'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower

[irishScott]

Birth rates like ours (below replacement) have never ended with anything other than societal collapse. Factor in the birth rate of the kind of people that hate our society, and we're boned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20587554

 

[Darwin333]

-snip-


They can. 95% of 1,000,000,000,000 though is still a really large number. Now you need the people to handle that. Then another set of people to handle their output. How big of a workforce do you want to have, how much security overhead do you want to have watching those people?

Chuck

Ok, lets use a rather direct analogy. Lets say the Feds mandate that every single room in your house must have a smoke detector and in that smoke detector it must have a camera wired that sends the NSA a live feed of your house at all times. If its disabled in anyway they get an automatic notice and you go to jail so thats not an option.

Now, all that video is massively harder to sift through via computer or person than emails and text messages so the chances anyone EVER looking at you and your family or beating off to your wife in the shower is virtually zero. Are you just as ok with that?

 

[Smoblikat]

We live in a country where the president has killed American citizens without trial and nearly nobody cared. So why would anybody care about reading email?

Thats like...........true. There really isnt an ything more to be said here. We Americans are a bunch of dumb lazy fucks that dont care about anything other than stuffing our faces with poisoned food and fluoridated water.

 

[chucky2]

Ok, lets use a rather direct analogy. Lets say the Feds mandate that every single room in your house must have a smoke detector and in that smoke detector it must have a camera wired that sends the NSA a live feed of your house at all times. If its disabled in anyway they get an automatic notice and you go to jail so thats not an option.

Now, all that video is massively harder to sift through via computer or person than emails and text messages so the chances anyone EVER looking at you and your family or beating off to your wife in the shower is virtually zero. Are you just as ok with that?

No, I'd not be OK with it because they're viewing me inside my own home. Same with vehicle. Communication is not the same as watching my wife and/or kid(s) walk around in underwear.

I get absolutely what you're talking about, and your analogy is a good one, I just think monitoring communication is far less intrusive than monitoring me taking a sh1t.

Chuck

 

[3chordcharlie]

A lot of those cameras are privately owned, and I'd say most people have always been more interested in the lottery than who's in government. If anything we have ready access to more information about our government now than at any other time in history.

Just look at wikileaks. Something like that would have been utterly impossible not 10 years ago. Or fuck-ups like Fast and Furious, which before the internet would likely have simply had no exposure to speak of.

Essentially most of the sum of human knowledge is available and readily searchable to the average citizen, within seconds. The 1984ish scenarios center on governments controlling literally all information. Well now the task of doing so has multiplied by a few dozen orders of magnitude.

And yet governments are less open all the time, and in particular there is a concerted effort to concentrate power and decision making in the 'office of the leader' rather than in the elected parliaments/councils/senates of the democratic world.

Privacy has been under constant attack since before 9/11, and 10-fold since then.

The world doesn't usually change overnight, but the overall direction of the change over the last 20 years is towards less transparency, less liberty, less democracy.

Wikileaks was a particular and I think positive happening. Look how the governments of the world handled it. FUD, a trumped up rape charge, ruining the guys life. How much longer will the next guy think before acting on information like this?

 

[irishScott]

And yet governments are less open all the time, and in particular there is a concerted effort to concentrate power and decision making in the 'office of the leader' rather than in the elected parliaments/councils/senates of the democratic world.

Privacy has been under constant attack since before 9/11, and 10-fold since then.

The world doesn't usually change overnight, but the overall direction of the change over the last 20 years is towards less transparency, less liberty, less democracy.

Wikileaks was a particular and I think positive happening. Look how the governments of the world handled it. FUD, a trumped up rape charge, ruining the guys life. How much longer will the next guy think before acting on information like this?

That's debatable. Actually the senate judiciary committee recently amended a bill to require a warrant for email access (which is the exact opposite of the bill's original language). Yes 9/11 scared people into giving up some privacy, but no more than the Red Scare of yesteryears.

As for wikileaks, come on, how did you expect governments react to the release of thousands upon thousands of pieces of sensitive information? Were they supposed to humbly admit defeat and slink away? You piss off scores of influential people around the world, all at the same time, at least one of them is going to come bite you in the ass. That's just reality and has been since we were apes. Never mind that what wikileaks o did was illegal.

Also, you think what governments did is a modern phenomenon, what do you think J. Edgar Hoover would have done to wikileaks in the 50s? Far more than 20 years ago.

I'd say the overall trend over the last 20 years has been towards larger government. And you can expand that into the overall trend over the last 200 years. There are pros and cons to this that will be dealt with as they come up. Problems will arise and won't be dealt with until they're right on top of us, like they always have been.

