FBI apologizes for using chainsaw to go through the door of an innocent woman's apt

[CZroe]

I never understood no knock warrants. They seem to love doing them in the middle of the night. Gee, a startled person who has a weapon in the middle of the night, I wonder what is going to happen. FBI needs to learn two things from this: make sure you are at the correct door... and knock.

The whole point is to catch them off-guard before they can react to reduce chances of violent retaliation or escape. Why do you think morning, afternoon, or "prime-time" would be more appropriate for that goal? A startled and armed violent drug dealer is more likely to react with a violence no matter what time of day. The fact that an innocent person is more likely to shoot when startled at night is irrelevant because it is not made for that scenario, even though it happened here.

 

[WelshBloke]

The whole point is to catch them off-guard before they can react to reduce chances of violent retaliation or escape. Why do you think morning, afternoon, or "prime-time" would be more appropriate for that goal? A startled and armed violent drug dealer is more likely to react with a violence no matter what time of day. The fact that an innocent person is more likely to shoot when startled at night is irrelevant because it is not made for that scenario, even though it happened here.

I dunno, I would have thought even most desperate drug dealers would cave if they see a shit load of swat guys outside.

 

[CZroe]

I dunno, I would have thought even most desperate drug dealers would cave if they see a shit load of swat guys outside.

That's not the image Hollywood gives us. Scarface would have sucked if it ended like that. Then again, there is that whole "What if he survived?" videogame sequel...

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

If they have yet to breach the door(note that chainsaws are not fast, not nearly as fast as a ram) how will they shoot me if they are not inside my home? Do they have heatseaking bullets that go through walls? I gurantee you i will be up and in possesion of my shotgun long before they breech my front door(i live in a apartment with concrete walls and metal doors, good luck breeching a metal door quickly with a chainsaw), so they will be unable to see me lift the gun. Not to mention if i can see them and they can see me i would identify them as police and not fire upon them.

Also i said i would fire a WARNING shot, which if they are police would be followed by them identifying themselves and then i would ask to see identification and a warrent and it would all work out fine. If they did not identify themselves it would then proceed to get ugly.

No do you know what happens.

You sit on your couch watchin porn/cartoons/movies or do whatever you are doing living your peaceful normal boring life like the avg Joe does. I'm not saying you have a boring life just to explain the situation when you are relaxed at home. Suddenly BOOM BOOM 3 seconds later guns sticking through the window and officers inside your home.

Now do you walk around 24/7 with your shotgun at home when you are in a relax state? No. You won't ever reach your shotgun before you will be laying face on the ground handcuffed. Its over in less than 7 to 8 seconds. So its easy to sit behind a PC and contemplate what you would do but when it comes to real life there is no time to react or do anything. Thats why its called tactical insertion. Highly trained FBI SWAT team members with bag loads of experience nailing you.

Other thing is do not blame the officers or the ones doing the insertion. All they get told is that they are going to do a warrant at the address etc etc. They do not know the inside mechanics of what is going on in the case. Their job is to secure the premises as fast as possible without any casualties. The pointing of guns in the face and the drag down to the ground cuffing everyone in the house is procedure and securing it. They do not know if your innocent or if its a bullshit call. All they know is warrant, suspected drug dealers secure the premises.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

The whole point is to catch them off-guard before they can react to reduce chances of violent retaliation or escape. Why do you think morning, afternoon, or "prime-time" would be more appropriate for that goal? A startled and armed violent drug dealer is more likely to react with a violence no matter what time of day. The fact that an innocent person is more likely to shoot when startled at night is irrelevant because it is not made for that scenario, even though it happened here.

No the element of suprise has no time attach to it. Otherwise mr. Drug dealers guards will just cover the entry roads during the night and just phone when they see them coming. So they will hit in the day, night any time. Its hard to have a look out constantly 24/7. Here they come during the day and catch a lot of them. The main thing is to get the doors open as soon as possible cause mr Drug dealer will run rather to get rid of the stash than to fight against the police.

 

[dmcowen674]

FBI apologizes for using chainsaw to go through the door of an innocent woman's apt

Article

Boy this thread has been hanging at the top for quite a while now.

This is normal for the U.S. now.

The old Judicial rule of law that Innocent until proven guilty was flipped around to Guilty Until proven innocent.

Get used to it.

She is lucky to not have been shot and killed on the no knock warrant.

They messed up.

 

[dmcowen674]

I have never actually heard of this happening, though I am sure very likely...any proof/articles that this has ever happened though?

