For those of you who wonder why it's important for our troops to stay in Iraq, read....

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
Again, I am not affiliated with Stratfor. But they definitely give you a different perspective on things than our mainstream media does. Their basic subscription service is free. Last time I posted one of their articles here the Bush bashers didn't have much to say, it's hard to argue with facts and actual logic.

Basically the mainstream media and Democrats play right into the hands of the enemy with their short term outlook on things while Al Qaeda and company just wait us out, read on.......




Iraq: Jihadist Perspectives on a U.S. Withdrawal
By Fred Burton

Last week, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a nonbinding resolution to express disapproval of the president's plan to send more troops to Iraq. Republicans in the Senate prevented a similar resolution from coming to the floor for a vote the next day. The congressional actions come during a period of vigorous debate about U.S. involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan -- a debate that is being heavily fueled as presidential hopefuls from both parties begin to position themselves for the 2008 election.

Naturally, this internal debate and media coverage have focused on the American perspective -- and, more specifically, on public opinion polls. But often missing in that discussion is the fact that Afghanistan and Iraq were not entered into as self-contained discrete wars, but as fronts in the wider U.S.-jihadist war. Therefore, though the Bush administration's troop strategy, the positioning of the Democrats and the anti-war statements of potential presidential contenders are by no measure unimportant, the intense focus on these issues means that another important perspective on the war -- that of the jihadists -- frequently goes unmentioned.

Al Qaeda leaders and the jihadist movement in general always have taken a long view of the war, and discussion of a U.S. withdrawal from either Iraq or Afghanistan has long been anticipated. In planning the 9/11 attacks, al Qaeda leaders clearly expected that the United States, once drawn into a war, eventually would weaken and lose heart. A study of al Qaeda's philosophy, mindset and planning -- conveyed through the words and actions of its leadership -- is a reminder of just how the current U.S. political debate fits into the jihadist timeline and strategy.

It also is an indicator that a U.S. withdrawal from Muslim lands is not al Qaeda's ultimate requirement for ending attacks against the United States or American interests abroad.

Perceptions of American Resolve

Long before the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, Osama bin Laden clearly stated that, in the jihadists' opinion, the United States was not prepared to fight a war of attrition.

Prior to 9/11, bin Laden's public statements conveyed his dim view of the U.S. military's capabilities and resolve, as well as of the willingness of the U.S. government (and to a larger extent, the American people) to take casualties in a sustained war. In a 1997 interview with Peter Arnett, bin Laden said, "We learned from those who fought [in Somalia] that they were surprised to see the low spiritual morale of the American fighters in comparison with the experience they had with the Russian fighters. The Americans ran away from those fighters who fought and killed them, while the latter were still there. If the U.S. still thinks and brags that it still has this kind of power even after all these successive defeats in Vietnam, Beirut, Aden, and Somalia, then let them go back to those who are awaiting its return."

It is widely believed that the U.S. withdrawal from Lebanon, following the 1983 Marine barracks bombing, and from Somalia in 1993 were important precedents in driving the 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. The jihadists believed that if they killed enough Americans, U.S. forces would leave Saudi Arabia.

Bin Laden's opinion of U.S. resolve was not shaken by the "shock and awe" campaign that was unleashed in Afghanistan and, later, Iraq. In a February 2003 message, he said, "We can conclude that America is a superpower, with enormous military strength and vast economic power, but that all this is built on foundations of straw. So it is possible to target those foundations and focus on their weakest points which, even if you strike only one-tenth of them, then the whole edifice will totter and sway, and relinquish its unjust leadership of the world."

Bin Laden and other jihadist strategists often have stressed that the U.S. economy is one of the foundations to be attacked. However, another significant -- and in their view, vulnerable -- target is morale. In an October 2002 statement, marking the first anniversary of the Afghanistan invasion, bin Laden discussed the importance of "the media people and writers who have remarkable impact and a big role in directing the battle, and breaking the enemy's morale, and heightening the Ummah's morale."

He also noted that the Americans had failed to achieve their objectives in Afghanistan, saying, "The invading American forces in Afghanistan have now started to sink in the Afghani mud, with all of their equipment and personnel. The weird irony of the matter is that the Crusader forces, which came to protect the governing system in Kabul from the attacks of the mujahideen, have now come to need the protection of the regime's forces, having been dealt continuous blows by the mujahideen, so who protects who? The international and American forces had come to ensure the security [but] have become the biggest burden to security!!"

