evolucion8
Platinum Member
- Jun 17, 2005
- 2,867
- 3
- 81
NVIDIA's highend is selling more than AMD's lowend.
The arrival of GTX465/460 will only bolster that fact.
But please...run the numbers
What a bad joke, market isn't driven by enthusiasts, its driven by OEM's and mainstream users which aren't willing to spend more than $200 on a card. What nVidia has to counter HD 5700 and below? Nothing. Low end HD 5x00 series are the best for HTC and OEM, best price/performance balance is the HD 57x0 series which nVidia has nothing to counter, and the HD 58x0 series which are more expensive, specially the HD 5870, offers the 90% of the GTX 480 performance while costing $100 less.
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at80eighty
Senior member
- Jun 28, 2004
- 458
- 5
- 81
bryanW1995
Lifer
- May 22, 2007
- 11,144
- 32
- 91
You find me a better sample size of how the market of gamers are currently, then we can talk.
Subtract the +6 months lead, before you make such a claim.
Infact this makes you look untruthfull:
NVIDIA's DX11 marketshare grew with 2.1%
AMD's DX11 markretshare dropped by 2.11%
Lots of people still buying GT200's..and?
Dosn't alter that in DX11, NVIDIA is making a move...on the cost of AMD.
Now we just need 32 bit to die then
Observation:
Some people have a hard time accepting the fact that NVIDIA expanding it DX11 market share...and that the trend has been growing for the last 3 months :hmm:
Wonder what the excuse will be when the GTX465/460 hits?
let me use small numbers to make it easy for you. say that nvidia gtx 470/80 had 1 dx 11 card and amd 58xx series had 40 dx11 cards out. all other dx11 cards from amd/nvidia combined are at 59 total cards sold. this yields the following:
gtx 470/80 = 1
58xx = 40
all others =59
total is 100, right? what happens now if gtx470/80 and 58xx both sell 10 cards each this month and the "all others category" is zero?
gtx 470/80 = 11
58xx =50
all others = 59
gtx 470/80 went from 1/100 = 1% market share to 11/120 = 9.2 % market share. did they sell more cards than 58xx? no. did they increase their market share because they were basically starting from zero? yes. we are several months into the "fermi age" and they're still at 5.8% in the steam survey, while 5800 is only down a few % and 5700+5800 is only down from around 85% to 79%.
Sorry for resorting to complicated mathematical concepts like "fractions" and "division", but I couldn't figure out an easier way to explain it.
bryanW1995
Lifer
- May 22, 2007
- 11,144
- 32
- 91
(shaking head) you lost him at "One" my friend...
edit: crap, sorry guys I should have read the entire post first.
At least this thread makes me feel less bad about the public schools in Texas. They obviously suck in denmark.
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1) Why would I want to find you a better sample of the market of gamers? What do gamers have to do with sales?
Hint: There is zero chance that the HD5800 series is outselling the HD5700 series. There is zero chance that the HD5800 series has sold as many cards as the HD5700 series, yet there it is, equal in marketshare with it. ATI stated back in November IIRC that the HD5700 series had already outsold the HD5800 series, Steam did not and has not reflected this ratio, ever.
IT IS NOT REFLECTIVE OF ACTUAL SALES ON ANY LEVEL.
2) This claim is just ludicrous. Yes, using Steam figures, if they were in any way representative, you could try and argue this claim, but step back and think about it for a second. You really think a high end, >$300 family of cards is outselling cheap <$100 cards?
Maybe amongst gamers, but then... what does that have to do with anything?
I think I'm going to go to CPU and Overclocking and claim that AMD is outselling Intel. Just need to find a particular market that isn't reflective of the overall market first...
(The other parts of your claim I don't care about, I am more focusing on the fact that Steam doesn't reflect actual sales ratios in any way, even from the mid-range up. It's not useful to gauge sales other than maybe among gamers. But even then it's not representative.)
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
So, should I now make a formal request for a forum with this title?
