For those of you who wonder why it's important for our troops to stay in Iraq, read....

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Israel will be gone, and the entire ME will become one gigantic Islamic caliphate. (Sunni's and Shi'ites will eventually unite to form this caliphate).

This is funny (and wrong) for two reasons. First you assume that the entire middle east together could take out Israel. This seems extremely unlikely. You realize that Iran is a pariah state in the middle east, right? Sunni and Shia uniting together seems very unlikely... you know with their whole centuries of mutual slaughter/denouncements as heretics thing.

So lemme get this right,
Then the armies of Islam, bolstered by the incredibly amazing infrastructure, education, and military equipment/training of the middle east and africa are going to launch an amphibious invasion of the Iberian peninsula, home of a collection of some of the most powerful nations on earth both economically and militarily. AHAHAHAHAHHAA.

If you look at what the world was like when the Moors conquered Spain, and compared it to the relative power situation in the world today... you would also burst out laughing.

You are also employing a common jingoist tactic, to demonize our enemies. Protraying our enemies as irrational warmongers bent on world domination with no compromise possible.... therefore they must be destroyed. Whatever man, since you're always going on about realists, then why don't you check out the 'reality' that we're not fighting cartoon supervillains.

lol.. you are under the impression that we are fighting against a rational and reasonable people whose decisions are made using western-style logic.

we are not.

that's your first mistake.

Your second misstep is your assumption that they will need armies to accomplish their Islamic expansion. I never said that, and it isn't true. Initially, their only weapons will be unity and ideology - which will be more than enough to accomplish their expansionist goals.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Israel will be gone, and the entire ME will become one gigantic Islamic caliphate. (Sunni's and Shi'ites will eventually unite to form this caliphate).

This is funny (and wrong) for two reasons. First you assume that the entire middle east together could take out Israel. This seems extremely unlikely. You realize that Iran is a pariah state in the middle east, right? Sunni and Shia uniting together seems very unlikely... you know with their whole centuries of mutual slaughter/denouncements as heretics thing.

So lemme get this right,
Then the armies of Islam, bolstered by the incredibly amazing infrastructure, education, and military equipment/training of the middle east and africa are going to launch an amphibious invasion of the Iberian peninsula, home of a collection of some of the most powerful nations on earth both economically and militarily. AHAHAHAHAHHAA.

If you look at what the world was like when the Moors conquered Spain, and compared it to the relative power situation in the world today... you would also burst out laughing.

You are also employing a common jingoist tactic, to demonize our enemies. Protraying our enemies as irrational warmongers bent on world domination with no compromise possible.... therefore they must be destroyed. Whatever man, since you're always going on about realists, then why don't you check out the 'reality' that we're not fighting cartoon supervillains.

lol.. you are under the impression that we are fighting against a rational and reasonable people whose decisions are made using western-style logic.

we are not.

that's your first mistake.

Your second misstep is your assumption that they will need armies to accomplish their Islamic expansion. I never said that, and it isn't true. Initially, their only weapons will be unity and ideology - which will be more than enough to accomplish their expansionist goals.

You are under the impression that you are rational and reasonable because you are from the West. But Gandhi had a much different view of your civilization than you do, if you will recall. And where, with regard to their expansionist goals, do you come to the conclusion you know what you are talking about. How about this:

With the passage of time and exposure to a universe of ideas present all over the world, the notion of radical Islam will go the way of the Dodo bird.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
lol.. you are under the impression that we are fighting against a rational and reasonable people whose decisions are made using western-style logic.

we are not.

that's your first mistake.

Your second misstep is your assumption that they will need armies to accomplish their Islamic expansion. I never said that, and it isn't true. Initially, their only weapons will be unity and ideology - which will be more than enough to accomplish their expansionist goals.

So Spain is approximately 2% Muslim. These 2% are going to rise up and take over? So by "Europe's tendancy to capitulate without much of a fight" you meant what? If you didn't mean militarily, maybe you meant through terror. But then again, Europe (particularly France) has some of the best counterterror forces in the world. So, that wouldn't seem right. Maybe you meant through immigration. Well, if they are going to take over Spain, they better get a-immigratin'. They haven't seemed to make much of a dent in it in the last few centuries. I'm sure disaster is just around the corner though, that is very 'realist' of you.