Orders given by Mullah Omar and his tactical commanders to Taliban fighters in Afghanistan also reflect this mindset. They are told not to go toe-to-toe with coalition forces in battle, but rather to increase the costs of doing battle in order to hasten the withdrawal of Western forces.

An al Qaeda military strategist and propagandist, Abu Ubeid al-Qurashi, expounded on this concept in an article titled "Fourth-Generation Wars," carried by the organization's biweekly Internet magazine, Al Ansar, in February 2002:

"Fourth-generation warfare, the experts said, is a new type of war in which fighting will be mostly scattered. The battle will not be limited to destroying military targets and regular forces, but will include societies, and will seek to destroy popular support for the fighters within the enemy's society. In these wars, the experts stated in their article, 'television news may become a more powerful operational weapon than armored divisions.' They also noted that 'the distinction between war and peace will be blurred to the vanishing point.'"

Al-Qurashi went on to extol jihadist successes in fourth-generation warfare, in settings ranging from Afghanistan to Somalia. He also noted that, like the Soviet Union, the United States was not well-suited to fight that type of war. And he predicted that al Qaeda's ideal structure for, and historical proficiency in, fourth-generation warfare ultimately would secure its victory -- despite the fact that jihadists were outgunned by the Americans in both types and quantities of weapons. Al-Qurashi said that while the U.S. military was designed and equipped with the concept of deterrence in mind -- that is, to deter attacks against the United States -- the guiding principle was not applicable in the struggle against a nonstate actor like al Qaeda.

"While the principle of deterrence works well between countries, it does not work at all for an organization with no permanent bases and with no capital in Western banks that does not rely on aid from particular countries. As a result, it is completely independent in its decisions, and it seeks conflict from the outset. How can such people, who strive for death more than anything else, be deterred?" he wrote.

In contrast, al Qaeda's leaders persistently have exhorted their followers to fight a war of attrition similar to that successfully waged by the mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan. In bin Laden's words, "We don't articulate and we don't quit."

One principle that has been emphasized in many statements by bin Laden and others is that the jihadists love death the way Americans love life -- a concept originally stated by Abu Bakr, a companion of the Prophet Muhammad, as he led an army into battle against the Persians.

A Four-Part Strategy

The United States' military response to the 9/11 attacks was the reaction al Qaeda wanted and expected. The statements of al Qaeda leaders have made it clear that the jihadists' goal was to make sure these became protracted, painful and costly wars.

Ayman al-Zawahiri put it this way in August 2003, as the insurgency in Iraq was beginning to take hold: "We are saying to America one thing: What you saw with your eyes so far are only initial skirmishes; as for the real battle, it hasn't even started yet."

Now, whether al Qaeda or the jihadist movement actually retains the capability to achieve its long-term goals is a matter for vigorous debate, and one we have explored at other times. For purposes of this analysis, however, it is useful to examine just what those long-term goals, to which al-Zawahiri obviously was alluding, actually are.

Internal al Qaeda documents indicate that a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan is but one of the stages factored into the movement's long-term planning. One of the most telling documents was a July 2005 letter from al-Zawahiri to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq, outlining a four-step strategy for establishing a caliphate in the "heart of the Islamic world." (The authenticity of the al-Zawahiri letter has been questioned by some, but our own analysis has led Stratfor to conclude it was bona fide.)

The steps he outlined were:
1) Expel the Americans from Iraq.
2) Establish an Islamic authority or emirate in Iraq.
3) Extend the jihad wave to secular countries neighboring Iraq.
4) Initiate a clash with Israel.

Al-Zawahiri said he was proposing the four-step strategy in order to "stress something extremely important" to al-Zarqawi, "and it is that the mujahideen must not have their mission end with the expulsion of the Americans from Iraq, and then lay down their weapons, and silence the fighting zeal." He clearly wanted the jihadists to press on toward bigger objectives following the U.S. withdrawal.

In the letter, he cautioned: "Things may develop faster than we imagine. The aftermath of the collapse of American power in Vietnam -- and how they ran and left their agents -- is noteworthy. Because of that, we must be ready starting now, before events overtake us, and before we are surprised by the conspiracies of the Americans and the United Nations and their plans to fill the void behind them. We must take the initiative and impose a fait accompli upon our enemies, instead of the enemy imposing one on us, wherein our lot would be to merely resist their schemes."

