For those of you who wonder why it's important for our troops to stay in Iraq, read....

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

SickNic

Member
Sep 29, 2006
53
0
0
Originally posted by: John P.
This picture sums up the whole article...

Again, nothing with substance, just more namecalling.

Here is some substance:

I think we should give bush's surge a chance, and see if it does anything good. I think it would be a mistake to withdraw our tropps completely too early. I think, even if this war is based on lies, we are there and need to fix things up.

At the same time, I think that article is complete propaganda, using fear to convince people the troops need to stay. And that, my friend, I am completely against. You don't need to use scare tactics to get people to comply with you if your President. There is nothing unpatriotic about wanting the troops to come home.
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
We pay billions of dollars for smart people to see us out of sticky situations, and they fail miserably on a regular basis.

That we can agree on. I sure wish the Congress and Senate from both sides would work together to find some actual solutions to foreign and domestic policy than play political games to make each other look bad.

It seems that a lot of the thought process amongst the left wingers is to not get too involved so we can remain friends with everyone. While not the greatest of analogies this reminds me of the type of people who ignore a bully or abusive spouse because they are not directly involved and if they were to get involved they may have to confront the bully or abusive spouse themselves. Their life might not be as comfortable as it was before they confronted the bully.

There are no absolutes, we need both diplomacy and to show some muscle. You can't have one without the other. It's just figuring out the right mix that's the problem.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
John P.:
You still continue to dance around the Confederation Option, once posting "I would consider it a viable option if nothing else works, but not quite yet. ", then avoiding all further mention of this idea. Do you dismiss it because it is a decent suggestion from a Democrat and negates your contention that no one has presented a workable alternative to Bush's expansion of the "military only" solution and continuing insistence on a unitary federal Iraq?

The second Stratfor report you posted is interesting. It actually infers a shared U.S.-Iranian desire for a stable Iraq and an end to the insurgency. While Iran certainly lacks the ability to impose its own solution on Iraq, it certainly has the power to help the U.S. stabilize the region. Unfortunately, this administration appears more eager to demonize an "Axis of Evil" than to explore all possibilities in resolving our problems. Furthermore, while Syria may be focused to the south (Lebanon & Israel), it cannot benefit from anarchy on its eastern border.

FYI, my source for information on Iraq's economy is the Brookings Institute Saban Center for Middle East Policy Iraq Index. They provide figures both for Baghdad and for the entire country. Please note that if the Kurdish region is indeed doing well, the results for the Shi'ite and Sunni regions outside Baghdad must be truly abysmal for the national average still to be down.
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: John P.
We pay billions of dollars for smart people to see us out of sticky situations, and they fail miserably on a regular basis.

That we can agree on. I sure wish the Congress and Senate from both sides would work together to find some actual solutions to foreign and domestic policy than play political games to make each other look bad.

It seems that a lot of the thought process amongst the left wingers is to not get too involved so we can remain friends with everyone. While not the greatest of analogies this reminds me of the type of people who ignore a bully or abusive spouse because they are not directly involved and if they were to get involved they may have to confront the bully or abusive spouse themselves. Their life might not be as comfortable as it was before they confronted the bully.

There are no absolutes, we need both diplomacy and to show some muscle. You can't have one without the other. It's just figuring out the right mix that's the problem.

Good, at least we're on the same planet when it comes to government. ;) Let's try for a meeting of the minds on your first premise: that the parties should "get together."

More often than not the simple act of government trying to "fix" something is doomed to failure, There are some conditions that are simply part of life, and tossing money at them, which is seemingly the only remedy our government ever proposes, simply leads to higher taxes/debt, further shrinkage of the few personal freedoms we have left, and rising hatred for the US. The bloated "war on terror" is a perfect example of this.

Let's paraphrase this one: "Liberals suck!" Sorry P, I'm no where near being a liberal. In fact, in the purest political sense, I'm very conservative. I want the government gagged and tossed back into it's constitutional cage and limited to its enumerated duties. If that means some people have to wring their hands at the inherent injustices that life brings, then so what? You use the battered spouse/bully analogy to convert a situation that should be viewed with rational thought into an emotion festival. This posture is what gets us into deep water every time. The US is NOT the worlds police force. There's no moral imperative to behave this way, and as Americans we sure as hell haven't proven ourselves intelligent or fair enough to even approach that sort of responsibility. Isn't it the slightest bit telling that the "bully" in the Iraq scenario just happened to be sitting on a see of oil?