It's all a matter of perspective. The US has never been a perfect nation and never will be. We're flawed, severely. And it bites us repeatably. But it bites us less than most, and we're flawed less severely than most, which is why we're the greatest nation on earth IMO. There was never an American "golden age" that we've somehow lost. There were good times and bad times, like there always have been and always will be. Nothing more.

 

[Darwin333]

No, I'd not be OK with it because they're viewing me inside my own home. Same with vehicle. Communication is not the same as watching my wife and/or kid(s) walk around in underwear.

I get absolutely what you're talking about, and your analogy is a good one, I just think monitoring communication is far less intrusive than monitoring me taking a sh1t.

Chuck

But here is my point, they have FAR more capability to monitor your communication than they do of you taking a shit. The possibility of you ending up on the "human eyes needed list" with communications is vastly higher than your chances of anybody EVER viewing a video feed from your house.

And I completely disagree about the "far less intrusive" part. I would much prefer somoene have the ability to see me taking a shit than to monitor my communications. One is, in the scheme of things, rather irrelevant and the other is absurdly important if you actually discuss important things as I do.

Hell, we are talking about the ability to quite literally blackmail our lawmakers if the article is correct. Corporate espionage, blackmailing citizens, all kinds of shit are possible and if they are smart enough to only use it when they have their target by the short and curlys no one will ever dare come out about it lest their secret be revealed. Unless of course you can point me to the actual oversight that is in place?

 

[chucky2]

Simple question to you:

You have the option of a human getting traffic flagged traffic collected from you. You can choose one of two things: He reads your NewEgg order confirmation, or, he watches your wife walking around the house naked.

Which one one of those two systems do you want to see enacted?

Chuck

 

[Darwin333]

Simple question to you:

You have the option of a human getting traffic flagged traffic collected from you. You can choose one of two things: He reads your NewEgg order confirmation, or, he watches your wife walking around the house naked.

Which one one of those two systems do you want to see enacted?

Chuck

You see, that is exactly the difference between someone like you and someone like me. You are perfectly willing to allow it to be an "either or" situation.

I think both situations are absolutely 100% unacceptable and they never will be with me. I actually believe in that freedom stuff, I wish more people did.

 

[Darwin333]

And yet governments are less open all the time, and in particular there is a concerted effort to concentrate power and decision making in the 'office of the leader' rather than in the elected parliaments/councils/senates of the democratic world.

Privacy has been under constant attack since before 9/11, and 10-fold since then.

The world doesn't usually change overnight, but the overall direction of the change over the last 20 years is towards less transparency, less liberty, less democracy.

Wikileaks was a particular and I think positive happening. Look how the governments of the world handled it. FUD, a trumped up rape charge, ruining the guys life. How much longer will the next guy think before acting on information like this?

I am pretty darn sure that was the point....

 

[chucky2]

You see, that is exactly the difference between someone like you and someone like me. You are perfectly willing to allow it to be an "either or" situation.

I think both situations are absolutely 100% unacceptable and they never will be with me. I actually believe in that freedom stuff, I wish more people did.

I'd like for the former to be unacceptable, I just don't know how we reconcile modern communication and those that are out to F us using it with the Constitution. In a perfect world we'd know that no one in the US or any US citizen would use these means to plot against the US/US citizens, so we'd never have any need for these monitoring systems to exist. We know that is not the case. Where to go from there?

I'm fine with a monitoring system, with proper select Congresssional oversight, with the Congress critters and The Media actually held to punishments when things are improperly leaked (as they have been...I'd go with life imprisonment or death for intentional leakage/publication, but I'm sure some middle ground can be found), and leave that as the best modern compromise between National Secuity and US Public Privacy.

If what they say is true, all my e-mails have been intercepted by this system. I feel in no way violated, despite the private nature of some of them. A soulless computer and outside chance an overworked analyst? Far far bigger fish to fry...

Chuck

 

[Darwin333]

I'd like for the former to be unacceptable, I just don't know how we reconcile modern communication and those that are out to F us using it with the Constitution. In a perfect world we'd know that no one in the US or any US citizen would use these means to plot against the US/US citizens, so we'd never have any need for these monitoring systems to exist. We know that is not the case. Where to go from there?

First, you are part of the problem and not the solution and you are actually aware of the situation, that is not a good thing.

We are at greater risk of dying from lightning strikes than from some terrorist plot. Sure I agree they should be targeting people they have a good idea might want to attack us but to start giving up essential liberty for the illusion of a little bit of safety is simply unacceptable to me and it should be just as unacceptable to you as well. Any idiot that is plotting something like blowing shit up in the US would use readily avaible and very easy to use encryption software for their communications.