It follows from this that a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq would be construed by the jihadists as an opportunity to establish an important base or sanctuary -- and then to consolidate their gains and continue their "jihad wave" to other parts of the region. With that in mind, jihadist attacks against "Jews and Crusaders" could be expected to continue even after a U.S. departure from Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Ultimate Objective

Al Qaeda's grievances with the United States have been well documented by Stratfor and numerous others since the 9/11 attacks: Bin Laden was outraged by the presence of U.S. military forces in Saudi Arabia following the 1991 Gulf War, and by what he sees as an unholy alliance between Western powers and "apostate" secular regimes in the Islamic world. Historical conflicts between Muslim and Christian entities also have been referenced as a precedent for what bin Laden describes as "aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world" -- meaning the U.N. embargo against Iraq, the existence of Israel and U.S. support for said "apostate" regimes.

In a February 1998 statement, bin Laden declared that "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the Al Aqsa mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.

An important point is that al Qaeda defines terms like the "lands of Islam" as territory that includes present-day Israel, India and Spain. While Israel is clearly more significant to Muslims than other areas, given the importance of Jerusalem and the Al Aqsa mosque to Islam, Spain -- which was the Caliphate of al-Andalus from 711 to 1492 -- is also in the crosshairs. An equally important point is that the political shift in Madrid (which followed a 2004 commuter train attack in the capital) and the government's decision to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq have not removed Spain from the jihadists' target list. In a July 2006 message -- in which he threatened revenge for the Israeli aggression against Lebanon and the Palestinians -- al-Zawahiri said, "The war with Israel ... is a jihad for the sake of God ... a jihad that seeks to liberate Palestine, the whole of Palestine, and to liberate every land which (once belonged to) Islam, from Andalus to Iraq."

In other words, at least as long as the state of Israel exists -- and the "apostate" governments in places like Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Morocco and Kuwait remain in power, with U.S. support -- the jihadists will continue to complain about U.S. "aggression against Islam." And, insofar as they are able, they will carry on their war.
Contact Us
Analysis Comments - analysis@stratfor.com
Customer Service, Access, Account Issues - service@stratfor.com

Was this forwarded to you? Sign up to start receiving your own copy ? it?s always thought-provoking, insightful and free.

Go to <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.stratfor.com/subscriptions/free-weekly-intelligence-reports.php"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.stratfor.com/subscriptions/free-weekly-intelligence-reports.php">https://www.stratfor.com/subscrip.........eekly-intelligence-reports.php</a></a> to register

Did you know you can now cut through the clutter with your own personal intelligence briefs from Stratfor?

Whether your interest is geopolitics, security, counterterrorism or the global market, with Stratfor's new individual email subscriptions it has never been easier or more affordable to get timely insights and analysis on the events that have the potential to alter the course of things at home or on the global arena.

For only $49/year, each individual intelligence brief will help you get a head start on your day with the information you want waiting for you in your inbox. Click here to learn more.

Distribution and Reprints
This report may be distributed or republished with attribution to Strategic Forecasting, Inc. at www.stratfor.com. For media requests, partnership opportunities, or commercial distribution or republication, please contact pr@stratfor.com.

Newsletter Subscription
To unsubscribe from receiving this free intelligence report, please click here.

 
B

Blackjack2000

There is no analysis in this article; just bits designed to scare people. Where is the evidence that keeping troops in Iraq would be beneficial? We all know what Bin Laden thinks, but there is also no examination of how U.S. presence in the gulf affects Bin Laden's ability to recruit.
 

Termagant

Senior member
Mar 10, 2006
765
0
0
Originally posted by: Blackjack2000
There is no analysis in this article; just bits designed to scare people. Where is the evidence that keeping troops in Iraq would be beneficial? We all know what Bin Laden thinks, but there is also no examination of how U.S. presence in the gulf affects Bin Laden's ability to recruit.

Every Muslim in the Middle East is a terrist and hates yer freedumbs, if we don't fight them there they will all come to America and fight us here.
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
There is no analysis in this article; just bits designed to scare people. Where is the evidence that keeping troops in Iraq would be beneficial? We all know what Bin Laden thinks, but there is also no examination of how U.S. presence in the gulf affects Bin Laden's ability to recruit.

The main thing I gleaned from the article was the same thing brought up right after 9/11. The Al Qaeda and Muslim fundamentalists have a long term outlook on things, how many years did they plan out 9/11? They had to go to flight school for years, etc.... The average American Joe has a very short term outlook on things, our troops are being killed, that's bad, we should pull out now.......without thinking about the long term consequences of our actions. The mainstream media, of course, plays right into their hands with their daily body counts, etc... instead of actually showing the progress being made over there. I talked to a Naval Liaison type officer who returned recently from Iraq. He said that the actual situation in Iraq is nowhere near as dire as the media makes it out to be.