Either way, you propose to use our military (by staying in Iraq) to subdue them so that they cannot spread their ideology. (maybe because you think that whatever government ends up there will somehow promote our ideals of freedom and democracy? Hopefully you don't think that, as that's very unlikely). Can you name a religious movement that has been successfully defeated by force of arms? Suppression only tends to fan the flames of extremism.

It's very interesting to me that you can casually dismiss an entire group of people as illogical and impossible to reason with. (Talk about the pot and kettle, huh?) You do realize that the same claim was made about the Russians, right? And you know how wrong that turned out to be, right? We're not fighting Lex Luthor here; someone who won't rest until he's achieved world domination. These are people too, no matter how much you want to turn them into something else.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: daniel49
[I would allow you great latitude on the majority of that and certainly understand your feelings but would disagree with the bolded part.
The Emperor simply had no choice.

I know the Emperor had no choice; that doesn't change the importance of his presence behind MacArthur in the eyes of the Japanese.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74
lol.. you are under the impression that we are fighting against a rational and reasonable people whose decisions are made using western-style logic.

we are not.

that's your first mistake.

Your second misstep is your assumption that they will need armies to accomplish their Islamic expansion. I never said that, and it isn't true. Initially, their only weapons will be unity and ideology - which will be more than enough to accomplish their expansionist goals.

So Spain is approximately 2% Muslim. These 2% are going to rise up and take over? So by "Europe's tendancy to capitulate without much of a fight" you meant what? If you didn't mean militarily, maybe you meant through terror. But then again, Europe (particularly France) has some of the best counterterror forces in the world. So, that wouldn't seem right. Maybe you meant through immigration. Well, if they are going to take over Spain, they better get a-immigratin'. They haven't seemed to make much of a dent in it in the last few centuries. I'm sure disaster is just around the corner though, that is very 'realist' of you.

Either way, you propose to use our military (by staying in Iraq) to subdue them so that they cannot spread their ideology. (maybe because you think that whatever government ends up there will somehow promote our ideals of freedom and democracy? Hopefully you don't think that, as that's very unlikely). Can you name a religious movement that has been successfully defeated by force of arms? Suppression only tends to fan the flames of extremism.

It's very interesting to me that you can casually dismiss an entire group of people as illogical and impossible to reason with. (Talk about the pot and kettle, huh?) You do realize that the same claim was made about the Russians, right? And you know how wrong that turned out to be, right? We're not fighting Lex Luthor here; someone who won't rest until he's achieved world domination. These are people too, no matter how much you want to turn them into something else.

I'm not talking about Iraqi insurgents here... I'm talking about the religious extremists who support and/or run terrorist organizations, and entire countries, throughout the world. Each of them, by their very nature as "extremists," refuses to allow logic and reason to enter their minds. They will sit down across from you, and tell you with a straight face, that they and their entire family are willing to wait 100 or 200 years for the eventual rise of Islamic rule. They will also, without blinking, state their willingness to die in the effort to make it happen.

There are tens of thousands of people who wake up every day and set out to bring the world one step closer to Islamic rule. It consumes their entire existence and impacts every decision they make.

Where does a rational Western thinker even begin to "negotiate" with such people? If the extremists are completely willing to sacrifice several generations of their own families to make their dream of an Islamic world a reality, just wtf can the West offer them to make them change their minds?! money? isolation? submission?

I personally believe it's a case of irreconcilable differences with no hope for diplomatic success. I also see the war with these extremists as one that will last from now untill eternity - due to the never-ending cycle of killing one and creating five more.

But what's the alternative? capitulation? Allowing them to accelerate their goal of Islamic rule? Leave them to their own devices, cross our fingers, and merely hope for the best?

...submit?

bah... forget it. Denial suits you well, so I wont continue trying to rob you of your blindfold.

g'day.