I'm fine with a monitoring system, with proper select Congresssional oversight, with the Congress critters and The Media actually held to punishments when things are improperly leaked (as they have been...I'd go with life imprisonment or death for intentional leakage/publication, but I'm sure some middle ground can be found), and leave that as the best modern compromise between National Secuity and US Public Privacy.

With a "monitoring system"? Are you talking about this specific system, as in having the ability to record all of your "digital life" as well as things like text messages without a warrant? Have you ever read the 4th amendment? Do you really believe that it doesn't apply in this case or do you just not care about blatant violations of our rights? I know that this isn't the first erosion of our rights nor will it likely be the last but at what point do you and everyone else finally stand up and say NO MORE?

If what they say is true, all my e-mails have been intercepted by this system. I feel in no way violated, despite the private nature of some of them. A soulless computer and outside chance an overworked analyst? Far far bigger fish to fry...

Chuck

Sigh, you simply further proved my point although I wish it wasn't so. As I keep asking, whats the difference between what I bolded and a video of your wife bathing? Its the exact same to the "soulless computer and overworked analyst".

No offense but it is people exactly like you that are the reason the .gov gets away with slowly but surely eroding our rights. YOU don't feel violated right now so its no big deal. At such time that YOU feel violated it might be an important enough issue for you to actually agree with the Constitution but until then you seem to care about our rights and the Constitution just as much as the asshole critters we have in DC.

I wish you and others like you would realize the sad reality which is that by the time you do actually care it will almost assuredly be too late.

Oh, one last thing:

the best modern compromise between National Secuity and US Public Privacy

You are incorrect, it isn't a compromise for our privacy it is an erosion of our Constitutional rights. At least admit that when you discuss it instead of trying to sugar coat it as just a simple matter of privacy.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[chucky2]

Ok, that's fine. Then dismantle such programs, an basically open the floodgates of having about zero way to track those that would do us harm. Next time there's an attack that this system could have helped prevent, I expect your only response to the love ones of those killed/maimed to be: 'Better your people got F'd then "The Government" read my NewEgg order confirmation. 4th FTW!' Make sure to go tell some crushed 6 year old that to their face.

You're married? If you are, tonight, go ask your wife if she had to pick one, which one would she rather pick:

Me getting a copy of your new NewEgg e-mail, or me showing up and watching her shower. I've got a sneaking suspicion about how she'll answer, but according to you, she's going to really hem and haw over answering you because they are in fact equal things.

This is 2012, not 1800.

Chuck

 

[Naeeldar]

This is 2012, not 1800.

Chuck

That's the biggest piece right there. People act like something that was written a couple hundred years ago is going to apply perfectly in the world we know today. Do you really think that our forefathers could understand exactly what the world was to become? I doubt they could even understand what a few men with machine guns could do to a small army let alone the power of bombs and chemical warfare today.

The other piece is people like Darwin seem to underestimate what an attack like 9/11 does morally to our country. There was also enough evidence that later shows up electronically that could have prevented an attack but it takes a lot of manpower to get through the data and sometimes time we don't.

The amendments were primarily put in place to prevent tyranny of a king like entity. With proper oversight we can avoid tyranny. The big piece is where do you fall on security vs freedom. As freedom increases - security decreases. The way of the world but personally I could care less if people monitor my communications. I'm also smart enough to know they could hack my accounts quite easily also.

 

[Triumph]

That's the biggest piece right there. People act like something that was written a couple hundred years ago is going to apply perfectly in the world we know today. Do you really think that our forefathers could understand exactly what the world was to become? I doubt they could even understand what a few men with machine guns could do to a small army let alone the power of bombs and chemical warfare today.

The other piece is people like Darwin seem to underestimate what an attack like 9/11 does morally to our country. There was also enough evidence that later shows up electronically that could have prevented an attack but it takes a lot of manpower to get through the data and sometimes time we don't.

The amendments were primarily put in place to prevent tyranny of a king like entity. With proper oversight we can avoid tyranny. The big piece is where do you fall on security vs freedom. As freedom increases - security decreases. The way of the world but personally I could care less if people monitor my communications. I'm also smart enough to know they could hack my accounts quite easily also.

I assume you're referring to the 4th amendment. Listen, the bill of rights is a contract, that is the proper way to interpret it. It says what it says, and if you don't like it because you think today's world is different or whatever, then there are ways for you to petition that it be changed. But contracts don't get changed based on what is convenient at the moment. You and chucky may be OK with this, but it doesn't meet the requirements of the contract. It is illegal to monitor your telephone or snail mail without a warrant, why should my personal email be any different? Just because it's convenient now? Then go change the 4th amendment if that is how you feel.

 

[cirrrocco]

Don't want to steer the awesome thread off topic, but if I ever delete an important email by mistake, I am going to semail NSA to forward me an archive of the deleted email.