Anyway, just throwing out another viewpoint on things. Take from it what you may.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: John P.
There is no analysis in this article; just bits designed to scare people. Where is the evidence that keeping troops in Iraq would be beneficial? We all know what Bin Laden thinks, but there is also no examination of how U.S. presence in the gulf affects Bin Laden's ability to recruit.

The main thing I gleaned from the article was the same thing brought up right after 9/11. The Al Qaeda and Muslim fundamentalists have a long term outlook on things, how many years did they plan out 9/11? They had to go to flight school for years, etc.... The average American Joe has a very short term outlook on things, our troops are being killed, that's bad, we should pull out now.......without thinking about the long term consequences of our actions. The mainstream media, of course, plays right into their hands with their daily body counts, etc... instead of actually showing the progress being made over there. I talked to a Naval Liaison type officer who returned recently from Iraq. He said that the actual situation in Iraq is nowhere near as dire as the media makes it out to be.

Anyway, just throwing out another viewpoint on things. Take from it what you may.

yes, was a pretty good read. I posted it a couple of weeks ago or so.
They do put out some good info.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,049
6,359
136
most of the strategy described in the article looks to be taken right out of the north vietnamese/viet cong playbook of the 50's-70's. main difference being different time and place.

history is repeating itself with the neocons now being directly responsible for the same type of imperialist/expansionist arrogance and ignorance displayed in southeast asia that had france and the US learning a hard lesson in attempting to defeat what cannot be defeated with bombs, bullets and bullying. our military learned its lessons there, but obviously the neocons haven't.

basically, the iraqi/iran conflict was FUBAR'D from the get-go because greedy arrogant businessmen applied a hostile takeover type business strategy in iraq for reasons of pure profiteering under the now thoroughly debunked guise of fighting terrorism abroad.

why shouldn't a logical person expect the same type of cause and effect that the vietnam conflict produced?
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
yes, was a pretty good read. I posted it a couple of weeks ago or so.

Ah, I don't hang out on this forum much, shoulda done a search.... just happened to peek over and saw all the war protest threads so was compelled to post this.

I checked out your thread and, as I suspected, only 8 replies. The Bush bashing and war protest threads get like hundreds.... just gotta chuckle, although it's pretty scary how most people's opinions are formed.

I like how the war protestor's are planning to "disrupt the evening commute" with some of their planned marches next week. No thought about people getting off work and getting kids to their little leaque practices or perhaps even slowing up emergency vehicles, it's all about putting on a good show for the cameras.
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
most of the strategy described in the article looks to be taken right out of the north vietnamese/viet cong playbook of the 50's-70's. main difference being different time and place.

history is repeating itself with the neocons now being directly responsible for the same type of imperialist/expansionist arrogance and ignorance displayed in southeast asia that had france and the US learning a hard lesson in attempting to defeat what cannot be defeated with bombs, bullets and bullying. our military learned its lessons there, but obviously the neocons haven't.

basically, the iraqi/iran conflict was FUBAR'D from the get-go because greedy arrogant businessmen applied a hostile takeover type business strategy in iraq for reasons of pure profiteering under the now thoroughly debunked guise of fighting terrorism abroad.

why shouldn't a logical person expect the same type of cause and effect that the vietnam conflict produced?

Your entitled to your opinion obviously, but I would like to hear your solution to the problems.
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
2,607
0
76
Originally posted by: John P.

I like how the war protestor's are planning to "disrupt the evening commute" with some of their planned marches next week. No thought about people getting off work and getting kids to their little leaque practices or perhaps even slowing up emergency vehicles, it's all about putting on a good show for the cameras.

Yeah, we know how you guys would so love to spray them with gunfire to show them who the "real Murikans" are :roll:
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,049
6,359
136
the solution to what problems specifically? it seems as if the powers that be want to prolong this conflict as long as possible to extract as much profit as possible from the area.

from that point of view, the only problem that now exists is how to keep this conflict going in such a way as to keep the profiteering going except at higher levels. presently, pouring more troops into the area but not enough to gain complete control and end the conflict seems to fit right in with the aforementioned business model.

to find the right "solutions", you need to find the real reason we're there first. from the point of view that we're there to "fight terrorism", the current strategy doesn't/didn't make much sense. so how can you apply solutions to a problem that doesn't make sense in the first place?

the dems have been providing "solutions" all through this conflict, all of which have only been met with talking points and jingoisms directly out of cheney and rove's minds via bush's mouth.

it seems the dems solutions to the problem is in direct conflict with a strategy that calls for prolonging the current status of the "problem" as long as possible.

edit - syntax
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
the dems have been providing "solutions" all through this conflict, all of which have only been met with talking points and jingoisms directly out of cheney and rove's minds via bush's mouth.

it seems the dems solutions to the problem is in direct conflict with a strategythat calls for prolonging the current status of the "problem" as long as possible.

