EVGA: "DX11 done right, Nsist on nVidia"

[Scali]

So... the technology is there, nobody uses it though (for whatever reason).

The technology isn't there, that's why nobody uses it. There is no physics library available that works on a Radeon X1900 (or any later Radeon for that matter).

How is it in any way similar to suggesting PhysX is part of DX11?

It's a deceptive marketing ploy... duh?

ATi was touting DX10.1 with their previous generation cards as a selling point (another PR BS btw). There were no games using it though.

There were games using DX10.1.
Besides, even if there weren't, DX10.1 existed, and the SDK worked on the Radeons. So any developer *could* use DX10.1 if they wanted. The technology was real.
But I have a Radeon X1900XTX, and I'm a registered ATi developer... but at no point did I ever have access to any kind of physics acceleration API. It's just vapourware. And it still is. Didn't stop ATi from advertising with it though.
No matter how you try to spin it, I think nVidia's "DX11 done right" is less misleading than ATi's vapourware.
I mean, you could argue that it's nVidia's opinion that DX11 games should also use PhysX for a better gaming experience. In that sense it's not part of the DX11 API, but it is part of DX11 games. And the slogan isn't referring to the API directly, so...

 

[sandorski]

I was going to grab some pics and Photochop, but found this right away.

 

[GaiaHunter]

The technology isn't there, that's why nobody uses it. There is no physics library available that works on a Radeon X1900 (or any later Radeon for that matter).

And what does the lack of a proprietary physics library have to do with the hardware being able of accelerating a physics library?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLgb9AdnaBI

That was simply a reaction to Ageia début (NVIDIA did the same before buying it).

I know there are some people that don't know (or don't want to know) ATi cards do have the capability to accelerate physic effects, but they do. They could even do physX if it was license free for AMD (and the license fee amongst other stuff is why AMD doesn't want hardware accelerated physX to take off).

 

[Qbah]

The technology isn't there, that's why nobody uses it. There is no physics library available that works on a Radeon X1900 (or any later Radeon for that matter).



It's a deceptive marketing ploy... duh?



There were games using DX10.1.
Besides, even if there weren't, DX10.1 existed, and the SDK worked on the Radeons. So any developer *could* use DX10.1 if they wanted. The technology was real.
But I have a Radeon X1900XTX, and I'm a registered ATi developer... but at no point did I ever have access to any kind of physics acceleration API. It's just vapourware. And it still is. Didn't stop ATi from advertising with it though.
No matter how you try to spin it, I think nVidia's "DX11 done right" is less misleading than ATi's vapourware.
I mean, you could argue that it's nVidia's opinion that DX11 games should also use PhysX for a better gaming experience. In that sense it's not part of the DX11 API, but it is part of DX11 games. And the slogan isn't referring to the API directly, so...

Way to miss the entire point...

"DX11 done right" is not misleading. nVidia offers better DX11 performance as their tessellation performance is better than ATi's. It's just a fancy way of saying "we have better DX11 performance". But saying: "We have the best DX11 implementation - fastest speed, highest tessellation performance and PhysX" is wrong. And this is what I took from the EVGA's link (luckily I know better).

It's like a car advertisement saying the vehicle can fly, where the car is made by Boeing. Flying has as much to do with cars as PhysX with DX11.

Finally, why bring ATi into this? This is not about ATi, it's about EVGA's advertisement of nVidia cards. A "but they do to!" is not an excuse for anything. I understand your stance but do not agree with it. Just because ATi did it in the past doesn't excuse anyone.

 

[SirPauly]

Nah, it can get worse than that.
Some companies advertise with accelerated physics without even having an actual product supporting it at all!

Hehe!

 

[Scali]

And what does the lack of a proprietary physics library have to do with the hardware being able of accelerating a physics library?

Firstly, how do you know the hardware is really capable of it? You can't prove it.
Secondly, what hardware is and isn't capable of, is not that relevant to the end user. The end user can only use the technology when there are libraries for developers to work with (I said 'product', and that is a combination of hardware and software).
Since these libraries don't exist, developers can't create products using it, and end users will never see this technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLgb9AdnaBI

That was simply a reaction to Ageia début (NVIDIA did the same before buying it).