 

[johnnobts]

Then the armies of Islam, bolstered by the incredibly amazing infrastructure, education, and military equipment/training of the middle east and africa are going to launch an amphibious invasion of the Iberian peninsula, home of a collection of some of the most powerful nations on earth both economically and militarily. AHAHAHAHAHHAA.
______

lol

 

[Jhhnn]

Remarkable how the bushfans conflate and equate the multi-faceted Iraqi resistance with Al Qaeda, when it suits their purposes. Today, they'll rave about Al Q, tomorrow it'll be about the Shia militias and Iranian hegemony, after that, secular Baathist partisans...

There are lots of Iraqi groups engaging in resistance to our occupation, and they're not all Al Qaeda, not by a longshot.

But, rave on about holding on, even though there's no end in sight so long as we stick around in Iraq. What happens when the surge puts us right back where we started, only poorer? How many times do you think you can raise the spectre of the boogeyman while maintaining any credibility at all?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74
lol.. you are under the impression that we are fighting against a rational and reasonable people whose decisions are made using western-style logic.

we are not.

that's your first mistake.

Your second misstep is your assumption that they will need armies to accomplish their Islamic expansion. I never said that, and it isn't true. Initially, their only weapons will be unity and ideology - which will be more than enough to accomplish their expansionist goals.

So Spain is approximately 2% Muslim. These 2% are going to rise up and take over? So by "Europe's tendancy to capitulate without much of a fight" you meant what? If you didn't mean militarily, maybe you meant through terror. But then again, Europe (particularly France) has some of the best counterterror forces in the world. So, that wouldn't seem right. Maybe you meant through immigration. Well, if they are going to take over Spain, they better get a-immigratin'. They haven't seemed to make much of a dent in it in the last few centuries. I'm sure disaster is just around the corner though, that is very 'realist' of you.

Either way, you propose to use our military (by staying in Iraq) to subdue them so that they cannot spread their ideology. (maybe because you think that whatever government ends up there will somehow promote our ideals of freedom and democracy? Hopefully you don't think that, as that's very unlikely). Can you name a religious movement that has been successfully defeated by force of arms? Suppression only tends to fan the flames of extremism.

It's very interesting to me that you can casually dismiss an entire group of people as illogical and impossible to reason with. (Talk about the pot and kettle, huh?) You do realize that the same claim was made about the Russians, right? And you know how wrong that turned out to be, right? We're not fighting Lex Luthor here; someone who won't rest until he's achieved world domination. These are people too, no matter how much you want to turn them into something else.

I'm not talking about Iraqi insurgents here... I'm talking about the religious extremists who support and/or run terrorist organizations, and entire countries, throughout the world. Each of them, by their very nature as "extremists," refuses to allow logic and reason to enter their minds. They will sit down across from you, and tell you with a straight face, that they and their entire family are willing to wait 100 or 200 years for the eventual rise of Islamic rule. They will also, without blinking, state their willingness to die in the effort to make it happen.

There are tens of thousands of people who wake up every day and set out to bring the world one step closer to Islamic rule. It consumes their entire existence and impacts every decision they make.

Where does a rational Western thinker even begin to "negotiate" with such people? If the extremists are completely willing to sacrifice several generations of their own families to make their dream of an Islamic world a reality, just wtf can the West offer them to make them change their minds?! money? isolation? submission?

I personally believe it's a case of irreconcilable differences with no hope for diplomatic success. I also see the war with these extremists as one that will last from now untill eternity - due to the never-ending cycle of killing one and creating five more.

But what's the alternative? capitulation? Allowing them to accelerate their goal of Islamic rule? Leave them to their own devices, cross our fingers, and merely hope for the best?

...submit?

bah... forget it. Denial suits you well, so I wont continue trying to rob you of your blindfold.

g'day.

We have to burn them at the stake.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

I'm not talking about Iraqi insurgents here... I'm talking about the religious extremists who support and/or run terrorist organizations, and entire countries, throughout the world. Each of them, by their very nature as "extremists," refuses to allow logic and reason to enter their minds. They will sit down across from you, and tell you with a straight face, that they and their entire family are willing to wait 100 or 200 years for the eventual rise of Islamic rule. They will also, without blinking, state their willingness to die in the effort to make it happen.