Very common in Atlanta area:

http://boingboing.net/2009/02/24/tearful-atlanta-cops.html

Tearful Atlanta Cops Express Remorse for Shooting 92-Year-Old Kathryn Johnston, Leaving Her To Bleed to Death in Her Own Home While They Planted Drugs in Her Basement, Then Threatening an Informant So He Would Lie To Cover It All Up


The trio of officers was involved in a Nov. 21, 2006, drug raid at the Neal Street home of 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston. She was killed by officers after they used a no-knock warrant — obtained with falsified evidence — to storm into her house in search of drugs an informant had inaccurately told them were inside. Apparently thinking the officers were robbers, Johnston fired a shot through the door. Officers responded with 39 shots, five or six of which struck her.


http://www.ajc.com/printedition/content/printedition/2009/02/05/noknock0205.html

TOP 5 AGENCIES TO OBTAIN NO-KNOCK WARRANTS
Gwinnett County Police Department……..41
Norcross Police Department…………….5
Georgia Bureau of Investigation ……….4
Gwinnett County Sheriff’s Department……4
Snellville Police Department…………..4


TOP 5 CITIES WHERE WARRANTS WERE SERVED
Norcross …………………………..20
Lawrenceville……………………….19
Buford………………………………6
Lilburn …………………………….5
Snellville…………………………..5

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

Boy this thread has been hanging at the top for quite a while now.

This is normal for the U.S. now.

The old Judicial rule of law that Innocent until proven guilty was flipped around to Guilty Until proven innocent.

Get used to it.

She is lucky to not have been shot and killed on the no knock warrant.

They messed up.

If any person tells a police officer they are busy with a shipment and it might disappear soon then he don't need a warrant. Its just a warrant. There is nothing that he has to knock. If he feels that doing it will reduce the chances of a success then he can do it. Drugs you cant knock. They tried that years ago and the success rate was like 1 or 2 percent cause they just hide the stash or get rid of it before the police would be let in.

The ones who messed up was the one applying for the warrant and the statement connecting to it. But unfortunately Police is seen as one rather than the individual. If a individual makes a mistake the whole department image are tainted rather than the individual itself

 

[Rifter]

Its over in less than 7 to 8 seconds.

Now i know there is no need to respond to you, you are obviously trolling and have no idea what a chainsaw is. Its not physically possible to cut down a door in seconds with a chainsaw.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

Now i know there is no need to respond to you, you are obviously trolling and have no idea what a chainsaw is. Its not physically possible to cut down a door in seconds with a chainsaw.

A troll? Did I ask for your life story no?

However - do you think they knocked, then yelled "FBI - stay still while we saw your door down"...........or do you think they fired up a chainsaw and started cutting the door down first.

You ever yell over a chainsaw? Kinda hard to do - if you want another person to hear. And truthfully - if your door is getting cut down at 3 a.m. tomorrow and you by some chance DO hear "FBI"....you gonna just sit there and say "okay".

"I took two steps, face the second door, and I heard the click of a gun, and saying, ‘FBI, get down,' so I laid down on my living room floor," Judy Sanchez said.

You can't see the front door sawed around the panels and kicked in accordian style?
Interestingly, it looks like at that point they reached in, unlocked the door and opened it.

And in the end it was a success.

The federal agents finally realized they had targeted the wrong apartment, and eventually apprehended the suspect, Luis Vasquez, who lived next door to Sanchez.

The FBI released a statement on Tuesday saying in part, "The agent repeatedly apologized for the mistake," and reimbursed her for the damaged door.

But for Sanchez, who now sleeps with a baseball bat next to her bed, it wasn't enough.

"Anytime anybody knocks, my daughter freezes up. A two-year investigation and you still knock down the wrong door? That's crazy," said Sanchez.

Vasquez was arrested and charged.

If convicted, he faces up to 40 years in prison.

She been living next door to a crack dealer and she's worried about sleepless night cause the FBI sawed her door down? She should thank them for removing the crack head next door rather than piss and moan all over the papers

 

[sourceninja]

No do you know what happens.

You sit on your couch watchin porn/cartoons/movies or do whatever you are doing living your peaceful normal boring life like the avg Joe does. I'm not saying you have a boring life just to explain the situation when you are relaxed at home. Suddenly BOOM BOOM 3 seconds later guns sticking through the window and officers inside your home.

Now do you walk around 24/7 with your shotgun at home when you are in a relax state? No. You won't ever reach your shotgun before you will be laying face on the ground handcuffed. Its over in less than 7 to 8 seconds. So its easy to sit behind a PC and contemplate what you would do but when it comes to real life there is no time to react or do anything. Thats why its called tactical insertion. Highly trained FBI SWAT team members with bag loads of experience nailing you.

Other thing is do not blame the officers or the ones doing the insertion. All they get told is that they are going to do a warrant at the address etc etc. They do not know the inside mechanics of what is going on in the case. Their job is to secure the premises as fast as possible without any casualties. The pointing of guns in the face and the drag down to the ground cuffing everyone in the house is procedure and securing it. They do not know if your innocent or if its a bullshit call. All they know is warrant, suspected drug dealers secure the premises.

I put on my 9mm when I get up, I wear it all day. I take it off to sleep. I have a 357 in the drawer by my bed.

 

[Rifter]

A troll? Did I ask for your life story no?

However - do you think they knocked, then yelled "FBI - stay still while we saw your door down"...........or do you think they fired up a chainsaw and started cutting the door down first.

You ever yell over a chainsaw? Kinda hard to do - if you want another person to hear. And truthfully - if your door is getting cut down at 3 a.m. tomorrow and you by some chance DO hear "FBI"....you gonna just sit there and say "okay".