Which solutions were those?

the solution to what problems specifically?

In my opinion (and the majority of the people actually fighting the war on the ground and people I have talked to who have been there) the main reason the troops are there are so the Iraqis have a chance to set up a democratic government. Otherwise we end up with another brutal dictator or backward Muslim extremist state and further instability in an already unstable region.

You probably have some valid points about Haliburton and whatnot, but that's a tiny offshoot of the bigger picture we need to look at. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be dealt with though.

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
So John P. - let me just cut to the chase. You think we can win an asymmetrical war against the terrorists with our military? And with that military tied down playing traffic cop during their occupation of Iraq? You gotta be kidding me.
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
So John P. - let me just cut to the chase. You think we can win an asymmetrical war against the terrorists with our military? And with that military tied down playing traffic cop during their occupation of Iraq? You gotta be kidding me.

I won't even pretend I'm smart enough to know the answer to that.

I'm just hoping somebody smarter than me figures out a better solution.

I do know that just giving up and yanking all our troops out or marching around with signs blocking traffic ain't gonna solve the problem though.

 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
32,671
6,801
136
Originally posted by: Blackjack2000
There is no analysis in this article; just bits designed to scare people. Where is the evidence that keeping troops in Iraq would be beneficial? We all know what Bin Laden thinks, but there is also no examination of how U.S. presence in the gulf affects Bin Laden's ability to recruit.

I did not read any argument in that article about withdraw. I find you?re looking for something that is not there.



As for the major points I take, the first is that they see us as weak. They should, because Terrorism is a misnomer. What we call terrorism the article calls ?Fourth-Generation Wars? and it is far more accurate. What we?re fighting against now in Afghanistan and Iraq is the next and superior evolution in warfare.

Half of their strength is our unwillingness to fight, the other half is that to fight them means capturing an entire population and filtering out fighters from the innocent. This results in higher casualties for both sides, but for them it?s not necessarily their fighters that die with civilians in the midst of the combat.

In the past, an army would starve, punish, and eventually commit genocide against an entire population to ensure the fighters hiding among could not escape. The population had to make a choice between fighting and dying or surrendering and living. Today we do not force them to make that choice, we are no longer brutal against the population and our good will permits their fighters to operate freely and wage war against us.

In this situation, we?re proving that we lose a war of attrition.



Another point made is the historical perspective.

al-Zawahiri said, "The war with Israel ... is a jihad for the sake of God ... a jihad that seeks to liberate Palestine, the whole of Palestine, and to liberate every land which (once belonged to) Islam, from Andalus to Iraq."

The lands Muslim armies captured in Spain 1,000 years ago are also intended for the same reclamation as Israeli land. How do you have peace talks and compromise when the end desire is a Crescent for your flag?

This is an upcoming global war that, as mentioned, hasn?t even come close to starting in earnest yet. When it begins, we had best be prepared to do all that is necessary, unlike our failures today.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
81,252
43,184
136
Originally posted by: John P.
yes, was a pretty good read. I posted it a couple of weeks ago or so.

Ah, I don't hang out on this forum much, shoulda done a search.... just happened to peek over and saw all the war protest threads so was compelled to post this.

I checked out your thread and, as I suspected, only 8 replies. The Bush bashing and war protest threads get like hundreds.... just gotta chuckle, although it's pretty scary how most people's opinions are formed.

I like how the war protestor's are planning to "disrupt the evening commute" with some of their planned marches next week. No thought about people getting off work and getting kids to their little leaque practices or perhaps even slowing up emergency vehicles, it's all about putting on a good show for the cameras.


I think a lot of it depends on where you are in Iraq. A friend of mine works for the state department there and when I asked him how things were over there he said "I guess it's not hopeless yet, but it's getting there". So.. yeah I guess it depends on where they are, and what they're doing.