Great points everyone btw!!!

 

[Pray To Jesus]

The terrorists already won. GG

Edit: Oh shit. . . . I'm on their radar now.

 

[Naeeldar]

I assume you're referring to the 4th amendment. Listen, the bill of rights is a contract, that is the proper way to interpret it. It says what it says, and if you don't like it because you think today's world is different or whatever, then there are ways for you to petition that it be changed. But contracts don't get changed based on what is convenient at the moment. You and chucky may be OK with this, but it doesn't meet the requirements of the contract. It is illegal to monitor your telephone or snail mail without a warrant, why should my personal email be any different? Just because it's convenient now? Then go change the 4th amendment if that is how you feel.

Ahh yes so the 4th amendment called out specifically telephones and e-mail? The contract you are referencing are very broad for a reason. Specifically there is a reason why we setup judges so that they could INTERPRET the law. Your interpretation that what applies to telephones should apply to e-mail is still an interpretation. There is no clear violation. And that's the point of this debate entirely.

At the end of the day though we have an entire branch of govt designed to interpret the law. And specifically you have the Supreme Court in cases like this.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Ok, that's fine. Then dismantle such programs, an basically open the floodgates of having about zero way to track those that would do us harm. Next time there's an attack that this system could have helped prevent, I expect your only response to the love ones of those killed/maimed to be: 'Better your people got F'd then "The Government" read my NewEgg order confirmation. 4th FTW!' Make sure to go tell some crushed 6 year old that to their face.

You're married? If you are, tonight, go ask your wife if she had to pick one, which one would she rather pick:

Me getting a copy of your new NewEgg e-mail, or me showing up and watching her shower. I've got a sneaking suspicion about how she'll answer, but according to you, she's going to really hem and haw over answering you because they are in fact equal things.

This is 2012, not 1800.

Chuck

This is extremely shortsighted. They aren't just reading your order confirmation they have been capturing every communication(voice & data) encrypted or otherwise and storing in a vast datacenter they built in UTAH for at least a decade.(http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/)

They then plan to decrypt all voice and data communications and build an extensive and extremely detailed life long dossier and profile of every single person. They will then be able to using predictive algorithms identify "problems" and pre-crime and thought crime will be born.

And there you have it...the utopia you yearn for is here.

 

[chucky2]

Precogs after that, right?

 

[BoberFett]

Ok, that's fine. Then dismantle such programs, an basically open the floodgates of having about zero way to track those that would do us harm. Next time there's an attack that this system could have helped prevent, I expect your only response to the love ones of those killed/maimed to be: 'Better your people got F'd then "The Government" read my NewEgg order confirmation. 4th FTW!' Make sure to go tell some crushed 6 year old that to their face.

You're married? If you are, tonight, go ask your wife if she had to pick one, which one would she rather pick:

Me getting a copy of your new NewEgg e-mail, or me showing up and watching her shower. I've got a sneaking suspicion about how she'll answer, but according to you, she's going to really hem and haw over answering you because they are in fact equal things.

This is 2012, not 1800.

Chuck

I'm far more likely to be harmed by my own government than I am by a terrorist.

True story.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Precogs after that, right?

lol!

I would say the one real problem I have with this whole scenario is the ease with which this type of evidence could be falsified. I mean how easy would it be to just set someone up with a bunch of fake emails? I bet a large number of posters in here could do it.

 

[chucky2]

That's exactly the problem. "They'd" have to prove you sent those e-mails, or have real reason to believe you really are sending them to start real surveillance, that is, surveillance with real (limited) human assets. If the filters were set to low/bad that real abuse was happening, the abuse would be on a huge scale. Not only that, the information volume to their real human assets would balloon incredibly.

Want to be mad at something, spend your time working against? Be mad that our Politicians are willfully allowing - for decades - illegals by the Millions to come in and take jobs and depress wages from the own citizenry they're elected by and sworn to protect.

That is something to be seriously mad about. This? E-mail? Yeah, it sucks. But spending time and energy fighting it when there's are bigger things to tackle and the intrusion is so transperant? Nah...

Chuck

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Be mad that our Politicians are willfully allowing - for decades - illegals by the Millions to come in and take jobs and depress wages from the own citizenry they're elected by and sworn to protect.

Agreed.

 

[Triumph]

Ahh yes so the 4th amendment called out specifically telephones and e-mail? The contract you are referencing are very broad for a reason. Specifically there is a reason why we setup judges so that they could INTERPRET the law. Your interpretation that what applies to telephones should apply to e-mail is still an interpretation. There is no clear violation. And that's the point of this debate entirely.

Are you arguing that tapping phone and snail mail lines is different than taping email lines?