There are tens of thousands of people who wake up every day and set out to bring the world one step closer to Islamic rule. It consumes their entire existence and impacts every decision they make.

Where does a rational Western thinker even begin to "negotiate" with such people? If the extremists are completely willing to sacrifice several generations of their own families to make their dream of an Islamic world a reality, just wtf can the West offer them to make them change their minds?! money? isolation? submission?

I personally believe it's a case of irreconcilable differences with no hope for diplomatic success. I also see the war with these extremists as one that will last from now untill eternity - due to the never-ending cycle of killing one and creating five more.

But what's the alternative? capitulation? Allowing them to accelerate their goal of Islamic rule? Leave them to their own devices, cross our fingers, and merely hope for the best?

...submit?

bah... forget it. Denial suits you well, so I wont continue trying to rob you of your blindfold.

g'day.[/quote]

You are an ignorant fool, but you are a dangerous fool... because you attempt to give reputable garb to medieval ideas and xenophobic paranoia.

Some nutjobs blow up two buildings, and kill 3000 people and now suddenly we're in an eternal (apparently unwinnable?) war for all of civilization against exponentially increasing hordes of suicidal islamic death commandos. Sure we are. You speak as if you have some sort of superior knowledge about reality when what you write shows that you're ignorant of some of the most fundamental cultural and religious facts about the people you claim to know so well.

It has been the stated goal of Islam to Islam-i-fy the entire world since the day it came into existence. It hasn't happened. It's not going to happen. It's not about changing a few crazy a$$holes' minds... and we don't have to offer them anything. As Moonbeam said, (wow, I can't believe I'm referencing him) learning about the people of the rest of the world has an amazing moderating effect on people in general. Apparently it hasn't worked on you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work on others. (then again, the Iraqis and Arabs you describe and the ones I have met might as well be from two different planets.)

The way you talk about people sacrificing their whole families to further the cause of Islam betrays a profound ignorance on your part of what motivates this suicidal sacrifice you talk about, and people in islamic countries in general.

Please read this. I know you won't listen to me... but maybe you'll listen to someone else.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: tweaker2
yeah sure, democracy is good for us and may be good for them. but who are we that we should cram democracy down their throats

I would have to say in response that this as reasoning for an attack is wrong. So I agree with that notion. The idea that we?re going to collapse governments, create chaos in the midterm, and then patch it all up as a new democracy is flawed. Fighters from around the region, heck much of the globe, came to Iraq in our wake to hinder our efforts at creating a new Iraqi government. Our failure at this and their success is self evident.

?Terrorism?, as the new modern warfare thrives in such a chaotic situation. It?s their strength and we gave them the idealistic platform to combat us with. It?s very expensive on our part to combat them there with a fledgling Iraqi government. We cannot, and must not act in the principle that reshaping governments is going to bring about success.

The ideology of militant Islam is our primary opponent here, and I very much believe they can operate freely in a democracy. If our actions merely achieve that, then I believe we accomplish nothing.

They may be able to operate in a Democracy for a while but they will go extinct when they try to survive inside one. All these nuts come from places without much hope or liberal education, without being told how others may try to use their lives for the political goals of others.

In America we've raised a Muslim radical who has to cover herself up like property and fear selling a customer Pizza. We are not immune to schools of indoctrination until we ban the teachings.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: feralkid
I find it disturbing how you've given up on any hope of Diplomacy, and suggest we need to start building more bombs.

Isn't that the attitude that's gotten us where we are right now?

he's a realist. When your enemy is not willing to compromise, and their only goal is to retake "their" old lands and rule them as Islamic states, what diplomatic offers can you possibly make that would do anything more than delay the inevitable?

I believe that it is all-or-nothing for most of our enemies. They will never compromise - instead, they'll simply wait us out. When the will of our people is diminished enough, our troops will be brought home, and our enemies will set about to create the Islamic coalition they dream of every day. They would then again, collectively, set their sites on Israel; and we'd be drawn right back into the fray...rinse and repeat until we're tired of doing it ourselves, and they will win.