You can't see the front door sawed around the panels and kicked in accordian style?
Interestingly, it looks like at that point they reached in, unlocked the door and opened it.

If you think you can pull of cutting that door down and getting a team of guys inside in 8 seconds you are insane.

And i would hope they would identify themselveves BEFORE firing up the chainsaw, thus not even needing the saw if they get an answer.

Or you know, USE A FUCKING RAM like they should have, where the hell did they even get the chainsaw idea from anyways.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

I put on my 9mm when I get up, I wear it all day. I take it off to sleep. I have a 357 in the drawer by my bed.

.357 is a real stopper but my bet is that you would be cuffed and on the floor before you realized what was going on. The FBI (as well as armed forces, police, homeland security etc) practice and design these entry's surprise and confuse suspects. Even if you happen to be sitting on your couch gun in hand, a handgun isnt going to do much against body armor, riot shields, and 10 man entry team amped up on adrenaline.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

If you think you can pull of cutting that door down and getting a team of guys inside in 8 seconds you are insane.

And i would hope they would identify themselveves BEFORE firing up the chainsaw, thus not even needing the saw if they get an answer.

Or you know, USE A FUCKING RAM like they should have, where the hell did they even get the chainsaw idea from anyways.

That I do agree on. Look at the door. It doesn't look much why the feck did they use a chainsaw? The 8 seconds part I was referring to the usual scenario not the specific one.

Someone had a new toy ( maybe they picked it up at the SWAT convention ) and just had to use it . Either that or the commander watches waay too much Ax Men .

Or macho bet...

swat 1 : I bet I could kick in a door faster than you can chainsaw through it.
swat 2 : no way man...you're on.
swat 1 : ok, we have a warrant here, you take the door across the hall, I'll take this one.

Maybe this could be the reason as well?

I took two steps, face the second door, and I heard the click of a gun, and saying, ‘FBI, get down,' so I laid down on my living room floor," Judy Sanchez said.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I would doubt it was a regular chain saw. Most departments use open ended cut off saws. Just a big ass, open faced spinning blade. Will eat through fences, metal doors, etc.

A real eye opener for sure

 

[BoberFett]

Or we could, ya know, just end the pointless war on drugs...

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

I would doubt it was a regular chain saw. Most departments use open ended cut off saws. Just a big ass, open faced spinning blade. Will eat through fences, metal doors, etc.

A real eye opener for sure

Still the door was cut with one. Look at the door. Battering ram takes about a second to bust it open without too much noise

 

[Brovane]

Or we could, ya know, just end the pointless war on drugs...

If we did that the LE wouldn't get to play commando and go around terrorizing people. That would also mean less money going into LE and less toys for them. We cannot have that.

 

[ultimatebob]

I'm curious... if the tenant heard the chainsaw and shot through the door killing the police officers, does castle doctrine still apply? I mean, if it was truly a "no knock" warrant, the tenant would have had no idea they were police officers.

 

[Brovane]

I'm curious... if the tenant heard the chainsaw and shot through the door killing the police officers, does castle doctrine still apply? I mean, if it was truly a "no knock" warrant, the tenant would have had no idea they were police officers.

Doesn't matter the DA will still prosecute you and the evidence will be twisted around to make it look like you are in the wrong.

Example below. The guy still went to prison. He was lucky he didn't get life.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/verdict-reached-ryan-frederick-trial-details-come-0

 

[Theb]

Doesn't matter the DA will still prosecute you and the evidence will be twisted around to make it look like you are in the wrong.

Example below. The guy still went to prison. He was lucky he didn't get life.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/verdict-reached-ryan-frederick-trial-details-come-0

Wow a cop is dead and some guy's life is ruined, but at least a misdemeanor quantity of marijuana has been removed from the streets. I feel safer.

 

[Brovane]

Wow a cop is dead and some guy's life is ruined, but at least a misdemeanor quantity of marijuana has been removed from the streets. I feel safer.

Yeah a misdmeanor quantity of Marijuana was found. The best part is that the informant that the cops used to get the warrant probably broke into the house several days earlier to get the information for the warrant. The resident was on alert because of the break in several days earlier when the cops came to serve the warrant. However from reading it seems like the informant mistoke the banzai trees that the homeowner grew for Marijuana plants. Big screwup all around for the cops. Use of a shady informant. The cop was a father of 3 and he is now dead and a innocent man just defending his house from what he thought was a break-in got 10-years in jail.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

I'm curious... if the tenant heard the chainsaw and shot through the door killing the police officers, does castle doctrine still apply? I mean, if it was truly a "no knock" warrant, the tenant would have had no idea they were police officers.

She did read it again.

"I took two steps, face the second door, and I heard the click of a gun, and saying, ‘FBI, get down,' so I laid down on my living room floor," Judy Sanchez said.

 

[Jaskalas]

Knocking and announcing MUST be made a law across the nation.

 

[etrigan420]

Or you know, USE A FUCKING RAM like they should have, where the hell did they even get the chainsaw idea from anyways.

Gears of War man...

Surprised you didn't know that.