"Video Card Company Enthusiasts"
I mentioned this once before, but most of you guys are off the chain with this stuff and I really believe that the actual graphics card enthusiasts/troubleshooters should be able to enter a forum without having to wade through oceans of company demographics, sales ratings, market share wins and so on. Way back when, nobody cared about this stuff. All they cared about was how a graphics card performs and even why it performs better than another, cost of the card (not what it costs the company to make the card). Anyone disagree? It would just be nice to get back to the roots of graphics card conversation instead of spreadsheets. MHO.
"Video Card Company Enthusiasts"
I mentioned this once before, but most of you guys are off the chain with this stuff and I really believe that the actual graphics card enthusiasts/troubleshooters should be able to enter a forum without having to wade through oceans of company demographics, sales ratings, market share wins and so on. Way back when, nobody cared about this stuff. All they cared about was how a graphics card performs and even why it performs better than another, cost of the card (not what it costs the company to make the card). Anyone disagree? It would just be nice to get back to the roots of graphics card conversation instead of spreadsheets. MHO.
Grooveriding
Diamond Member
- Dec 25, 2008
- 9,147
- 1,330
- 126
If the 470/480 do drop to equal price points with 5850/5870, everyone should be happy about the situation. At an equal price, the 480 is a better buy over a 5870.
The 470 being on parity with the 5850 would afford people an even choice based on brand or feature-set preference.
The 470 being on parity with the 5850 would afford people an even choice based on brand or feature-set preference.
Please don't...
There's 'vendor-specific' subforums at Hardforum, and I don't think they're a good idea.
What you get is a bunch of biased forums, each with their own 'alternate reality', and people actually crying 'off-topic' when you try to compare one company's product to its competitors (which is the only way you can make any assessment about how good or bad, cheap or expensive etc a product is).
It makes discussions completely impossible for enthusiasts who care about the technology rather than the brand.
That I agree with... But in my opinion, the only way to get back to how things were some 10 years ago, is to simply make the forums less accessible to the average internet user.
I think the problem is related to the Eternal September phenomenon... Where the number of new/inexperienced users outnumbered the 'old-timers', and the rules were redefined by the new generation. Like a culture shock.
I think on forums like these, only a small minority is actually an enthusiast in the classical sense.
I mean, why would an enthusiast care about sales numbers? Sales numbers have little to do with the technical merit of a product. The best technology doesn't always become a success in the marketplace, and vice versa.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
I didn't mean to suggest splitting vendor products into sub-forums. I meant to separate those who would like to talk about graphics cards and the technology, performance, price, troubleshooting, and another forum for those who are more interested in the business side of the graphics card companies. Market share, wafer cost, cost to manufacture, anything related to the business machine that so many here are clearly infatuated with. Absolutely none of that should interest anybody when they are looking for a solution to a problem, or considering a new card.
Well, not much has changed when it comes to talking about the cards themselves. Card enthusiasts still want to know what performs better for their needs and what it's going to cost them. Somebody coming in and asking which card to get isn't really interested in what the most popular selling card is because that may not necessarily be the best card, or which one sells best doesn't really indicate what might be best for them. They really want to know what is best for them, no matter what that might be. I don't want to see a steam survey every 12 minutes.
I agree. I remember when I had my Voodoo2. That piece of hardware sold like MAD. Everybody loved that. Then I heard about the Riva TNT and was skeptical, but researched the performance compared to the Voodoo2. Dissected it. Compared triangles per second and any other measurable feature of the two cards. Anyway, you know where I'm going with this. The business demographic truly has no place here in an enthusiast video CARD forum. IMHO.
i'm right there with you keys... I wanna hear about graphics cards not graphics card companys
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dug777
Lifer
- Oct 13, 2004
- 24,778
- 4
- 0
I think you've just got to ignore it, I mean this thread title shouldn't be of interest to anyone who just wanted to know how cards performed or how they were architected or how to solve problems with video cards, so stay out of it and you won't have to wade through all that stuff.
However, marketshare and uptake discussions are entirely relevant and on topic if you read the original post that started this thread.