Israel will be gone, and the entire ME will become one gigantic Islamic caliphate. (Sunni's and Shi'ites will eventually unite to form this caliphate).

With their newfound power and resources, they will begin to reach into Central Asia and eastern and southern Europe. Given Europe's tendency to capitulate without much of a fight, we'll eventually see an Islamic Crescent on the flags of Turkey, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, New Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, parts of Kazakhstan, parts of India... and even Spain and Portugal!

beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. But all of the above is my prediction.

Sound fun?

That is what COULD happen if the US gives up and pulls out of the ME entirely.

who likes gambling?

By far the biggest bunch of nonsense you'll ever read on the Internet. What's sad is that you actually believe terrorist networks have the ability to unite under one ideal and form a government in Iraq and elsewhere when they were completely unable to do so when Saddam was in power, yet they're somehow now going to be able to do it now with a much stronger Iraq than the one Saddam ruled?

Idiocy at it's finest.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
It has been the stated goal of Islam to Islam-i-fy the entire world since the day it came into existence. It hasn't happened. It's not going to happen. It's not about changing a few crazy a$$holes' minds... and we don't have to offer them anything. As Moonbeam said, (wow, I can't believe I'm referencing him) learning about the people of the rest of the world has an amazing moderating effect on people in general. Apparently it hasn't worked on you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work on others. (then again, the Iraqis and Arabs you describe and the ones I have met might as well be from two different planets.)

I have met plenty of Arabs and other Muslims who were somewhat secular, progressive, and otherwise liberal. In fact, as it stands, they are the vast majority of the Muslims in the world.

I also never labeled THEM as my enemy.

I also recognize that more and more of them are switching sides every day.. perhaps you are too detached from the ground war on terror to see that... but it's true.

The way you talk about people sacrificing their whole families to further the cause of Islam betrays a profound ignorance on your part of what motivates this suicidal sacrifice you talk about, and people in islamic countries in general.

you are absolutely wrong.

Please read this. I know you won't listen to me... but maybe you'll listen to someone else.

Pape makes some interesting points, and of course there is a strategic motive to AQ's attacks specifically; however, based on my first-hand experience and years of research, I personally believe that there are two sides to that coin. Pape attempts to dismiss outright the analysis' done by some of the foremost experts on Islam and terrorism, the world over - which is absurd.

In other words, thanks for giving me your (his) opinion. I've given you mine, and they are different. Deal with it.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
By far the biggest bunch of nonsense you'll ever read on the Internet. What's sad is that you actually believe terrorist networks have the ability to unite under one ideal and form a government in Iraq and elsewhere when they were completely unable to do so when Saddam was in power, yet they're somehow now going to be able to do it now with a much stronger Iraq than the one Saddam ruled?

Idiocy at it's finest.

Sadly enough, Saddam stood between the terrorists and a possible foothold in Iraq. Now that he is gone, if we were to leave prematurely, portions of Iraq would become a terrorist-training playground.

I don't know where you get the idea that there would be a "much stronger Iraq than the one Saddam ruled" if the US left. The complete opposite is true.

Without a US presence, the entire country of Iraq will collapse into several years of even more violent chaos than you see today. We are the only entity standing between the terrorists and their dream come true - fact.

Are you even paying attention? With all this talk about "idiocy," I think you need to grab a mirror.

 

[Lemon law]

To palehorse74 you says---In other words, thanks for giving me your (his) opinion. I've given you mine, and they are different. Deal with it.

Maybe your statement cuts to the chase---two totally contradictory interpretations---and maybe neither is totally right---but the deal with it implies we should buy one interpretation as being far more correct---and pitch the other in the garbage can.

In terms of your interpretation being the one to retain----you have a very big problem---we have just spent four plus years of been there done that kind of thinking----and its been a total failure. Not only has there been no progress, the progress is measured in ever increasing negative numbers. And you sound exactly like a person who stubbornly insists the accelerator pedal is really the brake pedal---and if you just keep pushing it the car will slow down.---and in a sense they are right---sooner or later the car will crash against a a rather hard object---and come to a totally disabling halt.