Ever heard of a rigged demo?
nVidia demonstrated physics before they bought PhysX, on the 8800 series.
HOWEVER, nVidia released the demo binaries to all end users. So at least they could see that the technology was real. nVidia also had some physics examples in their SDK for developers to work with.
They later acquired PhysX so they had a more complete API for developers to work with (and delivered on their promise of supporting it on the original 8800-series, although by this time they had newer and more advanced GPGPU architectures out). But at no point was nVidia's physics complete vapourware. It was tangible technology for developers and end users, unlike ATi.
Since nVidia's hardware was also considerably more advanced in terms of GPGPU, I find it hard to believe that anything prior to the 4000-series from ATi would be any good in physics acceleration compared to nVidia's offerings.

At any rate we're never going to see real physics acceleration on any pre-4000 series hardware.

 

[Scali]

Finally, why bring ATi into this?

I think the why was very clear.
You claimed "Marketing BS at its finest", so I gave an example of marketing BS of even greater magnitude (and I *deliberately* didn't even mention ATi specifically... but you asked me to explain what I meant, so I had no choice).

It's like a car advertisement saying the vehicle can fly, where the car is made by Boeing. Flying has as much to do with cars as PhysX with DX11.

I don't get this analogy.
In this case the 'car' *can* 'fly', right? I mean, the nVidia cards do everything that they say: DX11, tessellation and PhysX. Whether PhysX and DX11 have anything to do with eachother or not is irrelevant (although as I indicated, they can and do co-exist in games).

A "but they do to!" is not an excuse for anything.

It wasn't meant as an excuse for nVidia. But rather to open the eyes of people using this as an excuse for bashing nVidia/EVGA. Apparently that failed.

Heck, what does nVidia need an excuse for anyway? The 'misleading' part you claim is that it implies that DX11 and PhysX are somehow related? What's the point of that anyway? nVidia supports both DX11 and PhysX, if anything, it would be a disadvantage to imply that they belong together, because that would make people think that competing DX11 hardware can also do PhysX.
I would say that they 'dumbed it down' for the general public, rather than that they were trying to mislead them... because the misleading makes no sense from nVidia's perspective.

 

[Qbah]

I think the why was very clear.
You claimed "Marketing BS at its finest", so I gave an example of marketing BS of even greater magnitude (and I *deliberately* didn't even mention ATi specifically... but you asked me to explain what I meant, so I had no choice).

Yes I did. But your example was a competitor's advertisement. ATi did have plenty of PR BS advertisements. Which, again, has nothing to do with the topic here. Your reply implied "competition does it too".

I don't get this analogy.
In this case the 'car' *can* 'fly', right? I mean, the nVidia cards do everything that they say: DX11, tessellation and PhysX. Whether PhysX and DX11 have anything to do with eachother or not is irrelevant (although as I indicated, they can and do co-exist in games).

Seriously?
nVidia = Boeing.
Cards = vehicles.
DX11 = driving.
PhysX = flying.

"Boeing has the best driving vehicles [cars]! They are the fastest, have best breaks and can fly."

That advertisement doesn't say DX11, tess, PhysX. It says: "Best DX11 -> speed, tess, PhysX". See the difference?

It wasn't meant as an excuse for nVidia. But rather to open the eyes of people using this as an excuse for bashing nVidia/EVGA. Apparently that failed.

I'm well aware of the red team's BS And I negatively comment on those too. I guess it's fine for other people, who perhaps don't follow the market that strong. But your reply clearly said "others do it to" - that's not an excuse.

Anyway, I just don't like advertisements that are so poorly worded that they can mislead people. This is clearly the case here. I know others do it to - doesn't change anything for this particular one.

 

[Scali]

Yes I did. But your example was a competitor's advertisement. ATi did have plenty of PR BS advertisements. Which, again, has nothing to do with the topic here. Your reply implied "competition does it too".

I thought it implied "There's a lot of BS from a lot of companies, no need to make such a big deal out of it".

Seriously?
nVidia = Boeing.
Cards = vehicles.
DX11 = driving.
PhysX = flying.

"Boeing has the best driving vehicles [cars]! They are the fastest, have best breaks and can fly."

That advertisement doesn't say DX11, tess, PhysX. It says: "Best DX11 -> speed, tess, PhysX". See the difference?