Complaining about people arguing on topic is certainly not on topic In a nutshell, I think it would be massive overkill to ban people from talking about anything other than performance/raw prices/troubleshooting in here.
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Yes, exactly... The business and economics of chip manufacturing?
Not really what a tech forum is about.
Well, I think the difference is that there are less people interested about performance, and more people interested about sales figures, market share, lawsuits etc. I think I could also describe it as "interested in which brand is 'winning'". So that's where most discussions are heading these days.
Yes... as a matter of fact, you can argue that generally the most interesting technology is the stuff that is not selling well, because it is so new and cutting-edge.
I've been through that lots of times... I think the Commodore Amiga is the best example ever. The IBM PC clones clearly outsold the Amiga, but the technology was a joke. It took about 10 years until the PC world understood things like multimedia and multitasking, things that were a fundamental part of the Amiga platform. In the Windows 95 era, those things suddenly became a big hype in the PC world. Technology that had been around for a LONG time, on platforms that didn't sell anywhere near that well.
Most people just had no idea of the capabilities of the Amiga... perhaps they didn't even know it existed... or they just weren't ready for this new technology yet.
I'm an enthusiast, so I like to keep track of all sorts of new technology, and if possible, I like to buy the hardware at an early stage. For example, I bought a PowerVR card, later I bought a Kyro II card, and I bought an ATi Radeon 8500, when most people didn't think much of ATi, knowing only their lackluster Rage parts (pretty much like how nVidia didn't have much of a reputation in the TNT era, and 3dfx was the go-to brand). Enthusiasts don't look at the reputation of a brand. Results from the past are no guarantee for the future.
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GaiaHunter
Diamond Member
- Jul 13, 2008
- 3,700
- 406
- 126
Considering you are part of a Focus Group does this mean you are a Video Card Company Enthusiast?
Or how does that work? And does the distinction between "Video Card Enthusiast" and "Video Card Company Enthusiast" means that the latter ones are less desirable, maybe fanboys?
Because I disagree with you that Video Card Enthusiasts only need to be interested in Performance and/or new features and should/have to disregard other factors like price/performance, the design of a card on an engineering level, etc.
I also see no problem for people to be able to discuss about the direction companies that do produce the GPUs we are enthusiast about are taking, because these actions will change/define the future of our hobby/enthusiast interest
A second question is one more related to moderation, if I may, why no actions are taken against people that are clearly presenting wrong data.
In the case at hand, the user Lonbjerg, is trying to make a claim and then presenting data to back that data - but it he has been clearly disproved (even if we can consider STEAM survey an appropriate tool to do that, which is highly doubtful as some people pointed, and I wouldn't support people using STEAM to trying to claim anything about GPU sales).
However, it isn't the first time the user Lonbjerg does this using exactly STEAM numbers - http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2083757&highlight= around 2 weeks ago he did just this and he has been disproved then. Want to wager that in some other thread he will bring that up again?
And alas you showed there saying basically the same you did here.
I'm sorry if I'm unable to forget that you are a NVIDIA focus group member and I'm making a judgements based in part on that prejudice, but it seems that when things aren't putting NVIDIA in a good light you will just show up, call everyone a fanboy (even if using a much gentler choice of words) and simply ignore that people were simply reacting to wrong information/FUD.
Again, I'm sorry if this all stems of my prejudices and beliefs that you aren't a neutral party.
But when I see you choosing this course of action, it is much harder to forget your affiliations - and you can bet some other people will have a similar view too.
Why didn't you show up and just said "well Lonbjerg is wrong on this one" or "he is clearly a troll since he keeps insisting on this after been pointed out that steam survey isn't the most reliable source and even doesn't prove his point if we considered it a reliable too" or whatever, including no action, instead of just (or trying to) put everyone on the same bag to make everyone opinion irrelevant (and maybe you aren't trying to do this but it is the impression it gives me).
I apologize for my rant, but I've seen this behaviour a couple of times.