Smarter people realize that when you don't get the theorized result---its time to question your theory.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Smarter people realize that when you don't get the theorized result---its time to question your theory.

The only theory we've been discussing here is what could occur should the US leave the ME (Iraq) prematurely - a theory that has not been tested yet - and one that should not be tested anytime soon.

 

[Lemon law]

To Palehorse74---who points out---The only theory we've been discussing here is what could occur should the US leave the ME (Iraq) prematurely - a theory that has not been tested yet - and one that should not be tested anytime soon.

While I have stated I am not in the withdraw ASAP from Iraq camp---the flaw in your logic is and remains the fact that we continuing to stay in Iraq under the same flawed theories we used to get into the mess in the first place.---and its not that GWB&co. has made SOME mistakes in Iraq---its the fact that his reasoning is totally flawed, he does not even understand what he is fighting, and he has flat out done NOTHING right in Iraq.

What got us into Iraq and what we are doing now are just two sides of a totally counterfeit coin.

And its still get a new theory time---and that means we must throw GWB&co in the garbage can.----your stinking thinking may not matter---but GWB&co is hopeless.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Palehorse74---who points out---The only theory we've been discussing here is what could occur should the US leave the ME (Iraq) prematurely - a theory that has not been tested yet - and one that should not be tested anytime soon.

While I have stated I am not in the withdraw ASAP from Iraq camp---the flaw in your logic is and remains the fact that we continuing to stay in Iraq under the same flawed theories we used to get into the mess in the first place.---and its not that GWB&co. has made SOME mistakes in Iraq---its the fact that his reasoning is totally flawed, he does not even understand what he is fighting, and he has flat out done NOTHING right in Iraq.

What got us into Iraq and what we are doing now are just two sides of a totally counterfeit coin.

And its still get a new theory time---and that means we must throw GWB&co in the garbage can.----your stinking thinking may not matter---but GWB&co is hopeless.

I'm looking forward to 2008 just as much as the next guy, trust me...

And, right now, I'm even leaning toward Obama... just as long as his ticket isn't shat upon by Hillary...

Regardless of who sits in the white house, though, my theory on the longterm expansionist goals of Muslim extremists will not change.

 

[BoomerD]

The right keeps talking about terrorists in Iraq...when before the war, there were none...WE created the terrorists there by blowing the country up...those "terrorists" or "insurgents" would be called patriots or freedom fighters is we were on their side. Imagine such a thing happening here...some foreign country invades us, and destroys our way of life...MANY of us would take up arms against the invaders...and do WHAT EVER we could to stop them, harrass them, kill them...IED's? GREAT idea...Chlorine bombs? Another great idea...make waging war against us horrible and painful...
Anyone remember how the Iraqi army just disappeared when we invaded? Where did they go? Does anyone really think they just evaporated into thin air? Went home to live in peace with their families?
OR, couyld they have gone underground, to reform as "insurgents" to fight the infidels as a guerilla army...striking and disappearing into the "underbrush"...
Bush just plain fvcked up with his war...and we have to pay.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The right keeps talking about terrorists in Iraq...when before the war, there were none...WE created the terrorists there by blowing the country up...those "terrorists" or "insurgents" would be called patriots or freedom fighters is we were on their side.

There is a very big difference between the Iraqi insurgents and the foreign terrorists active in Iraq.

While it's true that their being in Iraq is our fault, that does not change the fact that they are there. The blame game won't get you anywhere in terms of ridding Iraq of foreign terrorists NOW.

Imagine such a thing happening here...some foreign country invades us, and destroys our way of life...MANY of us would take up arms against the invaders...and do WHAT EVER we could to stop them, harrass them, kill them...IED's? GREAT idea...Chlorine bombs? Another great idea...make waging war against us horrible and painful...

true enough. That is why the insurgency is somewhat understandable. However, the tribal and and ethnic in-fighting is entirely counter-productive, and does nothing to make their country better.

then again, you are once again forgetting the 3rd-party foreign terrorists who have made Iraq their proxy playground.

