Fatalities at Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, UK

[Zaap]

Some evidence please?

I've had a quick look through the histories of half the 911 hijackers on Wikipedia and here's what I found:

Mohammed Atta: Came from a reasonably wealthy family. Architecture graduate. At 22 he continued his studies when he met people and formed a cell in Hamburg. In that group he studied how to pilot an aircraft. I'd say he got any money he had from family or al-Qaeda or both, so I'm not seeing strong evidence here of "middle or upper class status", particularly as there's no sign of any career.

Abdulaziz al-Omari: He read shit out at the local church. Yep, I bet he was swimming in cash!

Wail Mohammed al-Shehri: Born into a family with 11 siblings. He was a PE teacher in Saudi. His family rejected anything that resembled modern living (e.g. TV, Internet). Ditto comment about swimming in cash.

Waleed Mohammed al-Shehri: Wail's brother. Also became a teacher. Lived in a poor region of Saudi bordering Yemen. Ditto comment about cash.

Satam Muhammed Abdel Rahman al-Suqami: "May have been a law student in Saudi". Possible roomie might have been training with al-Qaeda.

Marwan al-Shehhi: Like Otta, student in Germany. Friends with Otta. Studied for pilot's licence with him. Military scholarship got him into Germany. Again, no career and no sign that he was middle or upper class.

Fayez Banihammad: Charity worker in Saudi.

Mohand al-Shehri: Former college student who fell behind in studies then joined the fight in Chechnya.

Hamza al-Ghamdi: Another guy who went to fight in Chechnya.

Ahmed al-Ghamdi: Another dropout who went to fight in Chechnya.

- edit - I just looked up all the 7/7 attackers: All of the them had gone through secondary school (ie. mandatory education), one had gone slightly further and picked up a GNVQ. One had an "occasional job at a chip shop". Another was maybe volunteering at an outreach centre that he tried to recruit people through. Most of them were barely 20 years old. Again, I'm not seeing much evidence to support a "middle/upper class" status of living; I'm seeing kids with minimal educations.

This is tedious and time-consuming work, so I'm not planning on going through the remaining attackers, then on to the 7/7 attackers and the various other attacks made by nutters claiming to be inspired by Islam. Since you made the claim, you can do the homework, but so far it looks like you're the one making the BS claims. I'll throw you a bone though - I'm aware of one attempted terrorist attacker who was a qualified doctor who attempted to ram the entrance of Glasgow airport in his car and got stuck on the posts put there for precisely that kind of event.

However, don't get lazy and think that finding one terrorist with a reasonable evidence base of a middle/upper class life proves your point though, or straw-manning your way through this by suggesting that anyone is claiming that no 'Islamic' terrorist has ever been middle/upper class.



Or, how about this for a strange idea - one joins a cell and gets a certain amount of funding from the terrorist organisation! Neither al-Qaeda or ISIS are (or were) what anyone would call "impoverished". AFAIK ISIS are raking in oil money, and Osama Bin Laden had some serious funding connections.

Case in point^

Hint to anyone this soft-skulled- if you catch yourself making LAMEASS excuses for ISIS types- (and being the first knuckhead ANYWHERE that's ever attempted a 'oh the poor dears!' poverty excuse for the fucking 911 hijackers of all flaming assholes!) you've gone beyond the 'don't blame innocent Muslims' line, and you're now deep, deep deep into USEFUL FUCKING IDIOT territory.

Take it to heart dude, cause you just demo'd it!

 

[agent00f]

Case in point^

Hint to anyone this soft-skulled- if you catch yourself making LAMEASS excuses for ISIS types- (and being the first knuckhead ANYWHERE that's ever attempted a 'oh the poor dears!' poverty excuse for the fucking 911 hijackers of all flaming assholes!) you've gone beyond the 'don't blame innocent Muslims' line, and you're now deep, deep deep into USEFUL FUCKING IDIOT territory.

Take it to heart dude, cause you just demo'd it!

Couldn't have asked for a better demonstration of degenerates' cognitive aptitude for any sort of rational discourse. In fairness it's only made worse by libtards' insistence that degenerates can't be that incompetent.

 

[Ichinisan]

Of course my heart goes out to the victims and their families. I should have expressed that earlier, and I'm sorry I didn't.

However, it's hard not to develop that sense of dread knowing that, sooner or later, the "Islam is inherently evil" camp will swoop in and start fantasizing about all the ways they can ban Muslims. It's disgusting, like a wave of nausea you know is about to hit.

Maybe the bigger concern is the one you're trying to dismiss.

 

[agent00f]

Maybe the bigger concern is the one you're trying to dismiss.

Don't forget those rapist mexicans.

 

[mikeymikec]

Case in point^

Hint to anyone this soft-skulled- if you catch yourself making LAMEASS excuses for ISIS types- (and being the first knuckhead ANYWHERE that's ever attempted a 'oh the poor dears!' poverty excuse for the fucking 911 hijackers of all flaming assholes!) you've gone beyond the 'don't blame innocent Muslims' line, and you're now deep, deep deep into USEFUL FUCKING IDIOT territory.

Take it to heart dude, cause you just demo'd it!

What excuse did I make for anyone? You made an assertion that they were all or mostly middle or upper class, I countered it with some evidence.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I didn't realize 9-11 was now considered domestic terrorism...

 

[ch33zw1z]

Or, how about this for a strange idea - one joins a cell and gets a certain amount of funding from the terrorist organisation! Neither al-Qaeda or ISIS are (or were) what anyone would call "impoverished". AFAIK ISIS are raking in oil money, and Osama Bin Laden had some serious funding connections.

These organizations are making enormous amount of income through Opium cultivation.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/02/opium-wars/draper-text/5

It's a huge money maker. Many don't realize it, but we've been fighting a War on Opium since we made it to that area. Huge drain on our funds.

 

[Crumpet]

Terrorists parents were from Libya.

A few years ago we (UK and US) bombed the literal shit out of Libya, and then didn't really make any effort to help clean it up.

I can see why Libyan's might be a bit angry with us.

(note, I think this terrorist attack was despicable, and the whole event horrific, but you don't have to stretch your imagination too far to think that if a country was decimating your hometown, and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to a country known to be funding ISIS who have slayed hundreds of thousands of your kin, you might be quite angry about it.)

 

[soulcougher73]

I didn't realize 9-11 was now considered domestic terrorism...

Always has been to the well informed....

/tinfoilhat

 

[Svnla]

Latest news, 3 more are arrested, UK is locked down under "critical" threat, military personnel, not just cops, are deployed -

Three men have been arrested in connection with the Manchester bomb attack that killed at least 22 people as the official terror threat level was raised to critical – the highest level – by Theresa May.

Soldiers will replace armed police at many sites, freeing them up for patrols in key areas under Operation Temperer, which is being enacted after security experts warned the government that another terrorist attack could be imminent.

It is the first time the most serious rating has been reached for nearly a decade.

The move reflects fears that a “wider group of individuals” may have been involved in the attack – including the bomb-maker who provided Abedi with his deadly device.

Following Monday’s blast, the Government has activated Operation Temperer, providing up to 3,800 troops to support the police in their security operations.



The latest arrests were announced by Greater Manchester Police as:

• France’s interior minister disclosed that Abedi, 22, is believed to have travelled to Syria and claimed he had “proven” links with the so-called Islamic State;
• Home Secretary Amber Rudd confirmed UK security services had been aware of the British-born attacker;
• Military personnel were being deployed to key sites after the official threat assessment was raised to critical, the highest level, indicating that a further attack may be imminent;
• A Polish couple who had gone to the venue to collect their daughters were revealed to be among those killed;
• PR manager Martyn Hett was the latest person to be named as a victim of the atrocity.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/mancheste...l-terror-threat-three-arrested-095419988.html

I am so sad at the picture of the 8 years old girl. <sad panda>. So young to die by religious/hate.

 

[Mayne]

Jihadism is a global threat that needs to be wiped out. How do we get rid of this death cult? I have no clue.

 

[0roo0roo]

Terrorists parents were from Libya.
A few years ago we (UK and US) bombed the literal shit out of Libya, and then didn't really make any effort to help clean it up.
I can see why Libyan's might be a bit angry with us.
(note, I think this terrorist attack was despicable, and the whole event horrific, but you don't have to stretch your imagination too far to think that if a country was decimating your hometown, and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to a country known to be funding ISIS who have slayed hundreds of thousands of your kin, you might be quite angry about it.)

The soft bigotry of no expectations when it comes to muslims. How many vietnamese and cambodians were killed by our bombs? How many committed terror after coming to the US? How many of their children radicalized and turned against their hosts?

There is a trail of blood and rape a mile wide at this point, and people still make excuses, putting on blinders to pretend everything is the same when it clearly has a nature all its own.

Jihadism is a global threat that needs to be wiped out. How do we get rid of this death cult? I have no clue.

You start by not deliberately mass importing it

and start acknowledging the damage it has already done

 

[zinfamous]

I agree.

The people who are committing these attacks are disengaged from the mainstream. Most don't even feel like they belong. France is a perfect example. And, it's only going to get worse.

Instead of talk about how we can solve this issue we will go the other way and put more pressure on those groups who are expected of terrorism. The end result is we will have more people hell bent on harm. It solves nothing.

What makes all of this terrifying is one person can commit so much mayham. The technology has advanced to the point that it can take out large numbers of innocent people. We can't have guards everywhere. Expect more terrorist attacks with large number of dead and injured civilians.

well, yeah. But addressing and fixing people's economic problems and circumstances of birth is like, really hard work. Far easier to just missile them when they get all uppity over resource exploitation in their lands that provides them no economic benefit, and keep wondering why they keep getting angry when we keep dropping bombs on them because of their bombs blowing up our people.

It's far easier to just blow stuff up, plus, there's a massive profit to be made in making new bombs.

 

[Indus]

Asians again?

Utterly inappropriate.

Perknose
Forum Director

Now the time is right for me to comment..

It wasn't asians at all.

 

[WelshBloke]

ISIS has not one problem with detonating bombs in crowds of MUSLIM children, women, whoever.

The majority of their targets are actually other Muslims.

But those Muslims have been made "others" by ISIS. They don't believe the same thing so they are lumped in with the rest of the non believers and heretics.

The whole 'blame ALL Muslims thing' is disingenuous (though very few actually do that) but grossly mischaracterizing ISIS et al is pretty lame. They aren't after Christians so much as they are after any and everyone that doesn't swallow their bullshit, other Muslims chief among them.

The little girls get lumped into that group of "Crusaders" and then it's easy to attack them (if you're a brainwashed psycho).
The other Muslims get lumped in there as well because some are fighting with the "Crusaders" so they can't be "real" Muslims.
They are part of the same group then that's launching missiles into schools in the middle east.

And sorry, there isn't really a large Christian 'moral equivalence' example that paraelles ISIS and the like. Nothing even close. (Nor any other religion for that matter.)

Theres very much a parallel of "othering", pretty much everyone does it if they are in a struggle against another power.

 

[Svnla]

Manchester Police: 'It's very clear that we are dealing with a network' - https://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-attacked-ariana-grande-concert-134212828.html

More attack to come? Stay tuned.

 

[WelshBloke]

It's not that Islam must be responsible, but logically, since the vast majority of such attacks are followers of Islam, it's obvious Islam plays some sort of role.


Correct, 20 years ago, that would be true. It is not currently. Things change over time.



Nobody said it has exclusively Muslim roots, but that's at the root of most terrorism these days, especially in Western (ie, relatively free) countries. Pretending otherwise is naive and delusional.

So go back in time 20 years. You're sitting in a pub in London and the guy at the bar next to you says...

"It's not that Catholicism must be responsible, but logically, since the vast majority of such attacks are Catholic, it's obvious Catholicism plays some sort of role."

Followed up by...
"Nobody said it has exclusively Catholic roots, but that's at the root of most terrorism these days, especially in Western (ie, relatively free) countries. Pretending otherwise is naive and delusional."

Do you nod and agree or go "Eh? The troubles are obviously the result of geopolitical issues rather than religion. Religion just happens to different on each side of this political divide and its an easy way to pick 'teams' but it's certainly not the cause."

 

[soulcougher73]

So go back in time 20 years. You're sitting in a pub in London and the guy at the bar next to you says...

"It's not that Catholicism must be responsible, but logically, since the vast majority of such attacks are Catholic, it's obvious Catholicism plays some sort of role."

Followed up by...
"Nobody said it has exclusively Catholic roots, but that's at the root of most terrorism these days, especially in Western (ie, relatively free) countries. Pretending otherwise is naive and delusional."

Do you nod and agree or go "Eh? The troubles are obviously the result of geopolitical issues rather than religion. Religion just happens to different on each side of this political divide and its an easy way to pick 'teams' but it's certainly not the cause."

That depends. Are the catholics running around blowing stuff up in the name of God and praising it when it happens?

 

[WelshBloke]

That depends. Are the catholics running around blowing stuff up in the name of God and praising it when it happens?

Well I'm sure that there were plenty of cries of "Jesus!", "Thank God for that!", and "For the love of Christ!".

Not sure what that's got to do with anything though.

 

[justoh]

Unsurprisingly, only the conservative media is talking about Islam. This is why the left loses so much. These events and their coverage strengthen the conservative base while also weakening the left. Their frequency will only increase, and the more the left will lose.

 

[UglyCasanova]

well, yeah. But addressing and fixing people's economic problems and circumstances of birth is like, really hard work. Far easier to just missile them when they get all uppity over resource exploitation in their lands that provides them no economic benefit, and keep wondering why they keep getting angry when we keep dropping bombs on them because of their bombs blowing up our people.

It's far easier to just blow stuff up, plus, there's a massive profit to be made in making new bombs.

Military industrial complex is certainly a real and despicable problem here within the US, and I'd say it is very similar to our own form of "jihad". No denying that and it has to be addressed.

Pretending that Islam doesn't have its own inherent problem though does no one any good. How do we fix the problem? Holistic approach across the board. Quit funding every new weapon system that comes along in the name of "defense", quit funding corrupt regimes, cut ties with theocracies, secure our borders, adios Support for Israel unless they abide by a peace solution on our terms (with heavy UN involvement), ramp up overseas aid but make it very conditional, and I'm sure plenty of other options. All must be done, not some.

The whole world has to get its act together. Easier said than done.

 

[Crumpet]

Unsurprisingly, only the conservative media is talking about Islam. This is why the left loses so much. These events and their coverage strengthen the conservative base while also weakening the left. Their frequency will only increase, and the more the left will lose.

Might have something to do with only 1 of the major Newspapers being left wing.

 

[brandonbull]

Jihadism is a global threat that needs to be wiped out. How do we get rid of this death cult? I have no clue.

Step 1. Do not let it or it's followers spread to the rest of the world.
Step 2. Do what is needed to achieve step 1.

 

[Zaap]

But those Muslims have been made "others" by ISIS. They don't believe the same thing so they are lumped in with the rest of the non believers and heretics.

WELL Duh, but that's the whole point.

You *ALMOST* stumbled into the real ugly truth before delving back into the usually false 'parallel' thing.

NONE of this has a thing to do with all the lame 'it's poverty! It's because they are picked on! It's because of the mean ol' bad westerners who won't coddle them and walk on eggshells around them...."

Yeah, that bullshit really explains the above you just cited- that they mostly kill their own kind. HINT: it's not because ISIS types are the victims of anything! They are the VICTIMIZERS of others.

Maybe that will sink in?

Of course not.

Back to wanking on about 'economic injustice!' and "Ohhh the poor dears" and all the other horseshit.

Theres very much a parallel of "othering", pretty much everyone does it if they are in a struggle against another power.

Oh please, here we go. When you can show me any other group routinely blowing up innocent children at concerts, flying planes full of people into buildings, blowing up subways in major cities across Europe, killing SCORES of people of the same religion more than anyone else... then you'll have a legit parallel.

The left just simply becomes babified fools in the face of radical Islam, and makes up lame excuses for it, cowers to it, and dreams up insane 'parallels' "Everybody does it!!! " that don't exist in the real world.

 

[Zaap]

What excuse did I make for anyone? You made an assertion that they were all or mostly middle or upper class, I countered it with some evidence.

You didn't counter a thing I said, you sidestepped everything that was counter to the point, "Well Mohammad Atta was from a wealthy family buuuuuuuut....!" "A guy went to church... POVERTY!"

Meanwhile, back in reality, almost NONE of the attackers actually ever end up fitting your "oh the poor dears" bullshit profiles. You of course didn't address the Boston bombers.

I could name others, the Ft Hood Shooter. The DC Sniper. The San Bernadino shooters. The Orlando nightclub shooter, pretty much NONE of the attackers in France, Belgium, the UK, Germany...

Virtually NONE of them ever turn out to be the victims and "oh the poor poor dears!" your cowardly ilk ever makes up excuses of them as.

And yes, you're the only idiot I've ever seen attempt to mount that lame ass poverty excuse for the 9/11 hijackers! That was a masterpiece of lameness, drawing silly and ridiculous conclusions, and sidestepped everything that was counter to the idiocy of it. Good show!