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Far Cry2 Cat 8.10 HotFix render errors

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apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
0
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BFG10K
The second set of images definitely have rocks missing in one of them and that's potentially an issue. BUT he's also renamed the executable so it's a totally different ball-game now.

Both IHVs rely on application stings these days and both drivers can break if executables are renamed so he really hasn't proved anything.
the FC2 hotfix is screwed up; raw frame rates DO increase but 4870 still lurches from frame to frame in some really bad situations; i would hate to play with a 4870-1GB - even though it *should* be playable - UNLIKE either 4870x2 [CF-X3] or 280GTX which are smooth.

period

no renamed anything; i just used Rollo's save and had to re-save as an in-game cell phone conversation started too quickly for me to take a series of shots :p

i *hope* this Hotfix driver is not the basis for Cat 8-11 and FC2. it is getting immediately UNinstalled
:Q

--full report to follow; i am working on the graphs and posting the IQ comparisons, right now - a dozen shots will prove it for all of you


 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: BFG10K
The second set of images definitely have rocks missing in one of them and that's potentially an issue. BUT he's also renamed the executable so it's a totally different ball-game now.

Both IHVs rely on application stings these days and both drivers can break if executables are renamed so he really hasn't proved anything.
ORLY?

If the 8.10hotfix driver method of rendering (missing rocks, transparent rocks) is correct, why do NVIDIA cards render it the same as ATi when the executable is re-named?

By "accident" NVIDIA's method of rendering is the same as ATi's with the executable renamed or the 8.9 drivers? Uh huh.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
0
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: nRollo
Originally posted by: BFG10K
The second set of images definitely have rocks missing in one of them and that's potentially an issue. BUT he's also renamed the executable so it's a totally different ball-game now.

Both IHVs rely on application stings these days and both drivers can break if executables are renamed so he really hasn't proved anything.
ORLY?

If the 8.10hotfix driver method of rendering (missing rocks, transparent rocks) is correct, why do NVIDIA cards render it the same as ATi when the executable is re-named?

By "accident" NVIDIA's method of rendering is the same as ATi's with the executable renamed or the 8.9 drivers? Uh huh.
well, i would never use the 8-9s for a brand new game when 8-10s work OK
-and now that i tested it, [absolutely positively] not the Hotfix drivers either.

you will soon see for yourself .. watch for an email link
- whatever 'soon' means .. i am pretty slow
 

450R

Senior member
Feb 22, 2005
319
0
0
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
So none of you saw anything missing. And now that you do see, because you can't not see it, what will you all say now? Will you all attack the poster...... Again? Or will you all talk about the subject. Stay Tuned folks. I'm damn curious to know.

Could be a driver bug. Could be an optimization. Lets see if Apoppin can duplicate this.
I called it a conflict of interest. Is that attacking a poster? Please clarify, because in my book it's an undisputable fact considering who nRollo is, who he works for and what this thread is about.

Furthermore, if you read my post you'll see that I did say there was a difference but that it wasn't enough to call it a 'render error'. I see nRollo has removed the original images so perhaps you didn't see the same set of images we were posting about. These aren't even close to the same images. For the record, yes - there is a noticeable difference in these images.

Curiousity satisfied?
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
21,824
838
126
Originally posted by: nRollo

If the 8.10hotfix driver method of rendering (missing rocks, transparent rocks) is correct, why do NVIDIA cards render it the same as ATi when the executable is re-named?
That depends on a lot of things. What nVidia driver were you using? Why aren't your images labeled properly?

And why isn?t the GTX280 image labeled ?FartCry? given you claimed to have renamed the executable on your GTX280? I assume these are Fraps captures and it?s a fact that Fraps automatically tags the screenshot with the executable?s name, which would therefore mean you were lying when you claimed you ran ?FartCry? on your nVidia board.

Again I'll ask, where is this coming from? Have you been instructed by someone to post this?

I mean you have a GTX280 SLI and what, yesterday you suddenly had an urge to swap them for your 4850 and compare the 8.9 and 8.10 drivers and the application just happened to be Far Cry 2?

Your 4850 isn?t even listed in your sig so where did it come from? Do you even have a 4850 or are you getting your images from nVidia?

