except of course that since Vettel is faster he maintained the lead.

And in that race, too, the strategy was to do a Multi 21 in case it was needed.

Stop defending Webber. He wants to win at all costs also, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't come here complaining about how what Vettel did was "unsportsmanlike" when Webber has done the same in the past. Webber has also NEVER helped Vettel out in the Championship; you can use the most recent examples of Abu Dhabi and Brazil 2012 to see that. Webber is simply slower and is Vettel's bitch which is why he's mad.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

I'm sorry, but any driver is at the Mercy of the car. Look at Kimi and Lewis in 2009, Jenson in 2009. I didn't see Senna winning any Titles in a crappy lotus.

So RBR don't need Vettel. They can get a Hamilton, a Rosberg, a Button, a Alonso and they would still win multiple titles in those cars. They could even get 2nd tier drivers that would still do fine.

Right, except those people are already in good teams.

And neither Rosberg or Button are on the same level as Vettel.

 

[Skurge]

Right, except those people are already in good teams.

And neither Rosberg or Button are on the same level as Vettel.

Your 1st sentence isn't my point. Rosberg or Button don't need to be. As long as they don't crash every second race and can win races, that is good enough in a dominating car like the RB of the last few seasons.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Your 1st sentence isn't my point. Rosberg or Button don't need to be. As long as they don't crash every second race and can win races, that is good enough in a dominating car like the RB of the last few seasons.

Then how come the difference in speed between Webber and Vettel has sometimes been staggering? They're racing in the same car.

And if it was only the car, then how come Vettel only won the championship by three points? At the beginning of last season, they were one of the slower front runners.

Stop with this BS dude. If it was Button in that car, he would be complaining left and right about anything given he needs an exact setup to his liking. And even at his best, he wouldn't match Vettel... or Hamilton... or Alonso... or Kimi. Same for Rosberg except for the complaining about the car's setup.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think the difference here is that Vettel ignored team orders.

All of the other examples of driver 1 passing driver 2 when driver 2 was doing better, are examples of following team orders, I believe. The pass was ordered, so there was no need to explain anything.

Vettel has apologized, which tells you a lot. His explanation is lame, though.

Vettel will get this returned to him, also.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

I think the difference here is that Vettel ignored team orders.

All of the other examples of driver 1 passing driver 2 when driver 2 was doing better, are examples of following team orders, I believe. The pass was ordered, so there was no need to explain anything.

Vettel has apologized, which tells you a lot. His explanation is lame, though.

Vettel will get this returned to him, also.

Webber ignored team orders in that race as well. He was told not to push and pushed and later said it was because he wanted to get the win.

But you can all keep kissing Webber's ass.

 

[Skurge]

Then how come the difference in speed between Webber and Vettel has sometimes been staggering? They're racing in the same car.

And if it was only the car, then how come Vettel only won the championship by three points? At the beginning of last season, they were one of the slower front runners.

Stop with this BS dude. If it was Button in that car, he would be complaining left and right about anything given he needs an exact setup to his liking. And even at his best, he wouldn't match Vettel... or Hamilton... or Alonso... or Kimi. Same for Rosberg except for the complaining about the car's setup.

Yes, webber is inconsistent. At his best he's as fast as vettel. At his worst he is only midfield pace. Although he has had a ton more reliability issues vs vettel.

He won it by 3pts cause of how many times his car has broken down. I never said they were equally fast. That isn't true. I was saying in a car that fast, in F1. You don't need to be the best to win a 3 titles. Case in point you mention Hamilton, Alonso and Kimi. have they won any titles in the last 4yrs? No and their cars have still been race winning. Vettel's Has been Race winning and Arguably the Fastest every one of those seasons. That proves my point

Button is a 1st tier driver. He may not be the best, but he is up there. He scored as many points and race wins as Hamilton when he was there. Say what you will, but he is a 1st tier driver.

Don't get me wrong. Vettel is an awesome driver, but to say that Red Bull would be nothing without him is laughable. Put him in a midfield car and see if he wins a title. Alonso couldn't do it, Hamilton couldn't do it, Kimi couldn't do it and Vettel sure as well wouldn't do it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Webber ignored team orders in that race as well. He was told not to push and pushed and later said it was because he wanted to get the win.

But you can all keep kissing Webber's ass.

Webber is not one of my favorite drivers.

I wonder what race you were watching?

If I were Webber, I would push too, knowing Vettel, and hearing Vettel whine about Webber being "in the way", despite Webber being well up the road.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I am very ambivalent about the whole controversy. It seems clear Vettel violated team orders, but let's face it: he is a faster driver than Webber and was on fresher tires. He, not Webber, is a realistic championship contender (he is, in fact, the odds-on favorite). I fail to see how it makes any sense to order him to cede the win to Webber under the circumstances. To me the whole thing just reinforces that Vettel's dominance is boring for fans and he himself is kind of dull. That, combined with the fact that we all love an underdog, makes us indignant at the idea that he would take a victory that, under the circumstances, was rightfully his.

 

[LTC8K6]

I am very ambivalent about the whole controversy. It seems clear Vettel violated team orders, but let's face it: he is a faster driver than Webber and was on fresher tires. He, not Webber, is a realistic championship contender (he is, in fact, the odds-on favorite). I fail to see how it makes any sense to order him to cede the win to Webber under the circumstances. To me the whole thing just reinforces that Vettel's dominance is boring for fans and he himself is kind of dull. That, combined with the fact that we all love an underdog, makes us indignant at the idea that he would take a victory that, under the circumstances, was rightfully his.

The Constructor's Championship is really all that matters to the team. The team doesn't care who is first in a 1-2 finish, because the team gets the same number of points. The orders make perfect sense. A battle between the two drivers risks all the team points at once.

Vettel passing Webber when ordered not to also risks all the team points.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Yes, webber is inconsistent. At his best he's as fast as vettel. At his worst he is only midfield pace. Although he has had a ton more reliability issues vs vettel.

He won it by 3pts cause of how many times his car has broken down. I never said they were equally fast. That isn't true. I was saying in a car that fast, in F1. You don't need to be the best to win a 3 titles. Case in point you mention Hamilton, Alonso and Kimi. have they won any titles in the last 4yrs? No and their cars have still been race winning. Vettel's Has been Race winning and Arguably the Fastest every one of those seasons. That proves my point

Button is a 1st tier driver. He may not be the best, but he is up there. He scored as many points and race wins as Hamilton when he was there. Say what you will, but he is a 1st tier driver.

Don't get me wrong. Vettel is an awesome driver, but to say that Red Bull would be nothing without him is laughable. Put him in a midfield car and see if he wins a title. Alonso couldn't do it, Hamilton couldn't do it, Kimi couldn't do it and Vettel sure as well wouldn't do it.

Vettel won Monza years ago in a Toro Rosso/Minardi.

And the fact is that if you put Webber, or Massa, or Button (all of which I'd say are on a comparable level) much more often than not they'll be slower than their teammates. Vettel won because he's a tier one driver (along with Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen) with the fastest car. If it was Alonso or Raikonnen in his position they would've won too, but to say that Vettel is not on the same level as them is BS. It's both him and the car.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Webber is not one of my favorite drivers.

I wonder what race you were watching?

If I were Webber, I would push too, knowing Vettel, and hearing Vettel whine about Webber being "in the way", despite Webber being well up the road.

Are you paying attention or not?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14145893

This was in Silverstone, not in Sepang.