So how does that make your analogy valid? Has Boeing ever made any cars? Not to my knowledge.
nVidia's 'car' can drive and fly however.
Gives me the impression that you use Boeing in your analogy to make it sound a lot more far-fetched than it is in reality.

I'm well aware of the red team's BS And I negatively comment on those too.

Yet my remark didn't ring a bell with you. And even after I pointed it out, you tried to defend ATi's BS.

But your reply clearly said "others do it to"

It didn't actually.

Anyway, I just don't like advertisements that are so poorly worded that they can mislead people. This is clearly the case here. I know others do it to - doesn't change anything for this particular one.

In this case the misleading is in no way to nVidia's advantage though.

 

[Qbah]

I thought it implied "There's a lot of BS from a lot of companies, no need to make such a big deal out of it".

Others who? DX11 cards come either from nVidia or ATi. But they don't sell cards. This one's about nVidia's partner. So it's about EVGA and not nVidia... We're talking about an advertisement from EVGA that sells nVidia cards and it's EVGA's article. So it's actually EVGA that's not really trying to be specific and clear and not nVidia. If anything, nVidia makes it very clear PhysX is not DX11 but their own unique solution (competition DX11 cards can't run it). And you replied with ATi's empty statements.

So how does that make your analogy valid? Has Boeing ever made any cars? Not to my knowledge.
nVidia's 'car' can drive and fly however.
Gives me the impression that you use Boeing in your analogy to make it sound a lot more far-fetched than it is in reality.

*sigh* A company advertising two separate technologies or solutions their products support and implying one is part of the other. Boeing doesn't make cars, so change that to Ferrari (they make both cars and planes). And if you drive a F40 fast enough off a ramp, I'm sure it will fly for a few seconds. I wrote a simple equation how it was advertised:

nVidia's DX11 = speed + tessellation + PhysX

See anything wrong? Cause I sure do.

Title: NVIDIA does DX 11 right!
Details: DirectX 11, CUDA™, and NVIDIA® PhysX®
Video: Speed / Tessellation / PhysX

Again, this is a misleading way of showing things. You can read more about it, but the first reaction: DX11 includes PhysX. At least for me. And advertisement is just that for the most part - first reaction. And this is what irked me.

Yet my remark didn't ring a bell with you. And even after I pointed it out, you tried to defend ATi's BS.

Yes it did. I just don't think it was relevant in any way. I probably shouldn't have asked for the links though.

It didn't actually.

"Some companies [others] advertise with accelerated physics without even having an actual product supporting it at all! [do it too! - mislead in advertisements]" - your line. Mine in bold.

In this case the misleading is in no way to nVidia's advantage though.

It's EVGA, not nVidia. And no advantage for nVidia, as it puts them in a bad light (their partner spreading BS) - this one I agree with.

Finally, this is getting ridiculous. You agree it's misleading to Joe Average? Because the misleading is clear for me. And this is my comment on the linked article.

EDIT: See, if XFX wrote "ATi's DX11 = speed + tessellation + Eyefinity" I would be equally upset about it-

 

[SirPauly]

I don't know.

First sentence:

Next-generation gaming has arrived. NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 400 series gives your games an adrenaline shot with the world’s fastest performance and futuristic, visually-stunning graphics. Experience heart-pounding, cinematic visuals on your favorite games with the combined power of DirectX 11, CUDA™, and NVIDIA® PhysX® technologies. And expand your visual real estate across three HD displays in jaw-dropping stereoscopic 3D for the ultimate in immersive gaming. NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 400 Series: pure adrenaline meets visual bliss.

I think the message is about the combined power of the 4XX series and showed some examples of why DirectX 11 was done right.

 

[Genx87]

Are people really getting their panties in a bunch over marketing speak?

 

[Scali]

Others who? DX11 cards come either from nVidia or ATi.

I never said it was specific to DX11 cards or anything.
I can name plenty of examples... like for example Intel claiming that MMX gave you a better internet experience.
But I thought since we were on the topic of physics, this one was appropriate (and it was a DX9 card).

nVidia's DX11 = speed + tessellation + PhysX

See anything wrong? Cause I sure do.

nVidia's DX11 cards have speed, tessellation and PhysX. Where's the problem?