The fact is your credibility on this issue is zero until a competent and unbiased source confirms it.
 

footballrunner800

Senior member
Jan 28, 2008
504
1
81
Originally posted by: BFG10K
Originally posted by: nRollo

If the 8.10hotfix driver method of rendering (missing rocks, transparent rocks) is correct, why do NVIDIA cards render it the same as ATi when the executable is re-named?
That depends on a lot of things. What nVidia driver were you using? Why aren't your images labeled properly?

And why isn?t the GTX280 image labeled ?FartCry? given you claimed to have renamed the executable on your GTX280? I assume these are Fraps captures and it?s a fact that Fraps automatically tags the screenshot with the executable?s name, which would therefore mean you were lying when you claimed you ran ?FartCry? on your nVidia board.

Again I'll ask, where is this coming from? Have you been instructed by someone to post this?

I mean you have a GTX280 SLI and what, yesterday you suddenly had an urge to swap them for your 4850 and compare the 8.9 and 8.10 drivers and the application just happened to be Far Cry 2?

Your 4850 isn?t even listed in your sig so where did it come from? Do you even have a 4850 or are you getting your images from nVidia?

The fact is your credibility on this issue is zero until a competent and unbiased source confirms it.
Right on
 

SSChevy2001

Senior member
Jul 9, 2008
774
0
0
Originally posted by: thilan29
Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
Well nRollo is complaining about the 1st picture, which is from 8.10 hotfix or at least he says. These are his original posted pictures. Yes I saved them. :)

8.9
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8896/89rocksqi1.jpg

8.10
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6731/810rocksof9.jpg

Clearly you can see the problem with the 8.9 picture.

Overall I'm still having a hard time understanding this thread. ATi mostly fixed 4870x2 DX9 performance with this hotfix. It did hardly nothing for the single 4870 performance.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/...otFix_BB2_1680_DX9.PNG
Yeah in those pics I definitely see a difference and to me the 8.10s look better there. What about in the newer pics? Which one is 8.9 and which is 8.10? I personally think the 1st pic looks better than the last 2.
There is no 8.9 in the new pictures, at least not that I'm aware of. I would have to agree the 1st pictures does look better, even if it's not proper.

Still the main point is the rocks are being rendered, even if the texture is wrong. Even benchmarks don't show any change in performance for single cards.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/...tFix_BB2_1920_DX10.PNG

AMD clearly stated that the hotfix hasn't fully been tested yet, so I really don't see the point in continuing this thread until 8.11 is released.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,260
1,095
126
Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
There is no 8.9 in the new pictures, at least not that I'm aware of. I would have to agree the 1st pictures does look better, even if it's not proper.

Still the main point is the rocks are being rendered, even if the texture is wrong. Even benchmarks don't show any change in performance for single cards.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/...tFix_BB2_1920_DX10.PNG
Hey your link doesn't work...says "no deep linking".
 

dug777

Lifer
Oct 13, 2004
24,778
3
0
Originally posted by: BFG10K
Originally posted by: nRollo

If the 8.10hotfix driver method of rendering (missing rocks, transparent rocks) is correct, why do NVIDIA cards render it the same as ATi when the executable is re-named?
That depends on a lot of things. What nVidia driver were you using? Why aren't your images labeled properly?

And why isn?t the GTX280 image labeled ?FartCry? given you claimed to have renamed the executable on your GTX280? I assume these are Fraps captures and it?s a fact that Fraps automatically tags the screenshot with the executable?s name, which would therefore mean you were lying when you claimed you ran ?FartCry? on your nVidia board.

Again I'll ask, where is this coming from? Have you been instructed by someone to post this?

I mean you have a GTX280 SLI and what, yesterday you suddenly had an urge to swap them for your 4850 and compare the 8.9 and 8.10 drivers and the application just happened to be Far Cry 2?

Your 4850 isn?t even listed in your sig so where did it come from? Do you even have a 4850 or are you getting your images from nVidia?

The fact is your credibility on this issue is zero until a competent and unbiased source confirms it.
 