Also, you realize that the whole point of a protest right? To get attention for something? I always laugh when I hear people say things like "sure it's their right to protest, but why do they have to cause trouble for people who aren't involved?" They're doing that on purpose. That's what protests do.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,049
6,359
136
hey, i was there myself. i needed a reason to lay my life on the line just as all the other military personnel there at the time. call it what you will, i didn't have a choice in the matter, i had to go, and i needed all the justification i could find to leave my happy comfortable and safe lifetstyle and go off to a place where people hated me and wanted to kill me with every fiber in their being twice.

well, i'm now militarily retired and can now look at the current situation from both an insider's and outsider's point of view.

when i was in 'nam and saudi (desert storm, op northern/southern watch), it all boiled down to looking out for me and my buddies, period. any other reason to be where i was at the time was meaningless and meant for how we felt/appeared to people outside of the unit.

my military indoctrination dictated that i be proud to wear the uniform, proud to be in the unit and dept. of service i was in and proud to fight/die for my country, and i was/ still am. everywhere we went we kicked ass. we did our job.

but i now have the luxury of being a PFC - private-f'n-citizen - and can now look at the "war on terror" from that point of view.

i feel for the troops there with a passion. i share in their concerns from the same eyes.

i know they really don't want to be there to die needlessly just as i felt when i was there. i needed a cause an justification the same as they did/do.

but from an outsider's point of view, i see an administration that lied us into that conflict. i see an administration that my "street sense" tells me they must be treated with all the respect and admiration that i would give a dishonest used car salesman. they are proven liars and operate in the shadows of secrecy, disinformation and slanted language.

yeah sure, democracy is good for us and may be good for them. but who are we that we should cram democracy down their throats when we decide it's their time in a manner that completely ignores their history, traditions and religion? and for what real reason?

edit - content
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,145
4,121
136
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Blackjack2000
There is no analysis in this article; just bits designed to scare people. Where is the evidence that keeping troops in Iraq would be beneficial? We all know what Bin Laden thinks, but there is also no examination of how U.S. presence in the gulf affects Bin Laden's ability to recruit.

I did not read any argument in that article about withdraw. I find you?re looking for something that is not there.



As for the major points I take, the first is that they see us as weak. They should, because Terrorism is a misnomer. What we call terrorism the article calls ?Fourth-Generation Wars? and it is far more accurate. What we?re fighting against now in Afghanistan and Iraq is the next and superior evolution in warfare.

Half of their strength is our unwillingness to fight, the other half is that to fight them means capturing an entire population and filtering out fighters from the innocent. This results in higher casualties for both sides, but for them it?s not necessarily their fighters that die with civilians in the midst of the combat.

In the past, an army would starve, punish, and eventually commit genocide against an entire population to ensure the fighters hiding among could not escape. The population had to make a choice between fighting and dying or surrendering and living. Today we do not force them to make that choice, we are no longer brutal against the population and our good will permits their fighters to operate freely and wage war against us.

In this situation, we?re proving that we lose a war of attrition.



Another point made is the historical perspective.

al-Zawahiri said, "The war with Israel ... is a jihad for the sake of God ... a jihad that seeks to liberate Palestine, the whole of Palestine, and to liberate every land which (once belonged to) Islam, from Andalus to Iraq."

The lands Muslim armies captured in Spain 1,000 years ago are also intended for the same reclamation as Israeli land. How do you have peace talks and compromise when the end desire is a Crescent for your flag?

This is an upcoming global war that, as mentioned, hasn?t even come close to starting in earnest yet. When it begins, we had best be prepared to do all that is necessary, unlike our failures today.


........................................

I find it disturbing how you've given up on any hope of Diplomacy, and suggest we need to start building more bombs.

Isn't that the attitude that's gotten us where we are right now?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Before I go off on a tangent I do want to thank tweaker2 for his post and his service.

But I just had to endure watching a similar debate by the talking heads on the Sunday news shows----with the war supporters--who were also the the Iraqi war architects hammering the point that we simply could not let AL Quida win.

I was more or less screaming at the television and the clueless show moderator that he needed to point out they sounded exactly like 6 year old kids in kindergarten---and one child has picked up a very hot potato and everyone else is double dog daring them to keep a hold of the hot potato---and if they let the hot potato go they become wimps.

The point being, they never should have picked up the hot potato in the first place---and we are not fighting AL-Quida in Iraq---we are fighting home grown militas who are the defacto
law and government now remaining in Iraq. With the Iraqi military we have trained already co-opted into the militias.