If I understand nVidia's idea behind the focus group correctly, then company enthusiasts is exactly what they DON'T want.
I believe the idea of the focus group is for nVidia to get feedback on their own products, what end users (enthusiasts?) like and don't like.
I don't think that's what he meant, but clearly the two don't mix in discussions.
I don't think he said that you can't discuss these topics AT ALL... but perhaps you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture here... post after post, people are arguing about Steam survey results and sales figures. It has become completely decoupled from the actual products and technologies. It's turned into nothing but statistics and analysis.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
Gaia, it would appear that any "course" of action" I take would be called into question. If I suddenly posted "I think snoopy's doghouse is the coolest thing ever!" I'm sure there are quite a few people, yourself included, would start burning logs in your heads to figure out how what I just posted, benefitted Nvidia. You do realize that I do have my own mind, yes? And of course, my preferences.
I don't have any idea what benefit splitting a forum into video card enthusiasts and video card company enthusiasts would have for nvidia. I was thinking about a benefit to members here who are just plain tired of the "Manchester United" mentality that has become so commonplace around here and has nothing to benefit a video card enthusiast.
I don't have any idea what benefit splitting a forum into video card enthusiasts and video card company enthusiasts would have for nvidia. I was thinking about a benefit to members here who are just plain tired of the "Manchester United" mentality that has become so commonplace around here and has nothing to benefit a video card enthusiast.
I fail to see why this is a surprising development to people. I'd suggest it reflect a generation gap. Advertising trains us to identify with brands, not products or any merits of those products. The germane question is "which brand is better?" and higher sales will provide a validation that says "my brand choice was the right one!"
Given the atrocious spelling of most hard-core brand supporters and their sometimes childish behavior, they are probably younger. The people who just want to discuss technical details, performance, etc. are likely much older and grew up in a different advertising environment.
Given the atrocious spelling of most hard-core brand supporters and their sometimes childish behavior, they are probably younger. The people who just want to discuss technical details, performance, etc. are likely much older and grew up in a different advertising environment.
I look at you as if your opinion is somewhat bought. That may be completely wrong, maybe that's just my bias as seeing you as a Focus Group member. Maybe that comes from years of reading Rollo's marketing bs. But your replies in threads like this don't do a thing to change that, and I don't believe I'm the only one who thinks that.
The thread is about how Nvidia appears to be lowering the prices of their Fermi products. I don't see any problem with us having an intelligent discussion about why they might be doing this. Is it because they have a new product coming (GTX460) and want to clear out their other parts? Is it because Nvidia feels they can put pressure on AMD because they have so much of TSMC's 40nm production on allocation? Is it because Fermi has been somewhat of a flop and they need to move inventory?
I don't see anything wrong with these discussions. Than an Nvidia fanboy comes here, and once again, uses the same flawed arguments and is called on it. Why not warn him instead of trying to have us stop having this type of discussion? There is no way someone would stumble into this thread thinking they'd get help with a driver problem. It's really easy to not click or read past a point where you don't like the direction the discussion is going.
Keys is right in this case. Even though he does have a bias due to his influence/funding/gifts, whatever you want to call it - he is still a person just like the rest of us and not everything he says is influenced by nVidia. So, I will defend him on this point 100%.
dug777
Lifer
- Oct 13, 2004
- 24,778
- 4
- 0
Except that this thread was never about product technical detail, it was intended by the OP to be about pricing and strategies (see the OP).
I suppose it's not a little surprising that we've stayed on topic, but if you didn't want to talk about that, none of you needed to come in here and complain about it and insult those people who seem quite happy to talk about it.
It's not preventing you from starting a 'pure' thread that discusses performance or architecture from a dispassionate technical standpoint (not that I have ever seen one of those in here
), and you would be right to chase people out if they ended up discussing things like have been discussed in this thread.You are not being forced to come into this thread and complain about people discussing something that's clearly strongly related to the topic set up by the OP. That's pretty much the definition of threadcrapping, ironically enough
If you don't like the thread topic, I suggest the appropriate place to complain about it would be forum issues, but as far as I can see, the forum is called 'video cards and graphics', and nothing suggests it should be limited to the specific areas relating to those things that have been raised by Keys in this thread.