YBS1

Golden Member
May 14, 2000
1,931
111
106
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
YBS1
tuteja1986
450R
clandren
RIFLEMAN007
BFG10K
Quiksilver
MarcVenice
nismotigerwvu
vj8usa

So none of you saw anything missing. And now that you do see, because you can't not see it, what will you all say now? Will you all attack the poster...... Again? Or will you all talk about the subject. Stay Tuned folks. I'm damn curious to know.

Could be a driver bug. Could be an optimization. Lets see if Apoppin can duplicate this.
Look, this thread backfired on nRollo straight from the beginning. After realizing his error he pulled the original screens and replaced them with ones that better suited his agenda. No one who "attacked" him said anything one way or the other about which screens were rendered more "accurately", just which looked more appealing to the eye, and the opinion was overwhelming.

Anyone who has been around here for a long time knows nRollo has an agenda, and has had for years (long before the required warning tag in the sig), and quite frankly you're almost as bad keys. Hell, I don't even have to read the arguments anymore to know that if you, nRollo and BFG10K are all going at it, BFG is probably right. Bad thing is even if/when nRollo is in the right, no one will really care because he's spent so much time spreading biased FUD.
 

SSChevy2001

Senior member
Jul 9, 2008
774
0
0
Originally posted by: thilan29
Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
There is no 8.9 in the new pictures, at least not that I'm aware of. I would have to agree the 1st pictures does look better, even if it's not proper.

Still the main point is the rocks are being rendered, even if the texture is wrong. Even benchmarks don't show any change in performance for single cards.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/...tFix_BB2_1920_DX10.PNG
Hey your link doesn't work...says "no deep linking".
Try this link
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/..._im_Ueberblick/?page=2
 

error8

Diamond Member
Nov 28, 2007
3,204
0
76
There is only one conclusion that can be taken out of this thread, or at least this is what nRollo wanted to point out: ATI sucks and Nvidia rulez. Don't you ever buy an ATI card from now on, because there are some "rock problems" in FarCry 2. Just buy an Nvidia card and that's it.

Really,now, if this thread was started by an unbiased person, it would have more credibility, but coming from an Nvidia payed employee, it just looks more like "let's sabotage the competition somehow".
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,260
1,095
126
Have you tested yet Apoppin?

If this IS BS then I think this thread should be locked or the thread title changed for accuracy.
 

450R

Senior member
Feb 22, 2005
319
0
0
Originally posted by: error8
Really,now, if this thread was started by an unbiased person, it would have more credibility, but coming from an Nvidia payed employee, it just looks more like "let's sabotage the competition somehow".
Exactly.
 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
Originally posted by: thilan29
Have you tested yet Apoppin?

If this IS BS then I think this thread should be locked or the thread title changed for accuracy.
Obviously the thread doesn't need to be locked or the title changed, then:

Originally posted by: Apoppin
the FC2 hotfix is screwed up; raw frame rates DO increase but 4870 still lurches from frame to frame in some really bad situations; i would hate to play with a 4870-1GB - even though it *should* be playable - UNLIKE either 4870x2 [CF-X3] or 280GTX which are smooth.

period

no renamed anything; i just used Rollo's save and had to re-save as an in-game cell phone conversation started too quickly for me to take a series of shots

i *hope* this Hotfix driver is not the basis for Cat 8-11 and FC2. it is getting immediately UNinstalled
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
21,824
838
126
Originally posted by: myocardia

Obviously the thread doesn't need to be locked or the title changed, then:
I don't see anything in there about image quality being confirmed, only performance issues, but that was never under debate.

Furthermore nRollo renamed the executable while Apoppin did not.