Anyone remember how the Iraqi army just disappeared when we invaded? Where did they go? Does anyone really think they just evaporated into thin air? Went home to live in peace with their families?
OR, couyld they have gone underground, to reform as "insurgents" to fight the infidels as a guerilla army...striking and disappearing into the "underbrush"...

gee, ya think?! thanks for the heads-up Captain Obvious! I'll inform the Administration of those devlopments right away!

Welcome to two years ago.

Bush just plain fvcked up with his war...and we have to pay.

Are you even willing to pay whatever price is necessary to make things right again? that could mean decades of involvement and billions more in expenditures... are you willing to do so?

Or should we just cut our losses, completely leave Iraq, now; and then cross our fingers, close our eyes, and hope for the best in that far-off land...?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The right keeps talking about terrorists in Iraq...when before the war, there were none...WE created the terrorists there by blowing the country up...those "terrorists" or "insurgents" would be called patriots or freedom fighters is we were on their side. Imagine such a thing happening here...some foreign country invades us, and destroys our way of life...MANY of us would take up arms against the invaders...and do WHAT EVER we could to stop them, harrass them, kill them...IED's? GREAT idea...Chlorine bombs? Another great idea...make waging war against us horrible and painful...
Anyone remember how the Iraqi army just disappeared when we invaded? Where did they go? Does anyone really think they just evaporated into thin air? Went home to live in peace with their families?
OR, couyld they have gone underground, to reform as "insurgents" to fight the infidels as a guerilla army...striking and disappearing into the "underbrush"...
Bush just plain fvcked up with his war...and we have to pay.

Actually Paul Bremer disbanded the Iraqi army while he was head of the CPA. It's been noted by som people that adding a few hundred thousand unemployed men to the mix in their early to mid 20's with significant weapons and explosives training might not have been the best idea.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The right keeps talking about terrorists in Iraq...when before the war, there were none...WE created the terrorists there by blowing the country up...those "terrorists" or "insurgents" would be called patriots or freedom fighters is we were on their side.

There is a very big difference between the Iraqi insurgents and the foreign terrorists active in Iraq.

While it's true that their being in Iraq is our fault, that does not change the fact that they are there. The blame game won't get you anywhere in terms of ridding Iraq of foreign terrorists NOW.

Imagine such a thing happening here...some foreign country invades us, and destroys our way of life...MANY of us would take up arms against the invaders...and do WHAT EVER we could to stop them, harrass them, kill them...IED's? GREAT idea...Chlorine bombs? Another great idea...make waging war against us horrible and painful...

true enough. That is why the insurgency is somewhat understandable. However, the tribal and and ethnic in-fighting is entirely counter-productive, and does nothing to make their country better.

then again, you are once again forgetting the 3rd-party foreign terrorists who have made Iraq their proxy playground.

Anyone remember how the Iraqi army just disappeared when we invaded? Where did they go? Does anyone really think they just evaporated into thin air? Went home to live in peace with their families?
OR, couyld they have gone underground, to reform as "insurgents" to fight the infidels as a guerilla army...striking and disappearing into the "underbrush"...

gee, ya think?! thanks for the heads-up Captain Obvious! I'll inform the Administration of those devlopments right away!

Welcome to two years ago.

No sh*t sherlock, but everyone keeps blaming everything on "foreign terrorists", yet they wouldn't be there if Bush hadn't fvcked this up so badly...and they're the minority of the problems there. The religious in-fighting, (civil war) is from the different factiion trying to gain control of their own country...Let them fight it out...ALL of Iraq isn't worth the cost of a single American soldier/Marine's life.

Bush just plain fvcked up with his war...and we have to pay.

Are you even willing to pay whatever price is necessary to make things right again? that could mean decades of involvement and billions more in expenditures... are you willing to do so?