Until we can come up with the 500,000 or so non-Iraqi troops needed to patrol the streets and restore a government---all we are doing is holding onto a hot potato. And we should be running the architects of the Iraqi war out of town on a rail--and clothing them in garments of tar and feathers.---they were clueless then and clueless now---precisely the last people we should even listen to.----we need to find a diplomatic solution and reach out to the international community for help---and step one in getting the international community back is giving the boobs who got us into this mess the old heave ho.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: tweaker2
hey, i was there myself. i needed a reason to lay my life on the line just as all the other military personnel there at the time. call it what you will, i didn't have a choice in the matter, i had to go, and i needed all the justification i could find to leave my happy comfortable and safe lifetstyle and go off to a place where people hated me and wanted to kill me with every fiber in their being twice.

well, i'm now militarily retired and can now look at the current situation from both an insider's and outsider's point of view.

when i was in 'nam and saudi (desert storm, op northern/southern watch), it all boiled down to looking out for me and my buddies, period. any other reason to be where i was at the time was meaningless and meant for how we felt/appeared to people outside of the unit.

my military indoctrination dictated that i be proud to wear the uniform, proud to be in the unit and dept. of service i was in and proud to fight/die for my country, and i was/ still am. everywhere we went we kicked ass. we did our job.

but i now have the luxury of being a PFC - private-f'n-citizen - and can now look at the "war on terror" from that point of view.

i feel for the troops there with a passion. i share in their concerns from the same eyes.

i know they really don't want to be there to die needlessly just as i felt when i was there. i needed a cause an justification the same as they did/do.

but from an outsider's point of view, i see an administration that lied us into that conflict. i see an administration that my "street sense" tells me they must be treated with all the respect and admiration that i would give a dishonest used car salesman. they are proven liars and operate in the shadows of secrecy, disinformation and slanted language.

yeah sure, democracy is good for us and may be good for them. but who are we that we should cram democracy down their throats when we decide it's their time in a manner that completely ignores their history, traditions and religion? and for what real reason?

Not to murky the waters, but
didn't we more or less do that to the Japanese as well?

edit - content

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
71,359
5,731
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Before I go off on a tangent I do want to thank tweaker2 for his post and his service.

But I just had to endure watching a similar debate by the talking heads on the Sunday news shows----with the war supporters--who were also the the Iraqi war architects hammering the point that we simply could not let AL Quida win.

I was more or less screaming at the television and the clueless show moderator that he needed to point out they sounded exactly like 6 year old kids in kindergarten---and one child has picked up a very hot potato and everyone else is double dog daring them to keep a hold of the hot potato---and if they let the hot potato go they become wimps.

The point being, they never should have picked up the hot potato in the first place---and we are not fighting AL-Quida in Iraq---we are fighting home grown militas who are the defacto
law and government now remaining in Iraq. With the Iraqi military we have trained already co-opted into the militias.

Until we can come up with the 500,000 or so non-Iraqi troops needed to patrol the streets and restore a government---all we are doing is holding onto a hot potato. And we should be running the architects of the Iraqi war out of town on a rail--and clothing them in garments of tar and feathers.---they were clueless then and clueless now---precisely the last people we should even listen to.----we need to find a diplomatic solution and reach out to the international community for help---and step one in getting the international community back is giving the boobs who got us into this mess the old heave ho.

The war was a tragic mistake. The people running it are traitors, in my opinion. They spout lies as to why we should stay. Does that mean we should pull out immediately. I do not know, but I think our leaving will also be a disaster.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: feralkid
I find it disturbing how you've given up on any hope of Diplomacy, and suggest we need to start building more bombs.

Isn't that the attitude that's gotten us where we are right now?
he's a realist. When your enemy is not willing to compromise, and their only goal is to retake "their" old lands and rule them as Islamic states, what diplomatic offers can you possibly make that would do anything more than delay the inevitable?

I believe that it is all-or-nothing for most of our enemies. They will never compromise - instead, they'll simply wait us out. When the will of our people is diminished enough, our troops will be brought home, and our enemies will set about to create the Islamic coalition they dream of every day. They would then again, collectively, set their sites on Israel; and we'd be drawn right back into the fray...rinse and repeat until we're tired of doing it ourselves, and they will win.

Israel will be gone, and the entire ME will become one gigantic Islamic caliphate. (Sunni's and Shi'ites will eventually unite to form this caliphate).

With their newfound power and resources, they will begin to reach into Central Asia and eastern and southern Europe. Given Europe's tendency to capitulate without much of a fight, we'll eventually see an Islamic Crescent on the flags of Turkey, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, New Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, parts of Kazakhstan, parts of India... and even Spain and Portugal!

beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. But all of the above is my prediction.

Sound fun?