Again, this is a misleading way of showing things. You can read more about it, but the first reaction: DX11 includes PhysX. At least for me. And advertisement is just that for the most part - first reaction. And this is what irked me.

Well, get over yourself then

Yes it did. I just don't think it was relevant in any way. I probably shouldn't have asked for the links though.

Uhuh...

"Some companies [others] advertise with accelerated physics without even having an actual product supporting it at all! [do it too! - mislead in advertisements]" - your line. Mine in bold.

Again, this is YOUR interpretation of the statement.
Which is clearly wrong, because my statement doesn't say 'does it too', but 'it can get worse'. And it was a response to 'at its finest'.
As I already said, it should read like "Don't make such a big deal out of this". Not my fault that you're a one-dimensional thinker. Here's some stuff for you to read: http://scalibq.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!663AD9A4F9CB0661!359.entry

It's EVGA, not nVidia.

The "DX11 done right" and "Nsist on nVidia" are nVidia's slogans afaik, so I wouldn't be surprised if most of what EVGA wrote originated from nVidia.

 

[Dribble]

Are people really getting their panties in a bunch over marketing speak?

+1

It's obviously a quiet time, but some people almost seem contractually obliged to bash nvidia regularly, so gotta find some excuse I suppose.

 

[Qbah]

Obviously talking about a misleading advertisement is something not worth discussing, for you and for some people. I don't like those advertisements, neither do plenty other people. And we talk about it (hey, here's a thought, forums are for that). If it's not a big deal for you, why did you bother to reply? And who's the one-dimensional thinker? You countered with an ATi example (and missed my whole point at the same time).

I can see why it's not a big deal to some people ("others do it too, who cares?" or "I don't really pay much attention to advertisements"). I can also see why it might be discussion-worthy for others (mostly for ripping less knowledgeable people off).

Finally, I do my fair share of bashing both nVidia and ATi for their missteps, idiotic statements or poor decisions.

Also, you might want to not link to your own articles when trying to show a healthy approach during discussions By promoting your take on something, you already show bias.

 

[exar333]

New slogan should be:

"DX11 done late, done right".



FYI - I don't mind nvidia, but the marketing of EVGA is pretty funny....

 

[Scali]

And who's the one-dimensional thinker? You countered with an ATi example (and missed my whole point at the same time).

You are. And you reinforce it once again. I didn't even mention the word 'ATi' in my post. Yet you can't look past the brand names, and as such completely miss the point I'm making.
Yes, nVidia and ATi are competitors, but that does not mean that there is any relevance of that fact to the point that I was making. But this is what you as a one-dimensional thinker cannot comprehend.

Also, you might want to not link to your own articles when trying to show a healthy approach during discussions By promoting your take on something, you already show bias.

What bias? Did you even bother to read it? Did you understand it? It's not related to this discussion at all. It just points out that a lot of tech people have a very narrow perspective, and as such have impaired judgement and understanding. And it's not my take, it's Bell's take.

 

[Qbah]

You are.

no u D:

And you reinforce it once again. I didn't even mention the word 'ATi' in my post. Yet you can't look past the brand names, and as such completely miss the point I'm making.
Yes, nVidia and ATi are competitors, but that does not mean that there is any relevance of that fact to the point that I was making. But this is what you as a one-dimensional thinker cannot comprehend.

What bias? Did you even bother to read it? Did you understand it? It's not related to this discussion at all. It just points out that a lot of tech people have a very narrow perspective, and as such have impaired judgement and understanding. And it's not my take, it's Bell's take.

blablabla - so you skipped over my entire post, explaining why I even bothered to reply to the OP (so on-topic) and replied, focused on:

- me trying to show that I can have a more distanced look at things (as you called me one-dimensional)
- you defending your own work, which you link to when trying to reinforce your point (no I did not read it, first paragraph is enough)

Nothing even remotely connected with the thread.

Now, Scali, focus - this is EVGA we're talking about and their "buy our products" advertisement. This has nothing to do with nVidia or AMD. Though I'm sure nVidia did advise them on what to focus on (as any decent vendor does). But in the end it's EVGA's PR department that went through the items and came up with the linked advertisement. How does you saying "not a big deal, others do it too" and then backing it up with something not really related, add to anything, I have no idea.

 

[Scali]

- me trying to show that I can have a more distanced look at things (as you called me one-dimensional)

As I said, you tried and failed.