Or should we just cut our losses, completely leave Iraq, now; and then cross our fingers, close our eyes, and hope for the best in that far-off land...? [/quote]

Plainly spoken...NO.
Personally, I don't think we'll ever turn Iraq into a M.E. democracy like some people think we should...I don't even believe we have the RIGHT to try. Seems like everytime America meddles in the affairs of a foreign country, it blows up in our faces...Look at neighboring Iran...The Shah was an American puppet...till Kohmeni (sp?) decided to take their country back...look how that turned out. I see something VERY similar happening in Iraq, regardless HOW long we stay. The religious whackos there will have their way...sooner or later...and we have only ourselves to blame.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The right keeps talking about terrorists in Iraq...when before the war, there were none...WE created the terrorists there by blowing the country up...those "terrorists" or "insurgents" would be called patriots or freedom fighters is we were on their side. Imagine such a thing happening here...some foreign country invades us, and destroys our way of life...MANY of us would take up arms against the invaders...and do WHAT EVER we could to stop them, harrass them, kill them...IED's? GREAT idea...Chlorine bombs? Another great idea...make waging war against us horrible and painful...
Anyone remember how the Iraqi army just disappeared when we invaded? Where did they go? Does anyone really think they just evaporated into thin air? Went home to live in peace with their families?
OR, couyld they have gone underground, to reform as "insurgents" to fight the infidels as a guerilla army...striking and disappearing into the "underbrush"...
Bush just plain fvcked up with his war...and we have to pay.

Actually Paul Bremer disbanded the Iraqi army while he was head of the CPA. It's been noted by som people that adding a few hundred thousand unemployed men to the mix in their early to mid 20's with significant weapons and explosives training might not have been the best idea.

In that we can all agree... I think.

It is actually one of the largest mistakes we've made in Iraq.

 

[Lemon law]

To Palehorse74---who says---It is actually one of the largest mistakes we've made in Iraq.

Maybe debatable---and the list of GWB&co. mistakes is rather lengthy and would take infinite time to even scratch the surface.

In the interests of forum brevity---lets talk about more doable things---like the incredibly short list of things GWB&co. has done right.---we should be able to completely cover that topic in a few minutes. In terms of that suggested topic---I am almost totally at a loss to think of anything the man has done right in his entire life.

And I also suggest that you need re-think that other assertion that we have the time to wait until 11/2008 to find better leadership. If we wait that long to fix Iraq--your fear of what a US withdrawal from Iraq would mean may be well realized if Iraq simply melts down and we get the defacto same result. Much of what is wrong with Iraq is rooted in the American sheeple---and I can well remember those days in 2003 when I was the tiny minority and GWB was basking in 90% approval ratings. The tide has changed and GWB is still clueless.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: tweaker2
yeah sure, democracy is good for us and may be good for them. but who are we that we should cram democracy down their throats

I would have to say in response that this as reasoning for an attack is wrong. So I agree with that notion. The idea that we?re going to collapse governments, create chaos in the midterm, and then patch it all up as a new democracy is flawed. Fighters from around the region, heck much of the globe, came to Iraq in our wake to hinder our efforts at creating a new Iraqi government. Our failure at this and their success is self evident.

?Terrorism?, as the new modern warfare thrives in such a chaotic situation. It?s their strength and we gave them the idealistic platform to combat us with. It?s very expensive on our part to combat them there with a fledgling Iraqi government. We cannot, and must not act in the principle that reshaping governments is going to bring about success.

The ideology of militant Islam is our primary opponent here, and I very much believe they can operate freely in a democracy. If our actions merely achieve that, then I believe we accomplish nothing.

They may be able to operate in a Democracy for a while but they will go extinct when they try to survive inside one. All these nuts come from places without much hope or liberal education, without being told how others may try to use their lives for the political goals of others.

In America we've raised a Muslim radical who has to cover herself up like property and fear selling a customer Pizza. We are not immune to schools of indoctrination until we ban the teachings.

Extremist students take over mosque

I say it again, the only protection from militant Islam is to banish the teachings.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Extremist students take over mosque

I say it again, the only protection from militant Islam is to banish the teachings.

Because we all know how well repressing a religion keeps it down. That's why we still worship the Roman pantheon.