True proof would be the stock executable name used on both nVidia and ATi and each vendor having two screenshots, one before their respective hot-fix and one after. Once you have that you?re justified in blaming any driver that shows less work being done in its respective screenshot.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: BFG10K
Originally posted by: nRollo

If the 8.10hotfix driver method of rendering (missing rocks, transparent rocks) is correct, why do NVIDIA cards render it the same as ATi when the executable is re-named?
That depends on a lot of things. What nVidia driver were you using? Why aren't your images labeled properly?
My images are "properly labelled"- the first is the ATi 8.10 DX10.1 Hotfix driver (where you can see the rocks not being rendered), the second is the same drivers with the executable renamed FartCry2, the third has GTX280 inserted into the jpg name. It's pretty clear, when you throw in the explanations I've posted.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
And why isn?t the GTX280 image labeled ?FartCry? given you claimed to have renamed the executable on your GTX280? I assume these are Fraps captures and it?s a fact that Fraps automatically tags the screenshot with the executable?s name, which would therefore mean you were lying when you claimed you ran ?FartCry? on your nVidia board.
I never claimed I ran FartCry on my NVIDIA board, I didn't need to. The NVIDIA board rendered the game correctly with the executable named as it comes from the box.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Again I'll ask, where is this coming from? Have you been instructed by someone to post this?
What does that matter? If my decision to investigate this comes from curiosity, a tip from George W Bush, or the ghost of Winston Churchill is irrelevant. If you would like my save game to verify yourself, PM me your email and I'll send it to you like I did Apoppin.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
I mean you have a GTX280 SLI and what, yesterday you suddenly had an urge to swap them for your 4850 and compare the 8.9 and 8.10 drivers and the application just happened to be Far Cry 2?

Your 4850 isn?t even listed in your sig so where did it come from? Do you even have a 4850 or are you getting your images from nVidia?
My VisionTek HD4850 comes from Best Buy, my copy of Far Cry2 comes from WalMart. My images are FRAPS screenshots taken with my retail HD4850 and reference GTX280, I'd be happy to post pictures of the cards, receipt for HD4850 and game.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
The fact is your credibility on this issue is zero until a competent and unbiased source confirms it.
Do you consider yourself "competent and unbiased"? If so, PM me your email address, I'll email you my save game, and you can verify. I believe you have a HD4850, and if you're going to question my results, you should be willing to buy the game. Apoppin has my save game, and should be able to verify my results.

Anyone else here with an ATi 4800 series card who would like to see for themselves, please PM me your email address and I'll send you my save game. You can run the game with the hotfix, then with the renamed executable to see the difference.


One of two things is true:

ATi got over aggressive with their optomizations for this game and put out a driver that doesn't render the whole scene.

Or

ATi has a bug in a driver for a new game they will likely fix with an upcoming WHQL version of the driver.

Either way I don't see any reason for the tone of your response, this is the "video forum", noting problems with video drivers backed by evidence is "on topic" and should only be welcomed here.

Again, I put out an open invitation: I will email my save game to any board member who doubts the validity of this, you can see for yourself.

 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: YBS1
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
YBS1
tuteja1986
450R
clandren
RIFLEMAN007
BFG10K
Quiksilver
MarcVenice
nismotigerwvu
vj8usa

So none of you saw anything missing. And now that you do see, because you can't not see it, what will you all say now? Will you all attack the poster...... Again? Or will you all talk about the subject. Stay Tuned folks. I'm damn curious to know.

Could be a driver bug. Could be an optimization. Lets see if Apoppin can duplicate this.
Look, this thread backfired on nRollo straight from the beginning. After realizing his error he pulled the original screens and replaced them with ones that better suited his agenda. No one who "attacked" him said anything one way or the other about which screens were rendered more "accurately", just which looked more appealing to the eye, and the opinion was overwhelming.

Anyone who has been around here for a long time knows nRollo has an agenda, and has had for years (long before the required warning tag in the sig), and quite frankly you're almost as bad keys. Hell, I don't even have to read the arguments anymore to know that if you, nRollo and BFG10K are all going at it, BFG is probably right. Bad thing is even if/when nRollo is in the right, no one will really care because he's spent so much time spreading biased FUD.
The problem with all this is:

1. As usual, my information is accurate and verifiable, not FUD

2. I'm offering my save game to you and anyone else who wants to see this for themself. Put it in your save games directory, run the game with the hot fix and without, you'll see what I'm talking about.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
21,824
838
126
Originally posted by: nRollo

My images are "properly labelled"-
FartCry22008-10-2511-57-42-97.jpg, FarCry22008-10-2512-00-59-58.jpg: tells you nothing about what GPU or GPU driver was used.

FarCry2GTX2802008-10-2513-47-58-96.jpg: a little better but still tells you nothing about what nVidia driver is used.

For all we know the image you refer to as the one with the ATi hot-fix could actually be the one without, and vice versa.

I never claimed I ran FartCry on my NVIDIA board, I didn't need to.
Maybe not directly, but you implied it several times.

And actually if you?re going to rename the ATi executable to show a difference in IQ you need to do the same with nVidia.

Do you consider yourself "competent and unbiased"? If so, PM me your email address, I'll email you my save game, and you can verify.
Oh I'd absolutely love to but I don't have the necessary tools at this time to check for myself. Namely I don't have Far Cry 2 or an nVidia board.

I believe you have a HD4850, and if you're going to question my results, you should be willing to buy the game.
:roll:

Nice try, but I don?t have to ?buy? anything to demonstrate your evidence is flawed.

One of two things is true:

ATi got over aggressive with their optomizations for this game and put out a driver that doesn't render the whole scene.

Or

ATi has a bug in a driver for a new game they will likely fix with an upcoming WHQL version of the driver.
That may well turn out to be the case, but the evidence you have provided thus-far can?t be used to infer that.
 

SSChevy2001

Senior member
Jul 9, 2008
774
0
0
@myocardia

The OP implies that ATi's hotfix degrades IQ to increase speed. I already posted a link that clearly shows there's no increase in peformance with a single 4870.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/..._im_Ueberblick/?page=2

The Radeon HD 4870 with both drivers achieved an identical result
That said did the OP do any benchmarks to compare speeds before and after?
Also the pictures that the OP used aren't even from the benchmark utilities.

There's no proof that ATi used this one example of a rendering problem to increase speed, which is why this thread should be closed.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
@myocardia

The OP implies that ATi's hotfix degrades IQ to increase speed. I already posted a link that clearly shows there's no increase in peformance with a single 4870.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/..._im_Ueberblick/?page=2

The Radeon HD 4870 with both drivers achieved an identical result
That said did the OP do any benchmarks to compare speeds before and after?
Also the pictures that the OP used aren't even from the benchmark utilities.

There's no proof that ATi used this one example of a rendering problem to increase speed, which is why this thread should be closed.
Perhaps Apoppin/someone else can provide us with CF benches?

In any case, here's the hardware:
Oh ye of little faith

BFG- what would the point be in running the game with a renamed executable on NVIDIA hardware? Are you trying to say ATi's driver renders it correctly with optomizations, incorrectly without, but NVIDIA's driver renders it incorrectly with optomizations, but might render it like ATi's optomized correct version without? LOL- what are the odds of that?!

 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,260
1,095
126
Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
That said did the OP do any benchmarks to compare speeds before and after?
Also the pictures that the OP used aren't even from the benchmark utilities.

There's no proof that ATi used this one example of a rendering problem to increase speed, which is why this thread should be closed.
Good point. nRollo would you be able to do that?
 

IlllI

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2002
4,922
9
81
Originally posted by: error8
There is only one conclusion that can be taken out of this thread, or at least this is what nRollo wanted to point out: ATI sucks and Nvidia rulez. Don't you ever buy an ATI card from now on, because there are some "rock problems" in FarCry 2. Just buy an Nvidia card and that's it..
hey, what a coincidence Text


 

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
5,664
0
0
Jeez keys, you on your high horse again? I didn't attack nrollo, I didn't even mention his name. I only stated I liked the screenshots which he supposedly took with 8.10 better then the ones with 8.9 ... Now, where's your apology ?

I actually think 8.10 does render the rocks correctly, but lets them fade out, in the first screenshots, the ones nrollo removed, it looked better to me. In the second batch of screenshots it doesn't look as good because it doesn't make sense ...
 

error8

Diamond Member
Nov 28, 2007
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: MarcVenice

I actually think 8.10 does render the rocks correctly, but lets them fade out,
Yeah, the rocks are transparent and this doesn't seem like it can improve performance, because the rocks are still there and still rendered by the videocard. If they we're totally absent, then that could mean a video "optimization" to improve performance. It smells more like a driver bug or maybe ATI just wants the rocks to look like that!?
 

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