- you defending your own work, which you link to when trying to reinforce your point (no I did not read it, first paragraph is enough)

More fail. The first few paragraphs are what is known in the writer's world as an 'introduction'. The meat of the article follows later. You probably didn't even make it as far as the Bell-part that I was referring to (which is another article that you should be reading, mine was merely my response upon reading it).

How does you saying "not a big deal, others do it too" and then backing it up with something not really related, add to anything, I have no idea.

Because you don't get it.
For the last time, I didn't say "others do it too", I said "I've seen much much MUCH worse than this... this is nothing, a minor 'dumbing down' of the facts, what are you making such a big fuss about?"

 

[SirPauly]

imho,

I don't see this nefarious, evil and marketing BS. Just because the title said DirectX 11 done right -- doesn't mean a marketing page can't discuss other abilities considering the context is the 4XX series and trying to make aware a combined effort of nVidia's feature sets.

It clearly offers this on the very first sentence. nVidia probably feels that DirectX 11, GPU physics and Stereo3d are important for next generational content and why they're trying for the combined ploy or you can have it all strategy. Some individuals may disagree with this.

They would do a disservice by not trying to make consumers aware. Granted this is EVGA but they are selling nVidia's strengths and abilities.

Think this is an example of reading too much into something and ignoring the very first sentence.

 

[OCGuy]

People are seriously upset by this?

Go outside and take a breath of fresh air. Maybe even try talking to a member of the opposite (or same, if you roll that way) sex.

 

[Scali]

Think this is an example of reading too much into something and ignoring the very first sentence.

Exactly... especially with Qbah it's clear that in his world, his interpretation is the only possible correct interpretation... Even if the author himself tries to correct him, he just sticks to his own incorrect interpretation. Lost cause.

 

[Qbah]

Exactly... especially with Qbah it's clear that in his world, his interpretation is the only possible correct interpretation... Even if the author himself tries to correct him, he just sticks to his own incorrect interpretation. Lost cause.

Not once did I even hint at the fact that my way of looking at it is the only proper and valid one. I presented the way I understood it and how I think many people may.

What I did point out is you not really sticking to the thread's topic, replying to not related post parts (which are mostly supporting comments) while skipping the on-topic main points.

Ohh and in case you've missed it - "others do it too" is a weaker version of "I've seen much worse". By confirming you've seen worse behaviors, you also confirm that others do it too. So me not being more critical about different PR blunders is actually me being more lenient about those things. Or I may actually have a different view on what is more severe. Or there's no level of severity for blunders for me.

Since this situation seems trivial to you and you don't really think it's worth discussing, why do you even bother replying?

 

[Scali]

Not once did I even hint at the fact that my way of looking at it is the only proper and valid one. I presented the way I understood it and how I think many people may.

Then why did I have to repeat myself at least three times?

What I did point out is you not really sticking to the thread's topic, replying to not related post parts (which are mostly supporting comments) while skipping the on-topic main points.

In case you didn't realize, I never found the topic itself worth discussing. I've given some arguments, and that's it. Then you started harping on the ATi stuff all the time, forcing me to reply to the off-topic bits.

Ohh and in case you've missed it - "others do it too" is a weaker version of "I've seen much worse". By confirming you've seen worse behaviors, you also confirm that others do it too.

The perspective (there's that word again) is completely different however.
As you yourself said, with "others do it too", you're trying to excuse nVidia's behaviour.
But that was not my intention.
My intention was to put this marketing material in relation to other 'dubious' marketing material, and point out that this isn't really worth discussing in the greater scheme of things.
It may not be phrased ENTIRELY the way you like it, but as I said, DX11, speed, tessellation, PhysX... the EVGA nVidia products they're promoting, have it all. So what's the big deal? It's not exactly a misrepresentation of the facts.
As I tried to point out, I think it's a much bigger deal when they're trying to advertise with something that they DON'T have.

Since this situation seems trivial to you and you don't really think it's worth discussing, why do you even bother replying?

If you had bothered to read my blog, you would have known.

 

[Keysplayr]

Guys..... Are you really REALLY doing this utter dissection of each others every syllable?
Please knock it off. Things like this really help bring the forum down.
Thanks,
Anandtech Moderator - Keysplayr