The only valid time for showing muscle, as you put, is when self-defense is clearly needed. What did Iraq ever do to us? The "absolute" and factual answer is nothing. That Hussein was an ass isn't enough, in fact we were bestest buddies with him until until it became idealogically expedient to boot him out. In fact, if being brutal is the criteria for preemptive attack, the US would be fighting most of the world right now. The Bush coven KNEW that the American public wouldn't buy a neocon fantasy, so they lied us into it.

If the facts of the matter haven't turned you off to the idea that the US has the right to rule the world, then what will?

 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
The only valid time for showing muscle, as you put, is when self-defense is clearly needed. What did Iraq ever do to us? The "absolute" and factual answer is nothing. That Hussein was an ass isn't enough, in fact we were bestest buddies with him until until it became idealogically expedient to boot him out. In fact, if being brutal is the criteria for preemptive attack, the US would be fighting most of the world right now. The Bush coven KNEW that the American public wouldn't buy a neocon fantasy, so they lied us into it.


I can't say you're entirely wrong, but I can say that you aren't entirely right either. I'll post another Stratfor article as food for thought (see next post).

I actually think the main reason we went into Iraq was to get rid of a brutal dictator who supposedly had WMD's and terrorist ties with the end goal of giving Iraq a chance to set up a democratic government to add some stability to an otherwise instable region. There were no real lies (in my book at least) - Bush and company just did a horrible job justifying why we attacked Iraq. They thought the WMD thing would be easy to explain to the average Joe and it just happened to be based on bad intelligence and backfired horribly. I still think he had some stuff and it was shipped to Syria or destroyed, but that's obviously a moot point now. I'll have to dig up the Stratfor article on that subject, explains in much better than I can.....

I like this quote from the end of the article:

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

Read below for more explanation....
 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
I don't know if this is one I was thinking of but I like how it spells out the other options we coulda/shoulda pursued. This is from 9/12/2006:

The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman

It has been five years since the Sept. 11 attacks. In thinking about the course of the war against al Qaeda, two facts emerge pre-eminent.

The first is that the war has succeeded far better than anyone would have thought on Sept. 12, 2001. We remember that day clearly, and had anyone told us that there would be no more al Qaeda attacks in the United States for at least five years, we would have been incredulous. Yet there have been no attacks.

The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.

A Strategic Response

The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.

In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.

The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.

The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:

1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.

2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.

3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.

The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.

Hindsight: The Search for an Ideal Strategy

The ideal outcome likely would have been to carry out the first and third operations without the second. As many would argue, an acceptable outcome would have been to carry out the Afghanistan operation without going into Iraq. This is the crux of the debate that has been raging since the Iraq invasion and that really began earlier, during the Afghan war, albeit in muted form. On the one side, the argument is that by invading Muslim countries, the United States has played into al Qaeda's hands and actually contributed to radicalization among Islamists -- and that by refraining from invasion, the Americans would have reduced the threat posed by al Qaeda. On the other side, the argument has been made that without these two invasions -- the one for direct tactical reasons, the other for psychological and political reasons -- al Qaeda would be able to operate securely and without effective interference from U.S. intelligence and that, therefore, these invasions were the price to be paid.

There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:

1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.

2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.

3. The United States needed to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan -- the former for strategic reasons and to intimidate key players, the latter to disrupt al Qaeda operations and its home base.

It is interesting to pause and consider that the argument is rarely this clear-cut. Those arguing for Option 1 rarely explain how U.S. covert operations would be carried out, and frequently oppose those operations as well. Those who make the second argument fail to explain how, given that the command cell of al Qaeda had escaped Afghanistan, the United States would continue the war -- or more precisely, where the Americans would get the intelligence to fight a covert war. Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.

In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.

Covert War and a Logical Progression

The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.

The issue was in motivating these governments to cooperate with the U.S. effort. The Saudis in particular were dubious about U.S. will, given previous decades of behavior. Officials in Riyadh frankly were more worried about al Qaeda's behavior within Saudi Arabia if they collaborated with the Americans than they were about the United States acting resolutely. Recall that the Saudis asked U.S. forces to leave Saudi Arabia after 9/11. Changing the kingdom's attitude was a necessary precursor to waging the covert war, just as Afghanistan was a precursor to changing attitudes in Pakistan.

Invading Iraq was a way for the United States to demonstrate will, while occupying strategic territory to bring further pressure against countries like Syria. It was also a facilitator for a global covert war. The information the Saudis started to provide after the U.S. invasion was critical in disrupting al Qaeda operations. And the Saudis did, in fact, pay the price for collaboration: Al Qaeda rose up against the regime, staging its first attack in the kingdom in May 2003, and was repressed.

In this sense, we can see a logical progression. Invading Afghanistan disrupted al Qaeda operations there and forced Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to step up cooperation with the United States. Invading Iraq reshaped Saudi thinking and put the United States in a position to pressure neighboring countries. The two moves together increased U.S. intelligence capabilities decisively and allowed it to disrupt al Qaeda.

But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.

Mission Creep and Crisis

The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.

If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country. When we consider that 300,000 Soviet troops could not subdue Afghanistan, we get a sense of how large a force would have been needed.

The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.

There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- a move that still would have left Afghanistan in its current state, but which would seem to have been better than the situation now at hand. The answer to that question rests on two elements. First, it is simply not clear that the Saudis' appreciation of the situation, prior to March 2003, would have moved them to cooperate, and extensive diplomacy over the subject prior to the invasion had left the Americans reasonably convinced that the Saudis could do more. Advocates of diplomacy would have to answer the question of what more the United States could have done on that score. Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.

But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.

But even without the administration's denial, we can see in hindsight that the current crisis was hardwired into the strategy. If the United States wanted to destroy al Qaeda, it had to do things that would suck it into the current situation -- unless it was enormously skilled and nimble, which it certainly was not. In the end, the primary objective -- defending the homeland -- was won at the cost of trying to achieve goals in Iraq and Afghanistan that cannot be achieved.

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.
Send questions or comments on this article to analysis@stratfor.com.


Was this forwarded to you? Sign up to start receiving your own copy ? it?s always thought-provoking, insightful and free.

Go to https://www.stratfor.com/subscriptions/free-weekly-intelligence-reports.php to register

Be The First to Know with ALERTS on Global Developments and Security Threats
Get three months of Stratfor Premium for ONLY $59

Be the first to know the critical - and often secret - WHAT and WHY of key political, economic and security developments around the world.

Arm yourself with timely intelligence and predictive analysis of international affairs, world events and global security issues shaping the world of today.and tomorrow. You.ll soon realize the difference it makes to have an entire team of analysts working to deliver you information fast and reliably, with analysis that cuts to the chase and focuses on what you really need to know.

Click here to become a Premium member and get unrestricted access to "the shadow CIA" - for only $59/quarter.


Distribution and Reprints
This report may be distributed or republished with attribution to Strategic Forecasting, Inc. at www.stratfor.com. For media requests, partnership opportunities, or commercial distribution or republication, please contact pr@stratfor.com.

 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: John P.
The only valid time for showing muscle, as you put, is when self-defense is clearly needed. What did Iraq ever do to us? The "absolute" and factual answer is nothing. That Hussein was an ass isn't enough, in fact we were bestest buddies with him until until it became idealogically expedient to boot him out. In fact, if being brutal is the criteria for preemptive attack, the US would be fighting most of the world right now. The Bush coven KNEW that the American public wouldn't buy a neocon fantasy, so they lied us into it.

Well, I actually think the main reason we went into Iraq was to get rid of a brutal dictator who supposedly had WMD's and terrorist ties with the end goal of giving Iraq a chance to set up a democratic government to add some stability to an otherwise instable region. There were no real lies (in my book at least) - Bush and company just did a horrible job justifying why we attacked Iraq. They thought the WMD thing would be easy to explain to the average Joe and it just happened to be based on bad intelligence and backfired horribly. I still think he had some stuff and it was shipped to Syria or destroyed, but that's obviously a moot point now. I'll have to dig up the Stratfor article on that subject, explains in much better than I can.....

Again, he was a "brutal dictator" and the US government decided that he was a great friend, regardless of what he was doing, as long the partnership was to our liking. Doesn't that bother you in the slightest, P? Or were you even aware of it? Instability in the Middle East is in great measure the fault of the US. We can even claim the dubious distinction of creating muslin fundamentalism with our constant interference in the internal affairs of just about every country in the area who'll stand still for it. The Shah of Iran is a fine example of this condition.

Install democracy, huh? Show me anywhere in international law the idea that one country can attack and slaughter the government and population of another nation simply because the former doesn't like ther latters form of government, or simply thought it would be a neat idea. Really, were is the legal justification for what we've done. Or are you of a mind that the fed can do anything it wants?

We were lied to, as we've been lied to many times to justify the machinations of the power hungry few. It wasn't "bad intelligence" man, it was a LIE from start to finish. It's just that simple P, no ups no extras, and emotion doesn't play a part in it. Do yourself a favor, try to ween yourself off of that constant diet of imperial propaganda. You seem like a nice guy and you owe yourself a dose of what the real game is about.

 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
I was editing my post and adding the Stratfor article while you were posting.

Or were you even aware of it?
Of course I was, and not it doesn't bother me. Hindsight is 20/20.

Instability in the Middle East is in great measure the fault of the US. We can even claim the dubious distinction of creating muslin fundamentalism with our constant interference in the internal affairs of just about every country in the area who'll stand still for it.

That's a bit of a stretch don't you think?

Install democracy, huh? Show me anywhere in international law the idea that one country can attack and slaughter the government and population of another nation simply because the former doesn't like ther latters form of government, or simply thought it would be a neat idea. Really, were is the legal justification for what we've done. Or are you of a mind that the fed can do anything it wants?

I lean toward with the Stratfor explanation on this topic.

Do yourself a favor, try to ween yourself off of that constant diet of imperial propaganda. You seem like a nice guy and you owe yourself a dose of what the real game is about.

I guess I could say the same to you :)

I gotta go watch some O'Reilly....
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: John P.
I was editing my post and adding the Stratfor article while you were posting.

Or were you even aware of it?
Of course I was, and not it doesn't bother me. Hindsight is 20/20.

Instability in the Middle East is in great measure the fault of the US. We can even claim the dubious distinction of creating muslin fundamentalism with our constant interference in the internal affairs of just about every country in the area who'll stand still for it.

That's a bit of a stretch don't you think?

Install democracy, huh? Show me anywhere in international law the idea that one country can attack and slaughter the government and population of another nation simply because the former doesn't like ther latters form of government, or simply thought it would be a neat idea. Really, were is the legal justification for what we've done. Or are you of a mind that the fed can do anything it wants?

I lean toward with the Stratfor explanation on this topic.

Do yourself a favor, try to ween yourself off of that constant diet of imperial propaganda. You seem like a nice guy and you owe yourself a dose of what the real game is about.

I guess I could say the same to you :)

I gotta go watch some O'Reilly....

"I was preparing to launch my next propaganda torpedo while you were replying!" :D I guess I'll have to take solace in the fact that you're part of an ever shrinking minority, P.

P.S. I hope like hell that you can't vote.

 

John P

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,426
2
0
P.S. I hope like hell that you can't vote.

I can and plan to be in the majority unless the Democratic candidates figure out how to center themselves a bit. Hilary and Obama are already beating each other up pretty good.

Here's to hoping somebody smarter and with a little more pull than us figures all this stuff out. Cheers!!
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: John P.
P.S. I hope like hell that you can't vote.

I can and plan to be in the majority unless the Democratic candidates figure out how to center themselves a bit. Hilary and Obama are already beating each other up pretty good.

Here's to hoping somebody smarter and with a little more pull than us figures all this stuff out. Cheers!!

Lots of people say they vote P, then the turnout is less than 50% of those eligible.

You're missing the point yet again, They've already got it figured out, and nothing is going to change for the positive. Unless, of course, the American people wise up en masse and magically develop a long term memory, and I see no indication of either. Your attitude on this matter is a fine case-in-point.

Cheers to you, sir.