My 2c
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
In what instance do you believe I was trying to change your permanent opinion of me? I'll agree with tincart here. I'm not trying to STOP you from saying anything. That's probably just your mind on auto-pilot because it's keysplayr you're typing to. But what tincart said makes a lot of sense. I sense massive generation gap syndrome and it very well may be the exact thing I am complaining/voicing my opinion about.
I don't think the bickering about Steam Survey figures was on-topic though.
Aside from that, I think Keysplayr and myself are not specifically talking about this thread in particular, but about the general trend on this forum (and many others, in my case at least) in recent years.
At least what I'm saying is: "I'm an enthusiast, I want my forums back!"
GaiaHunter
Diamond Member
- Jul 13, 2008
- 3,700
- 406
- 126
I don't believe it is exactly the same thing.
Yes, I agree that is hard, even impossible, to have debates involving feelings that wont go in someone pronouncing their love for A and their hate for B and the others doing it otherwise.
But I don't think this it is the case here.
Someone is claiming something, that can be measured, and presenting data that doesn't prove it.
Sorry but you can't compare it. It would be like saying Manchester United is the best because it won 5x more trophies than all other English teams combined and point to a list that didn't show that - MU can even be the best team but the 5x more trophies is a hoax.
And analogies have their limits - otherwise they wouldn't be analogies but the real situation.
And if someone was starting a thread claiming AMD was selling "this many more cards than NVIDIA based on steam" you bet I would be there, if I saw the thread, saying that STEAM isn't exactly an adequate tool to measure that.
No, I wouldn't be able to show that person error by crunching numbers because the steam data shows an overwhelming advantage to AMD.
But look at what guys said here, like nitromullet, lonyo, brianw1995 and others.
They weren't pimping any company or bashing any company - They were bashing a user that is spreading bad information and manipulating information.
Did anyone nominated us forum keepers of truth? No.
But I don't think that give you the right to imply we are Video Company Enthusiasts and if we drop the fancy wrapping of such designation - fanboys.
Dunno about the others - I resent that.
Probably you do think I'm an AMD fanboy (and Scali there will think the same
wave Scali) - I've only been here since the 4800 series début and since then NVIDIA gave me few reasons to buy their products/ being excited about them according to my wants/needs and even good cards like the GTX 260-216 were only attractive at the wrong time, but you can bet when NVIDIA gets a good card out and I'm in the market, I won't have any problems doing it and telling it is a good card and most likely than not I'll have no major driver problems (I've never did in the past with both companies except something that was more related to not properly clean some drivers).But for example I've my differences with Scali, but while he has his biases (and I like to bash him if he tries to pass his bias as facts without support) he doesn't seem a fanboy troll like this guy Lonbjerg.
Last (and I'm quite late for lunch already) I don't know how/why you accepted moderation status, Keys.
You are on a spot I don't envy because - you are like Ceasar's wife - not only you have to be honest you also have to look honest.
And sometimes it will be hard for you to do so, even if it whatever you say spawns for personal beliefs and not because of your affiliation.
dug777
Lifer
- Oct 13, 2004
- 24,778
- 4
- 0
That was a result of someone trolling with that material (the premise behind the trolling was entirely on topic - marketshare), and there's nothing unusual or strange about people attempting to correct complete nonsense...
Fair enough to the second point, but it's still threadcrapping. Keys is entirely entitled to that view, but it was hardly appropriate to announce like a petulant child in the middle of a thread that you don't like the entire premise of the topic and as such derail it even more so, if possible. There's a place for that, and it's called forum issues.
Personally I think the answer is to leave threads alone that you aren't interested in (clearly like this one), and to encourage on-topic moderation in threads you do like (performance/architecture issues not relating to anything to do with economics or design issues/raw actual prices/troubleshooting as far as I can see
).Live and let live otherwise...
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