That is what COULD happen if the US gives up and pulls out of the ME entirely.

who likes gambling?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: feralkid
I find it disturbing how you've given up on any hope of Diplomacy, and suggest we need to start building more bombs.

Isn't that the attitude that's gotten us where we are right now?
he's a realist. When your enemy is not willing to compromise, and their only goal is to retake "their" old lands and rule them as Islamic states, what diplomatic offers can you possibly make that would do anything more than delay the inevitable?

I believe that it is all-or-nothing for most of our enemies. They will never compromise - instead, they'll simply wait us out. When the will of our people is diminished enough, our troops will be brought home, and our enemies will set about to create the Islamic coalition they dream of every day. They would then again, collectively, set their sites on Israel; and we'd be drawn right back into the fray...rinse and repeat until we're tired of doing it ourselves, and they will win.

Israel will be gone, and the entire ME will become one gigantic Islamic caliphate. (Sunni's and Shi'ites will eventually unite to form this caliphate).

With their newfound power and resources, they will begin to reach into Central Asia and eastern and southern Europe. Given Europe's tendency to capitulate without much of a fight, we'll eventually see an Islamic Crescent on the flags of Turkey, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, New Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, parts of Kazakhstan, parts of India... and even Spain and Portugal!

beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. But all of the above is my prediction.

Sound fun?

That is what COULD happen if the US gives up and pulls out of the ME entirely.

who likes gambling?
PNAC Translation=The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Anyway, pulling out of Iraq is not pulling out of the entire M.E.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,760
6,141
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: feralkid
I find it disturbing how you've given up on any hope of Diplomacy, and suggest we need to start building more bombs.

Isn't that the attitude that's gotten us where we are right now?
he's a realist. When your enemy is not willing to compromise, and their only goal is to retake "their" old lands and rule them as Islamic states, what diplomatic offers can you possibly make that would do anything more than delay the inevitable?

I believe that it is all-or-nothing for most of our enemies. They will never compromise - instead, they'll simply wait us out. When the will of our people is diminished enough, our troops will be brought home, and our enemies will set about to create the Islamic coalition they dream of every day. They would then again, collectively, set their sites on Israel; and we'd be drawn right back into the fray...rinse and repeat until we're tired of doing it ourselves, and they will win.

Israel will be gone, and the entire ME will become one gigantic Islamic caliphate. (Sunni's and Shi'ites will eventually unite to form this caliphate).

With their newfound power and resources, they will begin to reach into Central Asia and eastern and southern Europe. Given Europe's tendency to capitulate without much of a fight, we'll eventually see an Islamic Crescent on the flags of Turkey, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, New Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, parts of Kazakhstan, parts of India... and even Spain and Portugal!

beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. But all of the above is my prediction.

Sound fun?

That is what COULD happen if the US gives up and pulls out of the ME entirely.

who likes gambling?

That could happen if we are tied down in Iraq and unable to respond to help in other places. There is not going to be public support for helping in all those other places, even if there is real benefit, as long as this blunder in Iraq is not concluded. It's already happening with the Sudan.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: feralkid
I find it disturbing how you've given up on any hope of Diplomacy, and suggest we need to start building more bombs.

Isn't that the attitude that's gotten us where we are right now?
he's a realist. When your enemy is not willing to compromise, and their only goal is to retake "their" old lands and rule them as Islamic states, what diplomatic offers can you possibly make that would do anything more than delay the inevitable?

I believe that it is all-or-nothing for most of our enemies. They will never compromise - instead, they'll simply wait us out. When the will of our people is diminished enough, our troops will be brought home, and our enemies will set about to create the Islamic coalition they dream of every day. They would then again, collectively, set their sites on Israel; and we'd be drawn right back into the fray...rinse and repeat until we're tired of doing it ourselves, and they will win.

Israel will be gone, and the entire ME will become one gigantic Islamic caliphate. (Sunni's and Shi'ites will eventually unite to form this caliphate).

With their newfound power and resources, they will begin to reach into Central Asia and eastern and southern Europe. Given Europe's tendency to capitulate without much of a fight, we'll eventually see an Islamic Crescent on the flags of Turkey, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, New Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, parts of Kazakhstan, parts of India... and even Spain and Portugal!

beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. But all of the above is my prediction.

Sound fun?

That is what COULD happen if the US gives up and pulls out of the ME entirely.

who likes gambling?
PNAC Translation=The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Anyway, pulling out of Iraq is not pulling out of the entire M.E.
Do you deny or discount our enemies' desire to establish a caliphate which unites all of the ancient Islamic lands? Or do you simply believe that such unity is impossible?
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY