Fatalities at Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, UK

[agent00f]

The soft bigotry of no expectations when it comes to muslims. How many vietnamese and cambodians were killed by our bombs? How many committed terror after coming to the US? How many of their children radicalized and turned against their hosts?

I suppose that's why asians are the model minority to these folks.

WELL Duh, but that's the whole point.

You *ALMOST* stumbled into the real ugly truth before delving back into the usually false 'parallel' thing.

NONE of this has a thing to do with all the lame 'it's poverty! It's because they are picked on! It's because of the mean ol' bad westerners who won't coddle them and walk on eggshells around them...."

Yeah, that bullshit really explains the above you just cited- that they mostly kill their own kind. HINT: it's not because ISIS types are the victims of anything! They are the VICTIMIZERS of others.

Maybe that will sink in?

Of course not.

Back to wanking on about 'economic injustice!' and "Ohhh the poor dears" and all the other horseshit.



Oh please, here we go. When you can show me any other group routinely blowing up innocent children at concerts, flying planes full of people into buildings, blowing up subways in major cities across Europe, killing SCORES of people of the same religion more than anyone else... then you'll have a legit parallel.

The left just simply becomes babified fools in the face of radical Islam, and makes up lame excuses for it, cowers to it, and dreams up insane 'parallels' "Everybody does it!!! " that don't exist in the real world.

If there were muslim counterparts to all of our right wing killing fanatics I'd imagine the terrorism problem would be much worse for us. Good thing they're not nearly as murderous as your peers.

 

[WelshBloke]

WELL Duh, but that's the whole point.

You *ALMOST* stumbled into the real ugly truth before delving back into the usually false 'parallel' thing.

That "othering" the entire Muslim faith isn't going to help? Is that the ugly truth that you're trying to avoid?

 

[Crumpet]

WELL Duh, but that's the whole point.
Oh please, here we go. When you can show me any other group routinely blowing up innocent children at concerts, flying planes full of people into buildings, blowing up subways in major cities across Europe, killing SCORES of people of the same religion more than anyone else... then you'll have a legit parallel.

The left just simply becomes babified fools in the face of radical Islam, and makes up lame excuses for it, cowers to it, and dreams up insane 'parallels' "Everybody does it!!! " that don't exist in the real world.

Um, radical Christians kill schools full of young people on a regular basis. 'Non radical' Christians shoot, stab, rape and abuse eachother every day across the world.

Catholics put 6 million Jews to their death. (including an awful lot of children)

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Um, radical Christians kill schools full of young people on a regular basis. 'Non radical' Christians shoot, stab, rape and abuse eachother every day across the world.

Catholics put 6 million Jews to their death. (including an awful lot of children)

but they were genociding while white

 

[agent00f]

Um, radical Christians kill schools full of young people on a regular basis. 'Non radical' Christians shoot, stab, rape and abuse eachother every day across the world.

Catholics put 6 million Jews to their death. (including an awful lot of children)

but they were genociding while white

For some perspective, the Hutus in Rwanda were the church-sanctioned group and the Tutsi victims were often accused of being non-christian. This wasn't some ancient history but 1994.

The conservatives have to be careful here whether to cast the blame on the perps' religion or ethnicity, it's a precarious choice at least for the ones who don't want to appear racist.

 

[Victorian Gray]

For some perspective, the Hutus in Rwanda were the church-sanctioned group and the Tutsi victims were often accused of being non-christian. This wasn't some ancient history but 1994.

The conservatives have to be careful here whether to cast the blame on the perps' religion or ethnicity, it's a precarious choice at least for the ones who don't want to appear racist.

Indeed:

"There is a Roman Catholic priest at a medieval church an hour's drive from Paris who has been indicted by a United Nations court for genocide, extermination, murder and rape in Rwanda.

Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka was notorious during the 1994 genocide of 800,000 Tutsis for wearing a gun on his hip and colluding with the Hutu militia that murdered hundreds of people sheltering in his church. A Rwandan court convicted the priest of genocide and sentenced him in absentia to life in prison. The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda spent years trying to bring him to trial."

...

"It's not an isolated case. After the genocide, a network of clergy and church organisations brought priests and nuns with blood on their hands in Rwanda to Europe and sheltered them. They included Father Athanase Seromba who ordered the bulldozing of his church with 2,000 Tutsis inside and had the survivors shot. Catholic monks helped him get to Italy, change his name and become a parish priest in Florence."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rch-apologise-failure-rwanda-genocide-vatican

 

[mikeymikec]

You didn't counter a thing I said, you sidestepped everything that was counter to the point, "Well Mohammad Atta was from a wealthy family buuuuuuuut....!" "A guy went to church... POVERTY!"

Meanwhile, back in reality, almost NONE of the attackers actually ever end up fitting your "oh the poor dears" bullshit profiles.

This is something I've never said or even suggested. I countered your assertion that most of the attackers were middle or upper class. You in response continually resort to insults and straw man arguments. If you want to actually try discussing a point with ME, with points I've actually made, such as countering your assertion that the attackers were mostly middle or upper class, feel free.

You of course didn't address the Boston bombers.

Try reading my original response to you. I went so far and then asked you to back up your assertion. You haven't, surprise surprise, so I'll take it down some more.

Boston Bombers: A pair of brothers, and no evidence whatsoever that they were middle or upper class. The evidence very much suggests the opposite: They come from a family that was forced out of Chechnya by the soviets, both brothers have been on welfare. One got a scholarship. The other brother was 17 when he died. Again, neither even vaguely sounding middle or upper class.

I could name others, the Ft Hood Shooter.

Okeydokey! Congratulations, this guy was a psychiatrist, so probably middle class. Two in total so far, out of how many I've checked? 12x 911 attackers, 4 7/7 attackers, two Boston bombers.

The DC Sniper.

John Allen Muhammad: No evidence of any education, a guy who kidnapped his own children, committed credit card fraud, twice divorced, one ex-wife had a restaining order against him. Again, this does not seem like a guy who has built a career and achieved something that could be described as middle class status, and then turned to terrorism.

Lee Boyd Malvo: 17 when he was killed. No evidence of education or career on wikipedia. Again, no evidence to show middle class status, if that's even possible for someone the age of 17 unless they're an absolute prodigy.

The San Bernadino shooters.

Rizwan Farook: This guy had a degree and actually held a job! I have no idea whether that job was earning more than a pittance, but I'm feeling generous, let's say it was more than a pittance.

Tashfeen Malik: Came from a politically influental family. Uni graduate for pharmacology. Drop-out from some religious academy. No sign of any career. Unless her husband was easily earning enough for both of them then I'd say it was dubious that this couple could qualify as middle class, but what the hell, I'll assume it.

The Orlando nightclub shooter,

Omar Mateen: Security guard. I don't know about you, but AFAIK they're usually paid pretty shit wages.

pretty much NONE of the attackers in France, Belgium, the UK, Germany...

Virtually NONE of them ever turn out to be the victims and "oh the poor poor dears!" your cowardly ilk ever makes up excuses of them as.

Stick to the point, being middle or upper class backgrounds, or concede it. I'd be amazed if you had the grit to actually admit that you were talking out of your ass on that particular point. I'm not trying to drum up any sympathy for people who go on killing sprees. Out of the people I looked up, 21 were not at all likely to be middle or upper class, 4 were (likely enough, and/or me being especially generous).

 

[werepossum]

lol +1

 

[0roo0roo]

Unsurprisingly, only the conservative media is talking about Islam. This is why the left loses so much. These events and their coverage strengthen the conservative base while also weakening the left. Their frequency will only increase, and the more the left will lose.

The left simply fails to take religion seriously anymore at their own peril, they are only ever playing at the next election, while the religions like islam are playing for keeps.

Even far less extreme religions like the amish have been able to maintain parallel separate societies in even america for over a hundred years, and their numbers are far fewer, and their religion far less problematic, the left deludes themselves with their arrogant belief in permanent cultural hegemony, failing to understand the societies they ultimately create are the most unsustainable around. Simply look at the leaders of europe, Macron, Merkel, childless. Hillary, Bernie, barely better at one a piece, Hollywood makes Japan look fertile by comparison.

The left do not know what they are doing, and the costs in loss of freedom are already immense.
As their ideas are no longer defensible, the only resort is mass censorship.

The European Union Wants to Censor Hate Speech on Social Media
http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/23/european-union-prepares-to-force-social

 

[Zaap]

This is something I've never said or even suggested. I countered your assertion that most of the attackers were middle or upper class. You in response continually resort to insults and straw man arguments. If you want to actually try discussing a point with ME, with points I've actually made, such as countering your assertion that the attackers were mostly middle or upper class, feel free.



Try reading my original response to you. I went so far and then asked you to back up your assertion. You haven't, surprise surprise, so I'll take it down some more.

Boston Bombers: A pair of brothers, and no evidence whatsoever that they were middle or upper class. The evidence very much suggests the opposite: They come from a family that was forced out of Chechnya by the soviets, both brothers have been on welfare. One got a scholarship. The other brother was 17 when he died. Again, neither even vaguely sounding middle or upper class.



Okeydokey! Congratulations, this guy was a psychiatrist, so probably middle class. Two in total so far, out of how many I've checked? 12x 911 attackers, 4 7/7 attackers, two Boston bombers.



John Allen Muhammad: No evidence of any education, a guy who kidnapped his own children, committed credit card fraud, twice divorced, one ex-wife had a restaining order against him. Again, this does not seem like a guy who has built a career and achieved something that could be described as middle class status, and then turned to terrorism.

Lee Boyd Malvo: 17 when he was killed. No evidence of education or career on wikipedia. Again, no evidence to show middle class status, if that's even possible for someone the age of 17 unless they're an absolute prodigy.



Rizwan Farook: This guy had a degree and actually held a job! I have no idea whether that job was earning more than a pittance, but I'm feeling generous, let's say it was more than a pittance.

Tashfeen Malik: Came from a politically influental family. Uni graduate for pharmacology. Drop-out from some religious academy. No sign of any career. Unless her husband was easily earning enough for both of them then I'd say it was dubious that this couple could qualify as middle class, but what the hell, I'll assume it.



Omar Mateen: Security guard. I don't know about you, but AFAIK they're usually paid pretty shit wages.



Stick to the point, being middle or upper class backgrounds, or concede it. I'd be amazed if you had the grit to actually admit that you were talking out of your ass on that particular point. I'm not trying to drum up any sympathy for people who go on killing sprees. Out of the people I looked up, 21 were not at all likely to be middle or upper class, 4 were (likely enough, and/or me being especially generous).

LOL! Another masterpeice of sheer BULLSHIT! Seriously dude, that deserves a standing ovation for the absolute insane jumping to conclusions you made, whilst saying absolutely NOTHING!

"The guy had a job... must have been a pittance! "

You just make up shit and delude yourself... of course you're a lefty!

Meanwhile, back in reality... with this current bomber... from the NYT today:

He was a fan of Manchester United, like many in his soccer-obsessed hometown. He smoked pot. He lost a friend to violence last year. He recently dropped out of college. Last month he went to Libya to visit his parents, who had moved back there after two decades in Britain.

Now I'll do your assessment of the above for you:

<leftloon>He smoked pot!!? Liked soccer like the rest of his town?? OUTCAST! Clearly a pauper!

Flew to Libya to visit his parents? Why... no evidence of being middle class! Only poor people fly to other countries to visit people!

Yup! Once again I've deftly proved that all these terrorists are poor and disenfranchised! No evidence to the contrary! Clearly poverty causes people to be radical! Case (and brain) closed!</leftloon>

 

[Zaap]

Um, radical Christians kill schools full of young people on a regular basis.

Oh of course. Happens all the time. Except it doesn't.

'Non radical' Christians shoot, stab, rape and abuse eachother every day across the world.

You can't even stick to the subject. This is about terrorism not everything else dimwits want to toss in grasping for moral equivalence. That you even mount such desparate nonsense is telltale you have no real argument. People kill each other and commit crimes every day... has nothing to do with the actual topic.

Catholics put 6 million Jews to their death. (including an awful lot of children)

Now you went off the deep end. ONLY leftloons buy any such simple-minded 'point' as this nonsense, let alone try to mount it as legit in this argument.

Any other pure tripe you can pull out of your ass trying desperately to defend Islamic terrror? Go on!

What is it about Islamic terrorists that completely 100% hoodwinks the insane left?

 

[1prophet]

Amazing and sad to see those who call themselves fact based and science minded progressive liberals defending their favorite make believe skyfairy religion even to the point of under mining the very secular freedoms they claim that other not so favorite make believe skyfairy religion is always trying to take from them.

 

[0roo0roo]

Oh of course. Happens all the time. Except it doesn't.

The concept of per capita doesn't exist in the lefts thought process anymore. We are at this level of massacres and loss of rights at 1% in america, 5% in the uk.

nothing is hidden, people just choose not to see

The infiltration is deep, and they may hold hands for a while.

but at the end of the day, like in Iran, they will do away with you.

 

[mikeymikec]

LOL! Another masterpeice of sheer BULLSHIT!

Ok, I'm done here. You've accused me of a lot of things in this thread, you even accuse me of saying things I haven't said, but as usual, no evidence to back up your assertion that I took issue with, and a stream of insults.

 

[WelshBloke]

Looks like the British police and intelligence services are really pissed with the Trump administration over leaks.

Manchester attack: Police 'not sharing information with US' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40040210

Which is a shame as an erosion of trust between our intelligence services could have terrible consequences.

 

[disappoint]

If the religious texts are really the root cause, then I have to wonder about many things. For example, Israel has had problems with Muslim terrorists who are Palestinians residing in the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Yet Israel has 1.4 million Arab citizens, almost all of whom are Muslim, and they have no trouble with them. Why? Aren't they reading the same Koran as the ones who live on the other side of the border?

Similarly, why do opinion polls show Arab Muslims being more favorable to terrorism than European Muslims, who are in turn more favorable to it than American Muslims?

Also, why did Christians kill so many people in the name of their religion throughout such a large swath of history? Why have they become more peaceful over the past few hundred years?

If the religious texts matter so much, you'd expect more consistency among various sub-group and factions within a religion, and you'd also expect the religions with more peaceful scriptures to always be less violent than the ones with more violent scriptures, and for people of any given religion to have relatively consistent behavior over time because after all, their scriptures do not change.

This equation of bad religious text = bad behavior is grossly over-simplified. Life experiences (i.e, cultural influences) + biological predispositions (for example, aggression and sociopathy) are far more determinative of behavior than the content of religious books, no matter how important people say they are. People pick and choose from religious texts to justify whatever violent or peaceful behavior that they are otherwise predisposed toward.

There are clearly problems in the Muslim world which are causing this terrorist activity of late, but the religious texts are likely not the main factor.

I'm going to first start off with you're right it's an oversimplification that the texts are only to blame. The texts are merely a tool and the original source. This is a very complex issue due to the fact that the human mind is complex. There are no simple solutions nor answers but that doesn't mean there are no answers nor does it mean there are no solutions. The answer to your question will be multifaceted because not everyone thinks the same way. There are multiple ways in which people decide to do what they do. On to the answer to your question:

They are influenced by different religious leaders than their more violent brethren. Some religious leaders use religion as a tool to get people to do what they want. What they want varies from person to person and religion to religion. Some want peace, others want power, revenge, money or something else. Some may want to just destroy every other way of thinking because they truly believe if everyone was just more like them the world would be a better place.

While they do read the same text they likely don't believe in the violent portions of it or regard those parts as not applying to them. If they do believe the violent portions of the text then it may simply be their willpower overpowering their emotional side stopping them from committing violence because of the consequences to their actions.

You might say consequences wouldn't matter to someone that thinks they will be rewarded in the afterlife until you realize that it's possible their religious leaders have influenced them (non-violent Muslims) to regard spreading the gospel of Islam as more important than killing people for whatever reason their text gives and they realize they can't help spread Islam if they are dead. They know due to law enforcement they will likely die or be imprisoned unable to spread their religion effectively if they engage in violent behavior.

Another possibility is that they regard the job of violence in the name of their religion to be up to some other Muslims that are more capable than they are of being successful at it.

Yet another is that the love they have for their children and families is greater than their will to commit violent acts despite believing everything in their text as being from a flawless source. They might be worried what will happen to their families without them around.

This is only barely scratching the surface of the complexity of the cause of what makes people decide to do what they do. Feel free to add more possible reasons why someone would choose to be non-violent despite their belief in violent teachings.

 

[disappoint]

And this is why we can't have nice threads.

What did you mean by that? I think the ultimate sign of empathy is the desire to find the cause and solution to a problem that causes the death of innocent lives to prevent this kind of tragedy from happening again. The "I'm so sorry this happened, my thoughts and prayers go out to..." is probably a lot more selfish at best and downright disingenuous at worst. Certainly useless at prevention of repeat occurrence. While in some cases it may come from a source of true empathy from a simplistic point of view, in other cases it's more a matter of 'Look what a much better person I am than those evil doers...' rather than "Let's discuss this rationally and do something positive so no one has to go through something like this ever again someday."

 

[Crumpet]

Well, in my simple opinion, lets stop interfering in the Middle East, and Syria, and Libya, and everywhere else we've stuck our filthy noses, let these people go about their business.

And as far as the few lunatics in our midst, round them up, interview them, and anyone you have evidence of being an extremist put in a high security prison with a council of Muslim elders and see if they can be educated about their ways. There's no point deporting them because they'll just slaughter innocent people (including Muslims) in other countries.

 

[disappoint]

But is isn't really you because you can be on the left or right and not want to kill- Just like those who ascribe to some religion or spirituality.

This is a human trait, to delight in the suffering and death of others. The best of us suppress that nature and call it wrong and do not practice it.

It's not a matter of suppression in a lot of people. I for example do not desire to witness the suffering and death of others. Not even the perpetrators of atrocities. I don't need to suppress something that isn't there in the first place. What I desire is for the perpetrators to be stopped not tortured because that isn't a solution and not a deterrent. If the only way to stop them is their death then I would regard it as an unfortunate or tragic necessity to save the lives of their potential victims.

There are human traits that are common among most if not all humans, and that is the one of self preservation. They just don't always get it right on how to achieve that goal due to the inherent flaws of the human mind.

The solution is to seek knowledge and remedies for those flaws. If you don't believe they can be remedied someday you'd be akin to those that called the Wright brothers stupid and crazy to attempt to fly and that they should just leave flying to the birds.

 

[Ackmed]

So the pushed narrative of the "lone wolf" attack is proven wrong again it appears? Imagine that.

This case seems to have hit every warning sign out there that it could have. His own mother reported him. Friends reported him. He was known among government agencies. Traveled days before. Yet it still happened. Seems something needs to change.

Incredibly sad for the families. Grande said she'd pay for all the funerals? Thats pretty awesome if true. No matter the issues I have with her, thats a great thing to do.

 

[Svnla]

Look like the male members of this family are into destruction, killing of the innocents/little girls/defenseless people, and mayhem.

On Tuesday, Abedi's brother, 23-year-old Ismail Abedi, was arrested in Chorlton, in south Manchester, in connection with the attack. His younger brother, Hashem Abedi was arrested by Libya's counterterrorism unit for allegedly "planning to stage an attack" in Tripoli, Libya, where his father Ramadan Abedi was also detained, according to the Washington Post.

Family members that kill together, stay together, eh?

How many more of those are out there and waiting to strike? Stay tuned.

 

[Roflmouth]

Um, radical Christians kill schools full of young people on a regular basis.

No they don't. Better luck lying next time.

 

[agent00f]

Amazing and sad to see those who call themselves fact based and science minded progressive liberals defending their favorite make believe skyfairy religion even to the point of under mining the very secular freedoms they claim that other not so favorite make believe skyfairy religion is always trying to take from them.

So the pushed narrative of the "lone wolf" attack is proven wrong again it appears? Imagine that.

This case seems to have hit every warning sign out there that it could have. His own mother reported him. Friends reported him. He was known among government agencies. Traveled days before. Yet it still happened. Seems something needs to change.

Incredibly sad for the families. Grande said she'd pay for all the funerals? Thats pretty awesome if true. No matter the issues I have with her, thats a great thing to do.

I'm genuinely curious how it must be like to always be on the same side of issues as svnla/roflmouth/zaap sorts. Hard to imagine it provides much satisfaction, but I'll let you guys explain what the upside is.

Ok, I'm done here. You've accused me of a lot of things in this thread, you even accuse me of saying things I haven't said, but as usual, no evidence to back up your assertion that I took issue with, and a stream of insults.

I hope you've learned a lesson from this.

 

[pauldun170]

Victims of the attack.
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/05/world/manchester-terror-attack-victims/

 

[disappoint]

It's not that Islam must be responsible, but logically, since the vast majority of such attacks are followers of Islam, it's obvious Islam plays some sort of role.

Nobody said it has exclusively Muslim roots, but that's at the root of most terrorism these days, especially in Western (ie, relatively free) countries. Pretending otherwise is naive and delusional.

I'm reminded of a quote from the book The Gulag Archipelago:

"Macbeth's self-justifications were feeble – and his conscience devoured him. Yes, even Iago was a little lamb, too. The imagination and spiritual strength of Shakespeare's evildoers stopped short at a dozen corpses. Because they had no ideology. Ideology – that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes.... That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis, by race; and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations.... Without evildoers there would have been no Archipelago."

— Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Chapter 4, p. 173